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News Who will turn the dark and painful page ?

  1. Apr 17, 2009 #1
    Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    How can it be considered acceptable not to punish torture ? Does Obama think we will just forget ? Is he not concerned that some might forget and do it again ? I am outraged and deeply disappointed.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gcf8odiL7Aym4L8F3SWAH-_EQPDgD97K96600 [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
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  3. Apr 17, 2009 #2
    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I don't know much about this but weren't those operatives ordered by their seniors and their seniors ordered by those above them and so on ? If so, who is to blame? Who is to be prosecuted?
     
  4. Apr 17, 2009 #3
    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I think it would be bit messy to put charges against them. There are more important problems to focus on.

    But as I understand, he said he will not prosecute if they followed the law at that time.
     
  5. Apr 17, 2009 #4
    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I guess deep down he would do it, but he doesn't want to open a Pandora's box to haunt him.
     
  6. Apr 17, 2009 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I don't agree with the decision, but he is arguing that the CIA was operating under what was portrayed as legal authority by the Bush admin. There is the distinction that they didn't hose down people with machine guns or hook-up high voltage to anyone's testicles. There are clear violation of the law, and then there is the fuzzy-Gonzo [Bush's Attorney General] legality which sought to obscure or avoid the law.

    Anyway, like I said, I don't agree either. At the least, people like Cheney and Gonzo should be held acccountable, and maybe they will be. IMO, the entire chain of command that had knowledge of this has failed.. no, betrayed their country. Waterboarding was banned in the Civil war. That was 150 years ago!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  7. Apr 17, 2009 #6

    mgb_phys

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    Ve ver only following zer orders?
     
  8. Apr 17, 2009 #7

    turbo

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I am disappointed, too. It's not just Bush, Cheney, Gonzo, et al at the top, but people all up and down the chain of command at the CIA that ordered the flights, imprisonments at secret locations that were outside of US law, and tortured people in locations that were clearly under US control. There were also professionals like psychologists who advised the torturers how to most effectively "break" the detainees. Sadly, many of the people swept up in the "anti-terror" net were people who had done nothing more than tick off some people in power who were willing to lie and "sell" them to the US for a bounty.

    If this is all swept under the rug, the US will have a hard, long road back to respectability in global affairs.
     
  9. Apr 17, 2009 #8

    lisab

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    This decision makes me mad as hell. I understand the bind that Obama is in here, but come on - we have to follow the law! Assign a special prosecutor, for crying out loud. Literally, it's the least we should do.
     
  10. Apr 17, 2009 #9

    Evo

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I think Obama has faced the reality that a long internal probe would only cost the taxpayers millions of dollars and result in no prosecutions. He has confirmed that he is a wise man and not one looking for press.

    I think it is a wise decision to say it was wrong, prevent it from happening again, and move ahead.
     
  11. Apr 17, 2009 #10

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    This is what I was thinking. It may not be possible to convict someone who believed that their actions did not legally constitute torture. If they had used more extreme methods, at some point the argument would fail, but as it stands this does get dicey.
     
  12. Apr 17, 2009 #11

    Evo

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I think you nailed it.
     
  13. Apr 17, 2009 #12

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    The people who wrote the memos authorizing these methods are not off the hook.
     
  14. Apr 17, 2009 #13

    Evo

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    Are there memos that foolishly describe anything specific that was illegal?
     
  15. Apr 17, 2009 #14

    lisab

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I can't believe that the people who were doing the waterboarding did not believe that it was torture. The people who are being waterboarded believe they are drowning, and they behave as such.

    And despite the cost of the trial and the very real possibility that there would be no convictions, I would feel much better if he went that route. At least we could look back years from now and say, we tried to do the right thing.
     
  16. Apr 17, 2009 #15

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    While I tend to agree, proving this in court is another matter.

    There are people who exceeded the CIA guidelines. For this reason they could still be held liable for torture. And again, according to an interview with experts [just now on the PBS Newshour], the people who authorized this are not in the clear.
     
  17. Apr 17, 2009 #16

    Evo

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I have to disagree, making a futile gesture to ease someone's conscious? Doing the "right" thing would be to put an end to it. Going through a sham prosecution is worthless. Why would that make you feel better? Looking back in history, the fact that we stopped it will show that we did the right thing.

    If they have hard evidence, then, by all means prosecute. Anything else is pointless. Much better to spend that time and money on helping people now, not trying to eliminate feelings of guilt over something we didn't even know about. Do you really feel personally responsible? Or maybe I just really don't understand your point of view, which wouldn't surprise me. I don't feel responsible for slavery, or for anything else that happened in the past.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  18. Apr 17, 2009 #17

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    Allegely the authorization of waterboarding could be prosecuted. The reference was in regards to the people who specified who could be waterboarded [or otherwise tortured], how, and for how long. In effect, a how-to manual was issued. For example, it was specified that water used for waterboarding shall not be less than 41 degrees F, so apparently it all gets quite specific.

    Here is the story. A link to the documents is provided.
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/terrorism/homeland/index.html [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  19. Apr 17, 2009 #18

    lisab

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    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    I recognize that it's idealistic, but what's wrong with a little idealism, especially when it comes to justice? Reminds me of one of my favorite novels, "To Kill a Mockingbird." A hopeless case but Atticus Finch persevered...and lost. But the whole point of the novel was the lesson it taught his daughter.

    And yes I do feel responsible for what my government does, in my lifetime - I have no feelings of responsibility for slavery. But things that the Bush adminstration did that reflect badly on all Americans, I do feel some responsibility for (even though I didn't vote for him). Because, it's my government - it represents all of us, how can I not feel responsible?
     
  20. Apr 17, 2009 #19
    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    As an outsider, I can say that there are a lot of keen eyes watching especially this case. This isn't about what happens to the torturers or the possible futility of the legal battle. It is about what the US represents - freedom or something completely different. Letting them go will silently approve the policy.
     
  21. Apr 17, 2009 #20
    Re: Who will turn the "dark and painful" page ?

    So idealistically, government should start out a new drama and distract itself from more real problems :rolleyes:
    I can see if Obama economic plan fails, this can work out as good distraction.
     
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