News Why Are Riots Escalating in London?

[JesseC]

The majority of people are not rioting because their youth centre has closed, they are rioting because of mob mentality and opportunistic crime. Thugs throwing bottles, organising gangs to steal plasma TVs and mothers bringing their children looting are not the result of youth program closure.

Of course they are not, I didn't say they were and its not fair on me that you've singled on a few words in my previous post and ignored my point. I simply mention youth centres, because its poignant reminder of the sort of services that have been taken away from these youths just in the last few weeks. The mass rioting we see across the country is not just a result of opportunistic crime and mob mentality or pure criminality or whatever you want to call it either... there are much bigger social and political problems slap bang in the middle of it all.

We can keep on denouncing the rioters forever, and I agree they should be denounced. My worry is that the government will not pay any heed to the social and political problems at the heart of the matter and simply slap the toughest sentences possible on the few looters they manage to catch.

 

[JesseC]

Deportation would do it, too bad it's easy for immigrants to have the nationality of the country they immigrated to. Immigrants are allowed to immigrate to work. If they're unemployed and causing problems they should be deported -that would also serve as example to others.

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Of course they are not, I didn't say they were and its not fair on me that you've singled on a few words in my previous post and ignored my point. I simply mention youth centres, because its poignant reminder of the sort of services that have been taken away from these youths just in the last few weeks. The mass rioting we see across the country is not just a result of opportunistic crime and mob mentality or pure criminality or whatever you want to call it either... there are much bigger social and political problems slap bang in the middle of it all.

We can keep on denouncing the rioters forever, and I agree they should be denounced. My worry is that the government will not pay any heed to the social and political problems at the heart of the matter and simply slap the toughest sentences possible on the few looters they manage to catch.

I've never suggested that the reasons should'nt be tackled. What I've pointed out is that these aren't the direct result of a specific event, rather a specific event allowed a mass action of crime to occur. Everyone is facing similar social and political problems, it is no excuse to riot as demonstrated by the people of poverty stricken areas who were out on mass with brooms and bins cleaning up their neighbourhood. What I'm worried about is the danger of people trying to explain this away as the governments fault when it is no-one's but the bastards who have caused such harm.

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

 

[Tosh5457]

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

No I'm not trolling. Most rioters are immigrants, whether they are descendants from immigrants that were already in UK or immigrants that recently arrived. Those who were at the riot and aren't immigrants unfortunately have to be taken care of by their country.

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

I don't know what daily mail is, and I apologize for having a different ideology from you, I guess... I don't need any newspaper to tell me what to think, I just don't know why I have to be a liberal and support mass immigration to european countries...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

No I'm not trolling. Most rioters are immigrants, whether they are descendants from immigrants that were already in UK or immigrants that recently arrived. Those who were at the riot and aren't immigrants unfortunately have to be taken care of by their country.

I don't know what daily mail is, and I apologize for having a different ideology from you, I guess...

You are not an immigrant if you are descended from immigrants. Please show some sort of reference to back up your claim, the vast majority of people I have seen on the streets around me are clearly British.

Feel free to have a different ideology from me but my respecting your right to an ideology is irrelevant to my opinion regarding your ideology.

 

[Tosh5457]

You are not an immigrant if you are descended from immigrants.

That depends on the country's policies. Descendants of immigrants can be considered immigrants if the law says so.

Please show some sort of reference to back up your claim, the vast majority of people I have seen on the streets around me are clearly British.

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

 

[JesseC]

I've never suggested that the reasons should'nt be tackled. What I've pointed out is that these aren't the direct result of a specific event, rather a specific event allowed a mass action of crime to occur.

I agree with you there.

Everyone is facing similar social and political problems...

That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

... it is no excuse to riot as demonstrated by the people of poverty stricken areas who were out on mass with brooms and bins cleaning up their neighbourhood.

I agree with that too, really delightful and proud to see so many helping out. If I hadn't had work, I'd have been down there too.

What I'm worried about is the danger of people trying to explain this away as the governments fault when it is no-one's but the bastards who have caused such harm.

Clearly the instances of violence and crime are the fault of those out on the streets and the question of direct blame is simple, but the indirect blame is never so simple... it is important not to exclude these from any surrounding context. As suggested by some commentators, if we'd all been paying more attention to these impoverished areas of London we might have seen this coming... instead the police and government claimed to have been taken by surprise.

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

Oh dear... :P

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

Not this second but I live in London and have seen the riots first hand. I fail to see why you think it is fair to say most rioters are immigrants.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I
That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

Glad we agree on most points on this I'm no so sure. Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

 

[JesseC]

Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

Haven't heard anyone suggest its an excuse yet!

The important difference is not just wealth, but age. The media are bombarding my eardrums with the fact that all this violence is being committed by the 'youth', 'young yobs' and aside from a few exceptions, this seems to be largely true. Not only that, but youths in poor areas.

Its simply not good enough to denounce them as rats, lock some of them up and forget about them. They are human beings after all! We need to look at issues surrounding the youth in poor areas... worse schools, lack of jobs and high unemployment, surrounded by crime, cutting of benefits and opportunities and a general lack of respect or care about their lives. I'm sure you can see how those sort of conditions would provide the fuel for any spark, say a police shooting, which happened to occur.

Its probably the case that the political and social causes are lost on the rioters and looters themselves, but that doesn't mean it has to be lost on us too.

 

[JesseC]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

Really sorry to hear that :(

 

[mheslep]

Dismaying response here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[BBC]You been drinking all night?

Yeah
It’s the governments fault. Conservatives.

[BBC]You reckon it will go on tonight?

Hopefully

[BBC]...Why is the targeting local people, your own people?

It’s the rich people, the people got businesses. That’s why all of this is happening.

 

[Astronuc]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

Recently my mom told me of guy who came to the door asking for money. According to her, he disclosed that he was a sports fan who had recently attended a game. So according to that story, the guy blows his money on going to games, and then goes begging in neighborhoods for money - ostensibly because he doesn't have a job, or he doesn't make sufficient money to pay for the livestyle to which he believes he is entitled!

 

[drankin]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

 

[Astronuc]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

Certainly, it could! Remember Summer, 1968. Chicago, Nov. 1968.

LA Riots, 1992 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair = anger, and often someone else to blame, although in 1968, some of the blame was someone else. Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair are not excusable for committing violence and mayhem, but rather are common motivators or precursors to such behavior.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

If I recall correctly, earlier today a Belgian MP said somewhere that he thinks the rioting could easily spread to Europe.

 

[JesseC]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

That fact would matter more if there was a level playing field to begin with. Unfortunately the UK is a country in which some are lucky enough to be born into tremendous wealth (say our Prime Minister or Mayor of London or Chancellor of the Exchequer) whilst others can work hard their entire lives and get nowhere.

But I suppose we diverge from the topic slightly...

 

[Evo]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

Have any of you read the thread? I keep seeing posts which indicate people aren't reading what has been posted.

 

[drankin]

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

I had heard rumors but I couldn't find any articles. If you have a good link, please post.

 

[Astronuc]

That fact would matter more if there was a level playing field to begin with. Unfortunately the UK is a country in which some are lucky enough to be born into tremendous wealth (say our Prime Minister or Mayor of London or Chancellor of the Exchequer) whilst others can work hard their entire lives and get nowhere.

But I suppose we diverge from the topic slightly...

That's the story (economic deprivation, or the perception thereof) behind the story.

There are perhaps those with legitimate greivances, and those who just choose to cause trouble. However, vandalism and violence are not the solutions to such a problem.

 

[Evo]

I had heard rumors but I couldn't find any articles. If you have a good link, please post.

Here are a couple from the first page.

It's becoming a widespread problem. Philly now has problems too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

Just want to make a quick comment that in my city of Milwaukee, we've been having problems with youths organizing violent mobs via social media. At our 4th of July fireworks we had a mob destroy a 7-11 and then proceed to beat up 20-30 firework watchers. Also just last week we had a mob of 200 youths causing mayhem at our state fair which sent 30 to the hospital. It's a huge issue here. Social media is rearing it's ugly head.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

And so, the shooting of Mark Duggan leads to World War III.

 

[drankin]

Here are a couple from the first page.

Interesting that it had to be an non-US article. I was googling the US news and didn't see anything. Must be overshadowed by the UK news.

 

[mheslep]

Certainly, it could! Remember Summer, 1968. Chicago, Nov. 1968...

Interesting that you mentioned that riot. There ware no observe only police lines back then. Mayor Daley's cops forcefully put down the riots in '68 Chicago. The youth rioters naively assumed the ethnic (poles, etc) police force would join in common cause with them, when they were really from two different cultures.

Grant Park 1968, where Obama gave his election night speech 40 years later.

 

[cristo]

So tonight London seems safe (as you'd imagine with 16,000 police on the streets), and it's definitely important to have taken back control of the capital, but some of the smaller cities have been badly hit. The central shopping centre in Manchester has been looted and some shops burnt to the ground. Sigh.. I hope this ends soon, it's embarrassing and hugely destructive.

 

[Evo]

Interesting that you mentioned that riot.

Shame on Astro for going off topic and not reading the earlier posts. Tsk!

Back to social media's involvement in the riots.

 

[mheslep]

Shame on Astro for going off topic and not reading the earlier posts. Tsk!

Back to social media's involvement in the riots.

Wrong thread Evo. This is the Riots of London thread

 

[phinds]

EDIT: This is the same reason why I think that self-driving cars will face a far harder introduction than people anticipate even if the technology exists. Never underestimate the human capability to misunderstand risk.

Obviously this is totally aside from the current thread, but it's an interesting point. I can easily imagine that if the death toll in America were to drop from tens of thousands per year due to car accidents to a few thousands or less due to the use of self-driving cars, if some of those were in self-driving cars, the headlines would be screaming "AUTOMATIC CARS KILL DRIVERS" and have nothing to say about the huge savings of lives.

 

[Evo]

So tonight London seems safe (as you'd imagine with 16,000 police on the streets), and it's definitely important to have taken back control of the capital, but some of the smaller cities have been badly hit. The central shopping centre in Manchester has been looted and some shops burnt to the ground. Sigh.. I hope this ends soon, it's embarrassing and hugely destructive.

It's really terrible. How long can the police keep up these numbers?

Since people are missing posts, I'll repost this.

Look at the destruction caused by the mobs. Horrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461868