Originally posted by M. Gaspar
So, are you saying that we should each establish our respective positions on what is "going on" with/within/or outside of the Universe before offering our "answer" to the question?
Then, we'd each be saying something like this: "I'm coming from a paradigm that holds that thus and such is true , and so within that context I believe that we are individuals because..."?
Yes, I think that would be very helpful to communication of these various concepts - right on :)
Or, are you saying that -- because of all the diverse perspectives -- our answers would be meaningful only to those who share a similar paradigm ( preaching to the choir) while the rest of us couldn't care less...so why discuss it in the first place?
Heh, well that may well prove true. For example, it's really pointless to debate abortion unless you both have the same definitions of life, rights, "person", and a whole host of other philosophic and religious foundations. It's also pointless to debate evolution until you agree on what constitutes evidence, the burden of proof, the actual facts of what evidence there are and aren't, and perhaps the reliability of biblical creation.
But there are some good reasons for discussing and sharing various beliefs, even if we haven't come to terms with each other as to the foundations of those beliefs...
1) It's fun! That's the main reason I post and read here really.
2) It is important to understand the views of others, even if you don't agree with them. That goes from the very first premises, up the tree to the very last conclusions. Along the way, it offers insight to our whole view and, if we're open minded, just might allow us to change for the better.
3) Often, people can have a resistance to an idea because they dislike what they THINK it is based on, or they fear where they THINK it may lead. Discussing other levels of the worldview may help to alleviate that concern, or at least make it more realistic. For example, I often get strong resistance from people when I debate the rationality of my atheistic position. Not in all cases, but in many I find that the force of their resistance comes, not from the facts actually being discussed, but from the fear they have that my conclusions would lead to meaninglessness and despair. Therefore, it may be helpful for me to share my humanistic beliefs with them, even though we may still disagree as to their foundations. This often shows them that there IS a secular basis for leading an ethical and meaningful life. With those concerns dealt with (at least somewhat), it is then easier to return to the atheistic debate and for both of us to focus on those facts, instead of having an irrelevant aversion or distraction based on other levels of the worldview.
But who among us could keep from arguing against each others' basic premises (let alone get to their answers) ...arguing as if we were actually going to change somebody's mind!
True, and that's why people who like debate have fun here. But although it's hard to tell the difference, there are those among us who are just here to "win the argument" and those actually exploring the issue. Because I often say my position outright and don't dilly-dally, people often mistake me for someone just out to "win". But I despise this take on debate. I once saw a book at the bookstore titled, "How to win any debate", and it was by a lawyer or salesman or something. It made me sick. The point of a debate should never be to win. If I'm wrong, I WANT to lose, but it will have to be a real loss backed up with good reasons in order to teach me anything.
When two people disagree, there are only two possibilities: one of them is wrong, or both of them are wrong. Both cannot be right in my view (note, if both merely misunderstand each other, then they may be right but they are both "wrong" in the sense that they are misunderstanding each other). Therefore, debate presents the opportunity for one or both to improve. The true winner in a debate is the loser, because s/he has had the opportunity to learn and adjust their views to what is likely more accurate. My favorite debates are the ones I lose, but that's only valuable to me if I made the other work for their victory.
Is this true? Are you "very interested" in hearing a "line of reasoning connecting the concept of individuality to our place [ or our FUNCTION?] in the Universe?"
YES! I may or may not agree with it, but I definitely want to know what arguments are out there so I can study them. For example, I could probably get on this board under a different name and have you thouroughly convinced I was a fundamentalist evangelical Christian. I could debate nearly any issue from that perspective, offering detailed rationale. That's how well we should all understand the others' positions - especially those we disagree with (like me and fundie christians).
And are you just as interested if you do not relate to the "foundational belief system"?
Yes.
I agree completely. My paradigm does not hold that "God" gave me a "purpose" but that I get to choose my own. However, Tiberius, you and I would part company at what comes next: that once we choose our purpose, the natural forces of the non-physical Universe would align with our intentions and actions to create and direct us to "openings" for our purpose to unfold. (Oops. Sorry about that. My paradigm is showing.)
Yep. No disrespect, but that sounds pretty looney tunes to me. But very intelligent and respectable people believe in things like angels and karma so you're in good company. :)
I once read somewhere that "The Meaning of Life is the Meaning We Give It" ...and this works for me.
Me too.
So, what ARE the "really important questions facing us"?
Whew! That's a lot of stuff. You know, all the issues of "applied" philosophy, such as: living ethically, getting along with one another, building a just and workable society, dealing with multicultural issues, dealing with the effects of technology on our lives, finding meaning and purpose in life, building worldviews and meaningful life philosophy we can live by, that is also in harmony with scientific facts, being happy and fulfilled, etc etc...
