Why do people still insist on the soul?

[Chaos' lil bro Order]

In my opinion, the behaviors that do indicate higher order learning processes (thinking, wanting, and feeling beyond instinctive levels) are those displayed, for example, when a dog rushes into a burning building, awakens the family, and leads them to safety.

That's a fantastic example. To play devil's advocate for the sake of objectivity, maybe the dog saves the people because they are its sole provider, thus is ensures its own survival, or what it perceives to be its only means of survival. After all, the dog doesn't know about kennels and pet adoption, so he's really just saving his food supply, or so he thinks (perhaps!).

BTW, your post previous to that quoted was hilarious, you are a gifted writer.



@nannoh

QUOTE: However, my personal opinion, so far, of what a soul is consists of this: its a word that was coined by a group of people (church) who had no idea what made organisms work. They hadn't yet done the research it takes to find out more about the nervous system and the other pertinent facts that have to do with physiology. So here, today, we are left with the vestigial remains of an ontology spawned by an ignorance of the human body, human nature and nature in general.

Profound! I am in complete agreement with your analysis and am impressed with the clarity and conciseness of your post. Please keep them coming, this thread is really taking off with you and the good 'ole Doc fueling its fire.

In my opinion, as I think it was yours as well, none of those 'soul' definitions suffice. The first, '• the immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life
person: , is the only definition of the 4 that reflects which definition of the 'soul' we are talking about and its so vague and open to mystical interpretation that its of no real use at all. Personally I think Doc's definition of the soul as being the sum of the mind, will and emotions to be the best defintion so far.

 

[jaynebeal]

I quote the experience of a cardiac patient in America. Having been pronounced clinicly dead..ie...no heart rate, no brain wave activity..the doctors on hand continued to try and reveive the patient which was eventually acheived. On regaining consciousness the patient described in detail both the conversations of the people working on her and also said that she floated out of her body and out of the building whereupon she saw a shoe on a window ledge. Amazed at her recall of conversation and instruments used in resuss' a nurse went to the floor the patient had described and checked the window ledge she cited the shoe to be...it was there and the nurse retrieved it. If she has no soul or no mind perception of metaphysical self...how did she see it? Therefore she must have left her physical body in either soley mind or spirit thus prooving the ability to leave one's body in times of stress or otherwise.

Another case of a young boy suffering a fever...his mother looked in on him and was amazed to see the young boy's spiritual self playing in his room and trying to wake his brother. The spiritual self was identical to the physical self...upon noting his mother was in the room...the young spirit jumped back into the child's body. His mother...agape turned to go and tell her husband of what had occurred only to find him open mouthed behind her, having witnesed the whole thing. This prooves not only a spiritual self but a complete conscious awareness while out of the body aswell.

 

[verty]

If she has no soul or no mind perception of metaphysical self...how did she see it?

I suspect someone invented the story. That's how it usually goes.

 

[Chaos' lil bro Order]

I quote the experience of a cardiac patient in America. Having been pronounced clinicly dead..ie...no heart rate, no brain wave activity..the doctors on hand continued to try and reveive the patient which was eventually acheived. On regaining consciousness the patient described in detail both the conversations of the people working on her and also said that she floated out of her body and out of the building whereupon she saw a shoe on a window ledge. Amazed at her recall of conversation and instruments used in resuss' a nurse went to the floor the patient had described and checked the window ledge she cited the shoe to be...it was there and the nurse retrieved it. If she has no soul or no mind perception of metaphysical self...how did she see it? Therefore she must have left her physical body in either soley mind or spirit thus prooving the ability to leave one's body in times of stress or otherwise.

Another case of a young boy suffering a fever...his mother looked in on him and was amazed to see the young boy's spiritual self playing in his room and trying to wake his brother. The spiritual self was identical to the physical self...upon noting his mother was in the room...the young spirit jumped back into the child's body. His mother...agape turned to go and tell her husband of what had occurred only to find him open mouthed behind her, having witnesed the whole thing. This prooves not only a spiritual self but a complete conscious awareness while out of the body aswell.

If both stories are true than you have an excellent point. We can never know if they are true, that is the obvious problem.

 

[jaynebeal]

Just out of interest...in florida a ressuss unit did this experiment on dogs. They stopped their hearts, drained them of blood and pumped in a saline solution at 5 degrees celcius and pumped it around the body for two hours...they then drained this..pumped back in the blood and restarted the heart with shocks. There were no adverse efects.. and most importantly..no brain damage...which was what the experiment was about...if the stories I posted are factualy correct..are there any volunteers?...l.o.l.

 

[Evo]

I quote the experience of a cardiac patient in America. Having been pronounced clinicly dead..ie...no heart rate, no brain wave activity..the doctors on hand continued to try and reveive the patient which was eventually acheived. On regaining consciousness the patient described in detail both the conversations of the people working on her and also said that she floated out of her body and out of the building whereupon she saw a shoe on a window ledge. Amazed at her recall of conversation and instruments used in resuss' a nurse went to the floor the patient had described and checked the window ledge she cited the shoe to be...it was there and the nurse retrieved it. If she has no soul or no mind perception of metaphysical self...how did she see it? Therefore she must have left her physical body in either soley mind or spirit thus prooving the ability to leave one's body in times of stress or otherwise.

Another case of a young boy suffering a fever...his mother looked in on him and was amazed to see the young boy's spiritual self playing in his room and trying to wake his brother. The spiritual self was identical to the physical self...upon noting his mother was in the room...the young spirit jumped back into the child's body. His mother...agape turned to go and tell her husband of what had occurred only to find him open mouthed behind her, having witnesed the whole thing. This prooves not only a spiritual self but a complete conscious awareness while out of the body aswell.

Please post a link to a credible source to back this up or it will be deleted.

Just out of interest...in florida a ressuss unit did this experiment on dogs. They stopped their hearts, drained them of blood and pumped in a saline solution at 5 degrees celcius and pumped it around the body for two hours...they then drained this..pumped back in the blood and restarted the heart with shocks. There were no adverse efects.. and most importantly..no brain damage...which was what the experiment was about...if the stories I posted are factualy correct..are there any volunteers?...l.o.l.

Please post the link to this research or it will be deleted.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Please post a link to a credible source to back this up or it will be deleted.

In the case of the first story, I think this refers to the research done by Parnia.
http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

 

[PIT2]

This is a link to the dog story:

In July 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to bring dogs back to life with no brain damage by draining the blood out of the dog's bodies and putting an ice cold solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After 3 hours of being clinically dead, the dogs were revived by delivering an electric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life. Scientists hope to begin human testing and have already begun discussions with hospitals to use "suspended animation" if everything else fails. Safar Research also pioneered modern CPR (cardio-pulmonary resuscitation) techniques.

While most of the dogs were fine, a few of the revived dogs had severe nervous and movement coordination damage, causing them to be mentally disabled, and demonstrating behavior that was deemed "zombie" like. This has been pushed further by the media which named them "zombie dogs".[1] There is concern that this technique, if used on humans could result in brain damage similar to those suffered by some of the dogs in the experiment. Safar Research believes that the process is merely another way to give "more time" to the operation table, as vital repairs could be made when patients are in stasis: emergency operations fail frequently simply because of the lack of time, not the lack of expertise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspended_animation

They did something like this on the now famous Pam Reynolds, which after rescucitation was able to describe a very detailed near death experience, including an OBE and a view of 'the afterlife'. Details she saw and heard during her OBE were verified. The surgery lasted 5 or 6 hours, but i remember the period she was actually 'dead' was more like 50 minutes.

Her case was mentioned in other research on near death experiences:

Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

That study concluded:

Another theory holds that NDE might be a changing state of consciousness (transcendence), in which identity, cognition, and emotion function independently from the unconscious body, but retain the possibility of non-sensory perception.7,8,22,28,31

Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences.

 

[nannoh]

This is a link to the dog story:



They did something like this on the now famous Pam Reynolds, which after rescucitation was able to describe a very detailed near death experience, including an OBE and a view of 'the afterlife'. Details she saw and heard during her OBE were verified. The surgery lasted 5 or 6 hours, but i remember the period she was actually 'dead' was more like 50 minutes.

Her case was mentioned in other research on near death experiences:



That study concluded:

I would personally encourage the study of evoked "near life experiences" (NLE) rather than concentrating on "what its like to be dead". This could only add "soul" to what is today often considered a "souless" society.

 

[PIT2]

I would personally encourage the study of evoked "near life experiences" (NLE) rather than concentrating on "what its like to be dead". This could only add "soul" to what is today often considered a "souless" society.

Whats a near life experience?

 

[nannoh]

Whats a near life experience?

Many people are afraid of life because of the many perceived dangers that come with it. These dangers are emphasized everyday by the media, professionals and even parents.

A chronic, condition of introversion has spread into societies where real and imagined dangers keep people behind locked doors. There they gather continuous confirmation about how dangerous life is from news casts, pharmaceutical promotions, reality shows and a host of other uninvited but attractive commentaries.

Many people are often compelled to visit doctors and specialists because of a fleeting pain or anxiety and there their fears are supported by professionally compiled statistics about anonymous "subjects" who appear to be just like them and with the same symtoms.

This tyranny of fear has been exported to places around the world via industry, the military, commercialism and corporate manipulation. It serves to bolster an economic purpose that is enjoyed by a small number of 'entrepreneurs' while terrorizing the majority of a population.

In a paradoxical and contradictory manner death is also feared; even though no one knows what it entails. Fear of the unknown goes a long way toward motivating a fear of life and of death.

The more people fear living and/or dieing the less they will personally experience in life. There will be a tendency to avoid most of the activities associated with living aside from eating, sleeping and "staying safe". This deters the competition that might otherwise democratically steer a society into lively debates and critical discussion concerning its direction in life.

When people get out of the sandwich of fear (of death and life) they will experience life to its fullest or, in the least, they will have a "near life experience".

 

[jaynebeal]

Thank you my champions...l.o.l...Sorry I didn't post the research myself...have been away..I shall come better prepared next time...apologies if I upset anyone by not citing it earlier. Thanks once again.

 

[Evo]

In the case of the first story, I think this refers to the research done by Parnia.
http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

No, I see no link. I searched the entire story, do you see anything about a shoe?

 

[PIT2]

Here it is, the shoe:

Social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp says she couldn't come to terms with her own out of body, near-death experience until one of her own patients had one. Sharp's patient went into cardiac arrest. After she was resuscitated, the patient insisted she had risen out of her body and floated up around the hospital where she saw a blue tennis shoe on the third floor ledge. To calm down her patient Sharp went to look. "I did find a blue tennis shoe on the ledge," said Sharp. "She got everything right as she described it to me."
http://www.nbc10.com/news/3253894/detail.html

And

What of women like "Maria," a migrant worker who had a heart attack while visiting friends in Seattle? While being resuscitated, she floated out of the coronary care ward of the hospital and was distracted by a tennis shoe on the ledge of the third floor of the north wing. According to Kenneth Ring, a professor of psychology famed worldwide for his research on near-death experiences, Maria described that tennis shoe in detail, including the fact that one of the laces was tucked under the heel. A shocked social worker reported that the tennis shoe, with a lace tucked underneath, was indeed on the third-floor ledge.
http://home.comcast.net/~neardeath/nde/001_pages/44.html

 

[mubashirmansoor]

I've heard some other stories of this type too, what if its all true?
In that case there is something which we don't know, we don't know many things but I don't really think proving this is impossible...
What have been experts saying about this?

 

[verty]

The experts say "I'll believe in aliens when they land in my back garden."

 

[Chaos' lil bro Order]

Many people are afraid of life because of the many perceived dangers that come with it. These dangers are emphasized everyday by the media, professionals and even parents.

A chronic, condition of introversion has spread into societies where real and imagined dangers keep people behind locked doors. There they gather continuous confirmation about how dangerous life is from news casts, pharmaceutical promotions, reality shows and a host of other uninvited but attractive commentaries.

Many people are often compelled to visit doctors and specialists because of a fleeting pain or anxiety and there their fears are supported by professionally compiled statistics about anonymous "subjects" who appear to be just like them and with the same symtoms.

This tyranny of fear has been exported to places around the world via industry, the military, commercialism and corporate manipulation. It serves to bolster an economic purpose that is enjoyed by a small number of 'entrepreneurs' while terrorizing the majority of a population.

In a paradoxical and contradictory manner death is also feared; even though no one knows what it entails. Fear of the unknown goes a long way toward motivating a fear of life and of death.

The more people fear living and/or dieing the less they will personally experience in life. There will be a tendency to avoid most of the activities associated with living aside from eating, sleeping and "staying safe". This deters the competition that might otherwise democratically steer a society into lively debates and critical discussion concerning its direction in life.

When people get out of the sandwich of fear (of death and life) they will experience life to its fullest or, in the least, they will have a "near life experience".

Excellent post. You are very wise and a gifted writer.

I know we're getting a little off topic, but I was thinking about one thing in particular that you said, which was, 'A chronic, condition of introversion has spread into societies where real and imagined dangers keep people behind locked doors.' My question is to what factors you would attribute this chronic introversion to. I'm guessing its socio-political. A few micro examples would be nice.