Which is larger, Graham's number or

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around comparing the size of Graham's number with the factorial of the estimated number of atoms in the universe, denoted as (1080)!. Participants explore various large numbers and their relationships, including the Arildno number and TREE(3), within the context of mathematical concepts and growth hierarchies.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express curiosity about whether Graham's number is larger than (1080)!.
  • One participant suggests that (1080)! is less than 108*1081, implying it is smaller than g1.
  • Another participant notes that Graham's number is g64, emphasizing its vastness compared to (1080)!.
  • The Arildno number is introduced as being greater than Graham's number, defined as Graham's number + 1, although some participants challenge its meaningfulness.
  • One participant brings up TREE(3) and its lower bound, which is stated to be larger than Graham's number, but still much smaller than TREE(3) itself.
  • Further discussion includes the fast-growing hierarchy and various large ordinals, with some participants expressing difficulty in understanding the details of these concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the comparison of Graham's number and (1080)!, and there are competing views regarding the significance of the Arildno number and the implications of TREE(3) in relation to Graham's number.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on specific definitions and assumptions about large numbers and growth rates, which may not be universally accepted or understood. The discussion includes references to mathematical concepts that are complex and not fully resolved within the thread.

MathJakob
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This isn't a homework problem or anything just simply curious. Which is a larger number, Graham's number or the estimated number of atoms in the universe factorial?

So Graham's number or ##(10^{80})!##
 
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Well, as an upper bound, \left(10^{80}\right)! < \left(10^{80}\right)^{\left(10^{80}\right)} = 10^{80 * 10^{80}} = 10^{8*10^{81}}

which, if I am not mistaken, is far less than g_1.
 
So ##(10^{80})!## isn't even as large as g1... and Graham's number is g64... WOW
 
The Arildno number is even greater:

Arildno number =Graham's number+1.

Can I also get a WOW! from you?
:smile:
 
arildno said:
The Arildno number is even greater:

Arildno number =Graham's number+1.

Can I also get a WOW! from you?
:smile:

No. Your number is meaningless, it's never been used in any meaningful way.
 
MathJakob said:
No. Your number is meaningless, it's never been used in any meaningful way.

:cry:
 
Sorry to link to wikipedia, but you may be interested in TREE(3), and I can't find too much info on it.

an extremely weak lower bound for TREE(3), is A(A(...A(1)...)), where the number of As is A(187196)

Graham's number, for example, is approximately A^64(4) which is much smaller than the lower bound A^(A(187196))(1).
A is the Ackermann function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal's_tree_theorem
 
MathJakob said:
This isn't a homework problem or anything just simply curious. Which is a larger number, Graham's number or the estimated number of atoms in the universe factorial?

So Graham's number or ##(10^{80})!##

Tip: if you can write out the number in any "normal" way, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay smaller than Graham's number.
 
What's amusing is that the above lower bound for TREE(3) is SO much smaller than TREE(3) that it gives people the wrong idea about it's size. Although the lower bound is larger than Graham's number, it's still at about the level ω+1 in the fast-growing hierarchy. TREE(3), on the other hand, is higher than the Small Veblen Ordinal in the fast-growing hierarchy, which is MUCH larger!
 
  • #10
Deedlit said:
What's amusing is that the above lower bound for TREE(3) is SO much smaller than TREE(3) that it gives people the wrong idea about it's size. Although the lower bound is larger than Graham's number, it's still at about the level ω+1 in the fast-growing hierarchy. TREE(3), on the other hand, is higher than the Small Veblen Ordinal in the fast-growing hierarchy, which is MUCH larger!

It seems the Arildno number is a dwarf, after all..
 
  • #11
arildno said:
It seems the Arildno number is a dwarf, after all..

Poor thing, the Arildno number is coming under lots of fire in here!

Deedlit said:
What's amusing is that the above lower bound for TREE(3) is SO much smaller than TREE(3) that it gives people the wrong idea about it's size. Although the lower bound is larger than Graham's number, it's still at about the level ω+1 in the fast-growing hierarchy. TREE(3), on the other hand, is higher than the Small Veblen Ordinal in the fast-growing hierarchy, which is MUCH larger!

I haven't really been able to find any sources that explain some of the larger operators in the fast growing hierarchy. For example,

http://googology.wikia.com/wiki/Fast-growing_hierarchy

gives a list of growth rates, but there's a lot of details being left out. Sadly, I only understand how to calculate up to and including f_{\epsilon_0}(n).

And to do so, I use a calculator of course :biggrin:
 
  • #12
Good to see you found the Googology Wiki!

Beyond \varepsilon_0 we have:

\varepsilon_1 = \varepsilon_0 ^ {\varepsilon_0 ^ {\varepsilon_0 ^\ddots}}

\varepsilon_2 = \varepsilon_1 ^ {\varepsilon_1 ^ {\varepsilon_1 ^\ddots}}

\varepsilon_\omega = \sup \lbrace \varepsilon_0, \varepsilon_1, \varepsilon_2, \ldots \rbrace

and so on. Eventually we get to

\zeta_0 = \varepsilon_{\varepsilon_{\varepsilon_\cdots}}

We can set \varphi(0, \alpha) = \omega^\alpha, \varphi(1, \alpha) = \varepsilon_\alpha, \varphi(2, \alpha) = \zeta_\alpha. More generally,

\varphi(\alpha+1, \beta) = the \betath fixed point of f(\gamma) = \varphi(\alpha, \gamma).

When \alpha is a limit ordinal, \varphi(\alpha, \beta) is the \betath ordinal in the intersection in the ranges of f(\delta) = \varphi(\gamma, \delta) for all \gamma < \alpha.

So, for example,

\varphi(3, 0) = \varphi(2, \varphi(2, \varphi(2, \ldots)))

\varphi(\omega, 0) = \sup (\varphi(1, 0), \varphi (2, 0), \varphi (3, 0), \ldots)

and so on. This takes us up to

\Gamma_0 = \varphi(\varphi(\varphi(\ldots, 0),0),0)

or alternatively, \Gamma_0 is the smallest ordinal \alpha such that \alpha = \varphi(\alpha, 0).

We can continue the notation with \varphi(1, 0, 0) = \Gamma_0, and \varphi(1, 0, \alpha) is the \alphath fixed point of f(\beta) = \varphi(\beta, 0).

The ordinals \varphi (1, \alpha, \beta) are defined analogously to \varphi(\alpha, \beta), i.e. each function f(\beta) = \varphi (1, \alpha+1, \beta) enumerates the fixed points of g(\beta) = \varphi(1, \alpha, \beta), and at limit ordinals you enumerate the intersection of the ranges of previous ordinals. Then \varphi(2, 0, \alpha) is the \alphath fixed point of f(\beta) = \varphi(1, \beta, 0), and you can construct the hierarchy \varphi(2, \alpha, \beta) similarly. At limit ordinals you take the intersection of the ranges again, and so we define \varphi (\alpha, \beta, \gamma) for all ordinals \alpha, \beta, \gamma. Then we can define

\varphi (1, 0, 0, \alpha) to be the \alphath fixed point of f(\beta) = \varphi(\beta, 0, 0).

We can then define \varphi(\alpha, \beta, \gamma, \delta), \varphi(\alpha, \beta, \gamma, \delta, \epsilon), and so on. The general definition for the n-ary Veblen funciton is:

\varphi (\alpha) = \omega^{\alpha}

\varphi (\alpha_1, \alpha_2, \ldots, \alpha_n + 1, 0, \ldots, 0, \beta) is the \betath fixed point of the function f(\gamma) = \varphi(\alpha_1, \alpha_2, \ldots, \alpha_n, \gamma, 0, \ldots, 0)

When \alpha_n is a limit ordinal, \varphi (\alpha_1, \alpha_2, \ldots, \alpha_n, 0, \ldots, 0, \beta) is the \betath ordinal in the intersection of the ranges of f(\delta) = \varphi(\alpha_1, \alpha_2, \ldots, \alpha_{n-1}, \gamma, \delta, 0, \ldots, 0) for all \gamma < \alpha_n.

We define the Small Veblen Ordinal as

\sup (\varphi (1, 0), \varphi(1, 0, 0), \varphi(1, 0, 0), \ldots).

TREE(n) is larger than the fast-growing hierarchy at the level of the Small Veblen Ordinal. (how much further is not known.).

I'll go one step further: we can extend the n-ary Veblen function to transfinitely many places. Obviously, we can't write out transfinitely many variables, so we need to modify our notation: instead of

\varphi(\alpha, \beta, \gamma, \delta, \epsilon)

we write

\varphi(\alpha @ 4, \beta @ 3, \gamma @ 2, \delta @ 1, \epsilon @ 0).

So we append "@ n" to every variable, where n represents the index of the variable. This allows us to skip variables that are 0, and so we can notate things like \varphi (1 @ \omega, \alpha @ 0). \varphi(1 @ \omega, \alpha @ 0) is defined as the \alphath ordinal that is a fixed point of f(\beta) = \varphi (\beta @ n) for all n < \omega.

More generally, we define

\varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n + 1 @ \beta_n + 1, \gamma @ 0) is the \gammath fixed point of f(\delta) = \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n @ \beta_n + 1, \delta @ \beta_n)

When \alpha_n is a limit ordinal, \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n @ \beta_n + 1, \gamma @ 0) is the \gammath ordinal in the intersection of the ranges of f(\epsilon) = \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \delta @ \beta_n + 1, \epsilon @ \beta_n) for all \delta < \alpha_n

When \beta_n is a limit ordinal, \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n + 1 @ \beta_n, \gamma @ 0) is the \gammath ordinal in the intersection of the ranges of f(\epsilon) = \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n @ \beta_n, \epsilon @ \delta) for all \delta < \beta_n

When \alpha_n and \beta_n are limit ordinals, \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \alpha_n @ \beta_n, \gamma @ 0 is the \gammath ordinal in the intersection of the ranges of f(\zeta) = \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \alpha_2 @ \beta_2, \ldots, \delta @ \beta_n, \zeta @ \epsilon) for all \delta < \alpha_n, \epsilon < \beta_n

This defines \varphi(\alpha_1 @ \beta_1, \ldots, \alpha_n @ \beta_n) for all \alpha_i and \beta_i. This notation is known as Schutte's Klammersymbolen.

The smallest ordinal \alpha such that \alpha = \varphi (1 @ \alpha) is known as the Large Veblen Ordinal. I would think that TREE(n) would not reach the Large Veblen Ordinal in the fast-growing hierarchy, but I don't think this is known.

Phew! I hope this was at least somewhat comprehensible.
 

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