Why are E and gamma considered canonically conjugate in the Gauss law?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter naima
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Conjugate
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of canonical conjugate variables in the context of Gauss's law as presented in a paper by Lewandowski. Participants explore the mathematical formulation of Gauss's law and the implications of the relationship between the electric field \(E\) and the variable \(\gamma\), particularly in the setting of non-Abelian gauge theories.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why \(E\) and \(\gamma\) are considered canonically conjugate in the rewritten form of Gauss's law.
  • Another participant suggests that understanding the structure constants and their indices may provide clarity on the relationship between \(E\) and \(\gamma\).
  • A participant references the Noether theorem and the identification of conjugate pairs in the context of Yang-Mills theory, proposing that the pair \((A^{a}_{j}, E_{a}^{j})\) can be seen as analogous to the \(E\) and \(\gamma\) relationship.
  • There is a discussion about the citation of the paper, with some participants emphasizing the importance of providing full references for context.
  • Concerns are raised about the accessibility of the referenced paper due to its cost and the practices of the publisher.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of providing links to papers and the pricing practices of academic publishers. The technical question regarding the canonical conjugacy of \(E\) and \(\gamma\ remains unresolved, with multiple perspectives offered but no consensus reached.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves complex mathematical structures and definitions that may not be fully addressed, such as the role of indices in the structure constants and the implications of the non-Abelian gauge theory framework.

naima
Gold Member
Messages
936
Reaction score
54
Hi PF
I read a paper in which Lewandowski writes:
the Gauss law has the form
##\partial E^a / \partial x^a + c_{jk}E^{aj}\gamma ^k_a = 0##
wherec are the structure constants
he then writes that if we are in a semisimple algebra they are skew symmetric in the indices and it can be rewritten as
##\partial E^a / \partial x^a - c^j_{k}E^{a}_j\gamma ^k_a = 0##
And he writes (that is my question):
"where NOW E and ##\gamma## are canonically conjugate".
Can you explain why?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
When reading a paper (presumably found online) it's a proof a courtesy to offer a link to that paper, so that any respondents could have the context of your question (the only Lewandowski I know plays for Bayern Muenchen :-))
 
naima said:
Hi PF
I read a paper in which Lewandowski writes:
the Gauss law has the form
##\partial E^a / \partial x^a + c_{jk}E^{aj}\gamma ^k_a = 0##
wherec are the structure constants
he then writes that if we are in a semisimple algebra they are skew symmetric in the indices and it can be rewritten as
##\partial E^a / \partial x^a - c^j_{k}E^{a}_j\gamma ^k_a = 0##
And he writes (that is my question):
"where NOW E and ##\gamma## are canonically conjugate".
Can you explain why?

Further to what Dexter have said, it would be more helpful, if you tell us, for example, why the structure constant carries two indices instead of three, the meaning of different indices, symbols, etc.
Any way, in any field theory with (compact) non-Abelian symmetry G, the conjugate pair (\varphi^{A} , \pi_{A}), A = 1,2, \cdots , \mbox{dim}\left(\rho_{\varphi}(G)\right), appear in (the Noether expression of) the generator Q_{a} , a = 1, \cdots , \mbox{dim}(G), of the infinitesimal symmetry transformation \delta_{a}\varphi^{A} = [Q_{a} , \varphi^{A}] = \left(T_{a}\right)^{A}{}_{B} \ \varphi^{B} , [T_{a} , T_{b}] = C_{abc}T_{c} . In Noether theorem, Q_{a} is given by the integral Q_{a} = \int d^{3}\vec{x} \ J^{0}_{a}(x) = \int d^{3}\vec{x} \ \pi_{A}(x) \left(T_{a}\right)^{A}{}_{B} \ \varphi^{B}(x) , \ \ \ (1) where J^{\mu}_{a} is the conserved 4-vector Noether current.
For pure Yang-Mills theory, \mathcal{L} = - (1/4) F^{\mu\nu a}F_{\mu\nu}^{a}, the Noether current (corresponding to the global symmetry) is given by J^{\mu}_{a} = - C_{abc} F^{\mu\nu b}A^{c}_{\nu} , where the vector potential A^{a}_{\mu} transforms in the adjoint representation C_{abc} = (T_{a})_{bc}. Integrating the J^{0}_{a} component, we obtain Q_{a} = - \int d^{3}\vec{x} \ F^{0j}_{b}\ \left(T_{a}\right)^{b}{}_{c} \ A^{c}_{j} . Using, the definition of the non-Abelian electric field E^{j}_{b} = - F^{0j}{}_{b}, we get Q_{a} = \int d^{3}\vec{x} \ E^{j}_{b}(x) \ \left(T_{a}\right)^{b}{}_{c} \ A^{c}_{j}(x) . \ \ \ (2) Comparing (2) with the generic form (1), we can identify the conjugate (Yang-Mills) pair with ( A^{a}_{j} , E_{a}^{j}). You can also arrive at the same construction, using the generator of local gauge symmetry, i.e., the integral form of Gauss’ law.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby
I did not give the link because it is not free
It is "
Variations of the parallel propagator and holonomy operator and the Gauss
law constraint"
I do not think that everything must be free but this paper is sold by scammers!
You can buy these 10 pages for 30 dollars or read it for 4 dollars. But when you click on read it, they say choose 5 articles for 20 dollars.
Yes i forgot the third indice, sorry
 
The proper citation is Jerzy Lewandowski, Ezra T. Newman, and Carlo Rovell, Variations of the parallel propagator and holonomy operator and the Gauss law constraint, J. Math. Phys. 34, 4646 (1993) http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.530362

I do not think that the American Institute of Physics can be scalled "scammers." Anyway, most of those who can help you will have access to this paper through an institutional subscription. Please always give full references.
 
DrClaude said:
[...]
I do not think that the American Institute of Physics can be called "scammers." [...]

Well, if they ask you to pay 20 bucks to read five articles (4 you probably don't need), when you are offered to pay only 4 to read the one you need, it's almost a scam.
 
The i indice that i ommitted does not occur in a sum. there is a (4.2) constraint for each i.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 47 ·
2
Replies
47
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
3K