Who influenced Breivik to commit his heinous act?

[Evo]

There you go on about the experimental prison system again.

So, show me their bad prisons.

 

[arildno]

I don't think it's against the rules to have attitude?

This is the hallway of the same prison cell that arildno posted:

Compared to an American MAXIMUM security prison:

All that's different is the inside. As I said perhaps the conditions are 'less' harsh but it's hardly the 'luxurious' life at the cottage you're trying to portray, get real. You want to go live there go ahead.

Regardless, I want some official statements of what prison Breivik is headed to. No non-sense spouted by the Daily mail.

The best guesstimate is that he will stay at Ila prison, if he is judged sane and convicted.
We have only one other high-security prison besides Ila, Ringerike Prison where most of our extremely dangerous convicts are placed (we have 155 guards there, for 160 prisoners).

The major trouble with Ringerike Prison, however is that it would be extremely bad taste to place Breivik there:
Ringerike Prison is situated right beside the Tyrifjord Lake (with a grand view of it from the cells, I believe), where Utøya lies..

 

[MarcoD]

In US terms, Norway is a very peaceful civil society where most crimes are committed by juveniles and (often) first-time offenders. Therefor, they rehabilitate people.

I am pretty sure the 'tree-huggers' prison mentioned here is there exactly for that reason: to rehabilitate mostly juveniles who just got derailed and lost touch that they live in a peaceful society, to make them understand that by setting the right example of that society in prison, that they get all the benefits and opportunities of that society, that society -in a manner of sense- doesn't care that they got side-tracked for a while, but that they should be damned sure not to do it again. That's why they have -in US terms- insanely low numbers of recidivism.

Breivik is a freak-of-nature given their society. Insane or not, he is a terrorist, he doesn't fit into any of the above categories.

One of the youth who was attacked and witnessed the atrocities responded that he felt sorry for Breivik, and that the guy deserves help.

This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.

 

[Willowz]

Stick him in here.

[URL]http://frugalzeitgeist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/prison-390x520.jpg[/URL]

 

[zomgwtf]

This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.

This is something some friends of mine from Norway have actually said over and over again. Even though one of them had suffered the loss of a friend.

Even those that were killed would not want Breivik to face harsh treatment. That's THEIR words, not mine.

 

[Willowz]

This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.

 

[Evo]

Stick him in here.

[URL]http://frugalzeitgeist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/prison-390x520.jpg

I[/URL] love it!

 

[apeiron]

The US alternative - still too humane?...

ADX Florence - prisoners are kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day for at least the first year.

Most cells' furniture is made almost entirely out of poured concrete, including the desk, stool, and bed. Each chamber contains a toilet that shuts off if plugged, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink missing a potentially dangerous trap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, and a television that shows recreational, educational and religious programming.[11] These are considered privileges that may be taken away as punishment, so they are placed and remotely controlled such that the inmate does not actually come into contact with them. The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (1.2 m) windows are designed to prevent the prisoner from knowing his specific location within the complex because he can see only the sky and roof through them. Additionally, inmates exercise in what has been described as an "empty swimming pool," so they do not know their location for possible escape.[12] Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correctional officers. The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors, and 12 ft (3.66 m) high razor wire fences. Laser beams, pressure pads, and attack dogs guard the area between the prison walls and razor wire.[citation needed]

Eric Rudolph, the Olympic Park bomber, lamented in a series of 2006 letters to a Colorado Springs newspaper that the ADX is meant to "inflict misery and pain."[13] Charles Harrelson, who was sent to ADX after a failed attempt to escape from a Georgia prison, said "Part of the plan here is sensory deprivation," and "It could be infinitely worse."[12] A former ADX warden described the place as "a cleaner version of Hell."[14] There have been hundreds of "involuntary feedings" and four suicides.[14] Most recently, in June 2009 Richard Reid, commonly known as the "shoe bomber", went on a hunger strike and was force-fed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

 

[MarcoD]

The US alternative - still too humane?...

I don't know. Evo once commented that witch-hunts don't exist anymore. I partly disagree. A witch-hunt can be seen as an emotional response to something which triggers public moral outrage. Breivik, Strauss-Kahn, the US's public response to 9/11 can all also be viewed from that perspective.

The right thing, I think, is to stay calm about it and just look at the numbers: Are you, as a society, better off with harsh penalties, or tree-hugging criminals to death? The problem is that nobody knows what works except for crime statistics and recidivism.

 

[Evo]

The difference is with hardened criminals here, people that grew up in a world of gang violence that don't know anything else. You live by having power over others, drugs, killing, it's their life. A failure of society, yes, but they are killing machines, they don't care. Send one of these people to a Norwegian prison and see what happens. These people have no remorse, they get their kicks out of killing people.

US prison max security.

[PLAIN]http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4874/inmates.jpg

 

[apeiron]

The right thing, I think, is to stay calm about it and just look at the numbers: Are you, as a society, better off with harsh penalties, or tree-hugging criminals to death? The problem is that nobody knows what works except for crime statistics and recidivism.

All the more so on what is supposed to be a science forum. Let's see a rational examination of the facts. Emotional rants and xenophonic comments we can get anywhere.

 

[apeiron]

A failure of society, yes,

Precisely. So focus on fixing the society. What would that look like?

 

[Evo]

Precisely. So focus on fixing the society. What would that look like?

Impossible.

 

[MarcoD]

The difference is with hardened criminals here, people that grew up in a world of gang violence that don't know anything else. You live by having power over others, drugs, killing, it's their life. A failure of society, yes, but they are killing machines, they don't care. Send one of these people to a Norwegian prison and see what happens. These people have no remorse, they get their kicks out of killing people.

I am aware of that. The US is a big place in comparison to Norway, and if you would take the EU in total I have little doubt that crime numbers would be comparable if not larger. Norway is just a very small, relatively rich country. It's like comparing Seattle to the rest of the states. (I don't know if Seattle is the right example.)

What I do think, is that Norway has one thing right: It is not about punishment, it is about rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated, have a quiet life and contribute to society. I don't care about the other criminals.

The stupid thing about Breivik is that he falls outside the norm. It is unlikely that it would have happened, now it happened, and it is unlikely that it will happen again anytime soon. In a sense, it doesn't matter what happens to him. Maybe they rehabilitate him, maybe they let him rot for the rest of his life. But I don't think they should change a perfectly well working system over him.

 

[Evo]

I am aware of that. The US is a big place in comparison to Norway, and if you would take the EU in total I have little doubt that crime numbers would be comparable if not larger. Norway is just a very small, relatively rich country. It's like comparing Seattle to the rest of the states. (I don't know if Seattle is the right example.)

What I do think, is that Norway has one thing right: It is not about punishment, it is about rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated, have a quiet life and contribute to society. I don't care about the other criminals.

The stupid thing about Breivik is that he falls outside the norm. It is unlikely that it would have happened, now it happened, and it is unlikely that it will happen again anytime soon. In a sense, it doesn't matter what happens to him. Maybe they rehabilitate him, maybe they let him rot for the rest of his life. But I don't think they should change a perfectly well working system over him.

Like you said, not everyone can be rehabilitated. For most of the hardened criminals in the US, that's the case. You cannot compare the Martha Stewart type criminals in Norway to what we have in the US. Just the sad reality.

 

[apeiron]

Impossible.

Source?

 

[Evo]

source?

Imo. I'm a realist.

Do you have any idea of how out of control gang life is here? I know you don't live in the US, so it's understandable that you are not familiar with American gang culture or the horrific prison system.

It's so funny that I've never stated my opinion on crime or our penal system, aside from criticising it, yet people have taken it upon themselves to create one for me.

 

[apeiron]

Imo. I'm a realist.

You are making a ridiculously sweeping statement in claiming a social situation is unfixable. You should provide a better argument than IMO if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Evo]

You are making a ridiculously sweeping statement in claiming a social situation is unfixable. You should provide a better argument than IMO if you want to be taken seriously.

And you should provide an argument to the opposite to back yourself up. No? I'd love to see the research done that claims how this problem can be fixed since you seem to know I'm wrong. You're getting overly emotional and making statements that I haven't seen backed up. I suggest that you calm down and show me where my opinion is wrong instead of making snide remarks.

 

[MarcoD]

Impossible.

Impossible is just what Breivik thought. He lost faith in that society could fix, or defend itself, against all deluded threats he imagined are there. Therefor he set out to fix it himself.

Impossible is not an answer. Having a clear view of movement in society, the sources of the violence, and the best manner to deal with it, is.

Your goal seems to be: fix it by elimination. That's not always the best possible, ethically just, or sensible approach.

In the extreme case, you end up hanging everyone who just did something wrong. Of course, you can 'fix' a society that way. But I don't want to live in Iran or North-Korea.

 

[Evo]

Your goal seems to be: fix it by elimination.

Please post where I said this. Do not start making things up.

Seriously, post where I said that.

 

[MarcoD]

Please post where I said this. Do not start making things up.

Seriously, post where I said that.

I said 'seems to be'. It was just what I assumed given your remarks on the Norwegian penalty system. I do apologize that I got it wrong.

 

[apeiron]

And you should provide an argument to the opposite to back yourself up. No? I'd love to see the research done that claims how this problem can be fixed since you seem to know I'm wrong. You're getting overly emotional and making statements that I haven't seen backed up. I suggest that you calm down and show me where my opinion is wrong instead of making snide remarks.

I'd be happy to discuss social policy in this area. And the wider context of embedded neoliberalist politics. It is one of my interests.

But it is you that have made wild and unsupported statements here. So I'll wait to see if you can back them up.

By definition I cannot argue against an "opinion". All one can employ against opinion is further rhetoric. And then you'd start handing out infractions.

But if you can supply reasoned argument - a theory and its data - then yes I could show where you are wrong.

 

[Evo]

I'd be happy to discuss social policy in this area. And the wider context of embedded neoliberalist politics. It is one of my interests.

But it is you that have made wild and unsupported statements here. So I'll wait to see if you can back them up.

By definition I cannot argue against an "opinion". All one can employ against opinion is further rhetoric. And then you'd start handing out infractions..

But if you can supply reasoned argument - a theory and its data - then yes I could show where you are wrong.

It's my opinion that it can't be fixed, at least not in my lifetime, maybe never. People here are allowed to have opinions. I haven't seen anything that says I'm wrong. You started with the accusations, so I expect that you know something I don't know. I'm willing to read whatever you have that makes my opinion wild and unsupported.

Don't make accusations that you aren't ready to back up with facts. If you want to say that it's just your opinion, then you may do so. People are allowed to have differing opinions.

 

[MarcoD]

It's my opinion that it can't be fixed, at least not in my lifetime, maybe never.

I guess people started to disagree on what the problem is, and what fixing means, and we got side-tracked to discussing US penalty systems. I agree with you that criminality is unfixable, it seems you are undecided on the issue. I could make stupid remarks about a US system I don't understand. My general view is that dividing the overall wealth, good education, demystifying fears, and having an on rehabilitation based penal system is the best for a society.

But what do I know. Maybe the US and Norway have the best penal systems anyway given their circumstances? Having a little faith in what you have, trust the judicial system, also helps, just look at Breivik.

 

[apeiron]

People are allowed to have differing opinions.

Yes, but I thought the guideline here was that they also have to be adequately sourced. Glad to be corrected on this and will remember that for future reference.

In the meantime, I refer you back to my post #24 where I did take a social constructionist perspective on Breivik's "insanity".

Gang culture, and underclasses everywhere, are clearly the result of social conditions. They would not exist unless there was a context that could produce them.

The standard sociological analysis would start with conditions such as extreme social inequality, free access to lethal weapons, drug laws based on prohibition rather than public health, fragmentation of family ties, etc, etc.

You would be right that gang culture in the US can't be fixed unless US society as a whole is willing to make change. If that is all you are saying, then of course I agree.

 

[Willowz]

So... When is the trial taking place?

 

[hbjon]

Do you think that someone must be insane to commit horrible acts? ANYONE can do terrible things if they convince themselves that it is the RIGHT decision. If my neighbor is known to be abusing his children does that give me the right to murder him? No! Is it the right thing to do? I bet many would say yes.[/QUOTE

There is something illogical about what they are telling us about Breivik's motives. It seems the whole story is another variation of the evil white supremicist skinhead that went on a rampage because a member of another race stole his girlfriend. I mean, doesn't it seem like the media uses the same fictional story as a guide to start with? Then, changes it gradually as anomollies contradict the facts previously given? The people he set out to kill were his countrymen and women. Hmmmmmm. How can we make that fit into the paradigm? Inject emotion and psychology? Immho, the man was weaponized by a large cult or militia. And I would not rule out the use of hypnotic drugs. According to some disciplines in medicine and human behaviour, the only things that cause insanity are neurotoxins that pass through the blood/brain membrane (a protective barrier). Under normal hypnosis, a person can't be made to do something that is that morally wrong. However, there are a few (unless's) that should be inserted here if I wanted to be long winded. Let us just hope the competent authorities have researched all possibilities.

 

[Evo]

Yes, but I thought the guideline here was that they also have to be adequately sourced. Glad to be corrected on this and will remember that for future reference.

No, opinions do not need citations, only if it is stated as fact. I forgot the Imo, you questioned me and I corrected my statement to be merely opinion.

and then you told me

You are making a ridiculously sweeping statement in claiming a social situation is unfixable. You should provide a better argument than IMO if you want to be taken seriously.

That is a violation of the guidelines, but I'm going to let it go.

In addition to content already prohibited by our global forum guidelines, the following are specifically NOT permitted in Politics & World Affairs:

3) Assigning truth values to opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and feelings.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181

 

[apeiron]

Hmmmmmm. How can we make that fit into the paradigm? Inject emotion and psychology? Immho, the man was weaponized by a large cult or militia. And I would not rule out the use of hypnotic drugs. According to some disciplines in medicine and human behaviour, the only things that cause insanity are neurotoxins that pass through the blood/brain membrane (a protective barrier). Under normal hypnosis, a person can't be made to do something that is that morally wrong. However, there are a few (unless's) that should be inserted here if I wanted to be long winded. Let us just hope the competent authorities have researched all possibilities.

More crazy unsupported nonsense. But I guess this is the internet.