Why Does Mitt Romney Pay Lower Taxes Than His Secretary?

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Mitt Romney's tax returns revealed he paid a lower tax rate than many middle-class Americans, primarily due to his income being derived from capital gains, which are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income. This situation highlights perceived flaws in the U.S. tax system, which is intended to be progressive but often benefits the wealthy through loopholes and preferential treatment for investment income. Proposed solutions include taxing unearned income at higher rates than earned income and creating additional tax tiers based on how assets were acquired. Critics argue that a significant portion of the population pays little to no taxes, which could lead to a lack of incentive to control government spending. The discussion emphasizes the need for tax reform to address wealth inequality while considering the potential impact on retirement savings and investment behaviors.
  • #51
russ_watters said:
Yeah, I'm not someone who believes in the idea of governments forced equality of outcome as a matter of general moral/philosophical principle. And IMO, I think the historical record shows it to be counterproductive in the long run.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...th-recovers-but-largely-for-those-at-the-top/

I'm not posting this to change your mind, but just to provide an update for a possible cut off point with this source. On one hand, the latest total US net worth estimate was up sharply in 2014. These estimates are much more difficult than estimates based on income. While net worth is up, the given entry point for household (not per capita) net worth was about 2.3 million USD for the top 1% of household net worth (from this source). This is lower than I expected, but for now I'd set the cut off at 2.5 million household net worth for a flat 1.5% tax rate on net worth. This means the tax applies to the remainder after subtracting 2.5 million. Approved charitable and philanthropic donations and other taxes paid would be fully deductible from the net worth tax base. No need to reply.
 
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  • #52
russ_watters said:
It is a lot harder to track assets abroad than income abroad. If I buy a beach house in Cancun, is the IRS going to send an appraiser there every few years to assess its value?
No, assuming that I understand IRS logic, they would ask you to do it on your own. And fine you if you do it incorrectly. Plus judging from the way that they treat US citizens living abroad (who shockingly have some bank accounts abroad... yes, highly suspicious), you'd be presumed guilty, unless you prove otherwise.

When 40+% of people pay no or negative income tax, we already have an extremely progressive taxation system.
With those preferential way of treating capital gains, I'm far from calling US system as highly progressive. From countries that I faced with my own money - flat 19% Poland, 25% with tax free amount in Germany.

In the US you have such not fully desirable system of "winner takes it all". I mean the salary difference between manager vs. average worker in the US is much higher than in EU countries, and I really doubt that your managers are so many times more brilliant than those on our side of Atlantic.

Thus I perceive highly progressive tax as one of many potential way of deal with that "winner takes it all" approach. (in case of companies it looks like failed corporate governance)

And peoples' biggest piece of "idle wealth" is their retirement savings, so just like picking loaded investments over unloaded ones, a wealth tax - even a seemingly small 1.5% - over the course of 40 or 50 years can have a massive impact on your retirement standard of living.
As idle wealth I mean for example bloated balance sheets of many companies nowadays. Nothing inherently wrong about it, just it is not specially effective solution for the society.

I'm not advocating 1.5% property tax (unless it supposed to be connected with phasing out income tax). I'm just saying that in discussion whether to tax income or property, I'd say rather property.

(logic: less distorts economic decisions and robs rather oligarchs than people actively reinvesting)
 
  • #53
russ_watters said:
Well, I'm getting confused then by all the different proposals. If untaxed income is the problem, why are we even talking about wealth?

On its own though, even if your plan only targeted the 1% I'd still oppose it because:
1. It opens a door I'd rather keep closed.
2. I don't like the idea of taking money from someone just because in someone's estimation they can afford to lose it.
3. Wealth is not idle money. By existing, it helps grow the economy.
4. reducing American ownership of our economy will increase foreign ownership of our economy.
2. Can't you use this argument against absolutely any tax?
3. Depends. Gov is mediocre at let say making a working business, so you need desperately a private owner there. But there are simpler areas - let's say keeping low risk bonds, where from third parties perspective private owner is expendable. And you can use here gov agency / central bank - as it was recently done during quantitative easing.
4. Who said you can not also hit foreigners with witholding taxes? Or especially if you tried to "go big" on taxes, make a deal with the EU (and later other countries) on some common tax block, to keep tax uniformly, moderately high and very harsh withholding taxes on the border of such block.
 
  • #54
rude man said:
That cost is subject to a 2% threshold. I doubt his tax prep fee was on the order of $20e6*0.02 = $400,000.

I did not say what you "quoted".
 
  • #55
Czcibor said:
I'm far from calling US system as highly progressive. From countries that I faced with my own money - flat 19% Poland, 25% with tax free amount in Germany.

The top US rate is 28.6%. In California, it's 41.9%, which would make it #2 in the OECD, just under Denmark's 42.0%.
 
  • #56
Vanadium 50 said:
You do know that Romney's 1040 is public. One can look, and not speculate.

Romney paid $3M of tax on $21M of income. He had a $3M deduction for gifts to charity. He had $12M in capital gains, but - and this is a big but - it was offset by $5M in capital losses. I am not a tax accountant, but I expect this is a bigger effect than the capital gains rate, especially since Romney is subject to the AMT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...128882-0c20-11e2-a310-2363842b7057_story.html

Now that I was able establish a cut off for taxing the wealth of the top 1%, and only the top 1%, I thought I'd re evaluate Romney's tax situation in 2012 in the light of the wealth tax I described (post 51). As indicated, Romney paid about $3 million on $21 million of income, or about 14.3%. His disclosed maximum net worth at the time was stated to be $254 million. Now if he also had to pay my wealth tax, what would his overall federal tax be? He gets 2.5 million off because that's the cutoff. He can deduct his taxes for an additional 3 million and 3 million for charity. His adjusted net worth is then 245.5 million. The net worth tax is a flat 1.5% so he pays 3.68 million. Added to the 3 million he actually paid, his tax would have been 6.68 million. That is a 31.8% tax rate. Romney was in the 35% income tax bracket which (now) begins around $450,000, so most of his income would have been taxed at that rate without the significant reductions from using the long term capital gains rate. I don't know if Romney would have left the country or not if he had to pay this tax. Romney made his money in private equity, buying out sick companies cheap, fixing them and then selling them at a profit. I think private equity is a good thing. I don't think he could have done this in Panama to the extent he can do it here. In any case, he would have to give up his citizenship to avoid the US tax liability.
 
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  • #57
I don't like your plan.

$2.5M sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but having that much at age 68 does not make one Daddy Warbucks. Retiring on that allows for an income of $100,00 per year, which is about what a senior engineer makes. The fact of the matter is that most of the 1% are people nearing retirement or just after retirement. If one works for 50 years - say from 20 to 70 - one of those years is going to have the most money in it. So being in the "2 %" at some point in your life is not particularly rare. Being in the 1% is twice as rare, but only twice as rare. To take this a bit personally, I think it would be a crappy thing for the government to encourage me to save, and then on the verge of retirement start clutching that savings away.

I'm already unhappy with the government taxing ants to support grasshoppers. My neighbor took a second mortgage on her house, used the money to finance multiple trips to Vegas. She tried to get the first mortgage forgiven under HAMP. I didn't go to Las Vegas, and instead paid off my mortgage. Now my net worth is higher than hers - Why should I be subsidizing her trips to Vegas?

Philosophically, I am also opposed to it. A tax on wealth effectively says that you don't own anything - the government does, and is only letting you use it. The Fifth Amendment specifically prohibits this, for exactly this reason. (Which is why the Sixteenth Amendment was passed, permitting an income tax)
 
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  • #58
SW VandeCarr said:
Now that I was able establish a cut off for taxing the wealth of the top 1%, and only the top 1%,
I would argue that amounts to a "Bill of attainder." It singles out an identifiable group for seizure of property without compensation . Founders anticipated this sort of thinking and forbade it to both congress and the states.

You'd have to tax everybody's wealth (horizontal equity) at a graduated rate (vertical equity).
3_1_2015_b3-moore-chart-03028201_s878x512.jpg

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/1/stephen-moore-do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share-of-/
 
  • #59
Vanadium 50 said:
I don't like your plan.

$2.5M sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but having that much at age 68 does not make one Daddy Warbucks. Retiring on that allows for an income of $100,00 per year, which is about what a senior engineer makes. The fact of the matter is that most of the 1% are people nearing retirement or just after retirement. If one works for 50 years - say from 20 to 70 - one of those years is going to have the most money in it. So being in the "2 %" at some point in your life is not particularly rare. Being in the 1% is twice as rare, but only twice as rare. To take this a bit personally, I think it would be a crappy thing for the government to encourage me to save, and then on the verge of retirement start clutching that savings away.

I'm already unhappy with the government taxing ants to support grasshoppers. My neighbor took a second mortgage on her house, used the money to finance multiple trips to Vegas. She tried to get the first mortgage forgiven under HAMP. I didn't go to Las Vegas, and instead paid off my mortgage. Now my net worth is higher than hers - Why should I be subsidizing her trips to Vegas?

Philosophically, I am also opposed to it. A tax on wealth effectively says that you don't own anything - the government does, and is only letting you use it. The Fifth Amendment specifically prohibits this, for exactly this reason. (Which is why the Sixteenth Amendment was passed, permitting an income tax)

Hmmm. I thought you were Canadian. Anyway, at 2.5 M, the wealth tax is 0. That's the cutoff. If it were 5 M and there were no deductions for charity or other taxes paid, it would be $37500. For some, that might be the only tax they pay. The rate could be less, the cut off higher, maybe more deductions, etc. The article in my post 51 indicated the US net worth jumped to 81 trillion in 2014, and almost all of the increase was in the top 1%! The middle class had negative net worth "growth". Articles cited in previous posts indicated nearly 35% of the US net worth was held by the top 1%. With the newer 81T figure, it might be closer to 40%. This is actually unprecedented. This is how permanent aristocracies get established and become entrenched. If the problem is the concentration of wealth, then at least part of the solution is to tax wealth. I actually don't like wealth taxes either. I'm comfortably retired and haven't paid any income tax for several years (but I'm not in the top 1% of wealth using the Pew Research figure). Raising income taxes does not work for most of this group.. If not a wealth tax, what?
 
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  • #60
Vanadium 50 said:
The top US rate is 28.6%. In California, it's 41.9%, which would make it #2 in the OECD, just under Denmark's 42.0%.
OK, so the US problem with taxation is not lack of progressive tax rates (in theory they are even high by world standards), its more introducing dozens of preferential rates that make those progressive tax rates not applicable. And after noticing that the system is broken, instead of repairing it - introducing alternative minimum tax.
 
  • #61
Vanadium 50 said:
I'm already unhappy with the government taxing ants to support grasshoppers. My neighbor took a second mortgage on her house, used the money to finance multiple trips to Vegas. She tried to get the first mortgage forgiven under HAMP. I didn't go to Las Vegas, and instead paid off my mortgage. Now my net worth is higher than hers - Why should I be subsidizing her trips to Vegas?
I consider such area of activity, that proper nanny state should hit with high sin taxes. Would it satisfy you?
Philosophically, I am also opposed to it. A tax on wealth effectively says that you don't own anything - the government does, and is only letting you use it. The Fifth Amendment specifically prohibits this, for exactly this reason. (Which is why the Sixteenth Amendment was passed, permitting an income tax)
Is your philosophy self consistent? Which taxes would not violate it?

I mean in case of ex. any consumption tax, the gov says you that you don't own what you paid for, before you pay gov its share...
 
  • #62
My residency situation is...um...complex. And it will likely become more so soon.

I have a rather old-fashioned view of taxes. I think the purpose of a tax is to raise revenue. When we start to alter this to suit, shall we say "larger purposes", we get into trouble. You can see it even in this thread - the government sets out a tax code to encourage certain behaviors, and when people alter their behaviors to align with what the government wants, people complain that they are taking advantage of loopholes. One problem with extremely progressive taxes - in California, 1% of the population pays 50% of the taxes - is that the income of the top earners is highly volatile (indeed, even the identify of those top earners is highly volatile), and thus so is the state revenue. Now, if your goal is to punish the wealthy, maybe this isn't so bad, but if your goal is to raise revenue, it's a problem. It's especially a problem because, as discussed in other threads, that the wealthy take a disproportionate hit in economic downturns, which is precisely the time the state needs more revenue.

The Fifth Amendment's taking clause is there to prevent 51% of the population from voting that the other 49% has to give them their stuff. If we open the door to that by saying, it's totally different this time - here's it's 99% of the population from voting that the other 1% has to give them their stuff - I think it's only a matter of time before we reach that point. I don't believe that's a sustainable model. Particularly when grasshopper-ism is subsidized at the expense of ant-ism.

As far as philosophical consistent, I don't care. I'm arguing not that this is wrong - although I think it is - I am arguing that it is impractical.
 
  • #63
Why did the thread start with the example of Mitt Romney's taxes, versus, say, Hillary & Bill Clinton's taxes, or the Clinton foundation's taxes, or say,even Barak Obama's taxes?
Should Obama be required to declare the millions of tax dollars spent to cover his golfing outings and family vacations as taxable income?

In 2014, the United States government collected all time record tax revenues in an anemic economy; adjusted unemployment figures that now include many millions fewer full-time working Americans, record numbers of adults who have quit looking for work and young adults who have never found full time work uncounted in the pool of unemployed, and all time record numbers of people receiving government entitlements subsidies. So, if positing social economic questions on a physics forum:

How much is a "fair share" of anyone's wealth, rich or poor, for the government to take and then redistribute for any purpose?
Is the government entitled to more than half of what someone earns over $250K/year for example?
Is it "fair" for government to be unconstrained in taxing, borrowing, printing, and most of all "spending" American's wealth -- always in excess of what is collected?
How big should big government get, and will bigger government be a more efficient, less wasteful, more "fair" government?
Is there a glaring reason >50% want no change in the thousands of pages of the current tax codes?
Can any of you who earn a substantial wage even understand the tax codes without having to hire someone to file your taxes for you?
If it is legal to pay less taxes, then is it "fair" to pay less taxes, ("legal", according to that tax code and those who wrote it (bending to special interests in many cases)?
Would someone please ask Bill and Hillary, and their foundation's accountants the answer to that one?
What is the primary reason than many "wealthy" (even more, the not-so-wealthy) persons choose not to work, only to earn more taxable income?
Are the marginal tax rates really what needs need fixing,? . . . or is it Romney's income tax that needs to be examined most closely? . . . or is there something else very wrong?
 
  • #64
TCups said:
Why did the thread start with the example of Mitt Romney's taxes, versus, say, Hillary & Bill Clinton's taxes, or the Clinton foundation's taxes, or say,even Barak Obama's taxes?

Thanks. I was about to point out Romney did it the same was Michael Moore did it - he hired a tax man.

Difference is Romney improved the companies he touched. Moore only peddled cynicism and hate .
 
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  • #65
Vanadium 50 said:
I have a rather old-fashioned view of taxes. I think the purpose of a tax is to raise revenue. When we start to alter this to suit, shall we say "larger purposes", we get into trouble. You can see it even in this thread - the government sets out a tax code to encourage certain behaviors, and when people alter their behaviors to align with what the government wants, people complain that they are taking advantage of loopholes.
That's the main function, but some additional targets may be received on the way.

Yes, I'm very impressed by US tax code. ;)

My idea with US tax system would be actually to slash those "larger purposes regulations" and keep simple but progressive tax system. (maybe slash top income rates and add minor net wealth tax)

One problem with extremely progressive taxes - in California, 1% of the population pays 50% of the taxes - is that the income of the top earners is highly volatile (indeed, even the identify of those top earners is highly volatile), and thus so is the state revenue. Now, if your goal is to punish the wealthy, maybe this isn't so bad, but if your goal is to raise revenue, it's a problem. It's especially a problem because, as discussed in other threads, that the wealthy take a disproportionate hit in economic downturns, which is precisely the time the state needs more revenue.
Cycle dependent tax source is something good, you just have to know how to use it.
First - you have an automatic stimulus package equivalent during bad years.
Second - you have to put in your law structural balance (also known as cyclically-adjusted balance), which would force gov to save during boom years and allow to go into deficit during bad years.

(in the EU we passed such kind of law during the crisis. It has to be put in way that can't be manipulated easily, so we have it form a international treaty, you'd presumably have to use a constitutional amendment)

The Fifth Amendment's taking clause is there to prevent 51% of the population from voting that the other 49% has to give them their stuff. If we open the door to that by saying, it's totally different this time - here's it's 99% of the population from voting that the other 1% has to give them their stuff - I think it's only a matter of time before we reach that point. I don't believe that's a sustainable model. Particularly when grasshopper-ism is subsidized at the expense of ant-ism.
And Second Amendment is to protect you against tyranny...

Looks for me as one of many cases where Americans proudly claim that defended themselves against a risk that actually do not seem to exist in any other first world country.
 
  • #66
Vanadium 50 said:
The Fifth Amendment's taking clause is there to prevent 51% of the population from voting that the other 49% has to give them their stuff. If we open the door to that by saying, it's totally different this time - here's it's 99% of the population from voting that the other 1% has to give them their stuff - I think it's only a matter of time before we reach that point. I don't believe that's a sustainable model. Particularly when grasshopper-ism is subsidized at the expense of ant-ism.

It's not just the 51% of the population which one must worry about, but the greed of local governments in creating more sources of revenue, i.e. more things to tax.

I call your attention to the case of Kelo v. City of New London, which was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court 10 years ago this summer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

In this case, a private real estate developer approached the town of New London, CT with the plan to build a new research park, but there was on snag: the land for the planned research park was already the site of a residential neighborhood. The developer stood to gain control of a sizable piece of waterfront property for the nominal fee of $1 per year, while the town would supposedly gain from the additional tax revenue generated by the new tenants in the research park. The only people who stood in the way of consummating this deal were the residents of the neighborhood. The town fixed them by condemning their property under eminent domain. The residents sued the city, and the case went all the way to the state supreme court, where the residents lost. The residents filed suit in federal court, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where they lost again. It was a pyrrhic victory for New London and the developer, however, because financing for the project could not be found and the project ultimately collapsed, but not before the property was cleared of the condemned buildings, leaving a large lot which remains vacant today.

This case did some good nationally in that people recognized that the Fifth Amendment could no longer be relied on as the sole protector of their rights as property owners. Many state and local laws were passed in the wake of the Kelo decision to prevent the sort of collusion between developers and local governments which led to the destruction of this New London neighborhood. But this case raised troubling questions about the future. What new machinations will local, state or federal governments use to gather ever greater revenue streams as their budget demands grow? Will the Constitution be a sufficiently powerful instrument against the ever-grasping hand of government?
 
  • #67
Kelo was an eye-opener for me. There the government took from the poor to give to the rich, and which justices were in favor of that? Not the ones you might think.
 
  • #68
As usual, because not being American, I fail to see the outraging problem here. I barely can imagine any bigger infrastructure project done in my country without such compulsory purchase transactions.

(except of usual quarrel concerning what exactly the fair price is)
 
  • #69
In Kelo it wasn't a public project. It was private. The government mandated a sale from poor owners to rich buyers, under the argument that this would increase tax revenues. Had the government instead made this a public area - say a park, or even a sewage treatment plant - the case would never have gone to court.
 
  • #70
Vanadium 50 said:
In Kelo it wasn't a public project. It was private. The government mandated a sale from poor owners to rich buyers, under the argument that this would increase tax revenues. Had the government instead made this a public area - say a park, or even a sewage treatment plant - the case would never have gone to court.

Yes, I've read wiki. And don't see a special problem here, except that in such cases, where public interest is vague, to make the previous owner compensation let's say 120% of the market value.
 
  • #71
Vanadium 50 said:
In Kelo it wasn't a public project. It was private. The government mandated a sale from poor owners to rich buyers, under the argument that this would increase tax revenues. Had the government instead made this a public area - say a park, or even a sewage treatment plant - the case would never have gone to court.
It was never clear to me that by condemning the Fort Trumbull property through eminent domain, the City of New London was required to offer compensation to the owners for their property, or what amount was offered if there was indeed an offer of compensation by the City.

There is an old saying in America that "A man's home is his castle". In his dissent to the Kelo opinion, Justice Thomas pithily observed, "Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's interpretation of the Constitution. Though citizens are safe from the government in their homes, the homes themselves are not."
 
  • #72
Czcibor said:
Yes, I've read wiki. And don't see a special problem here, except that in such cases, where public interest is vague, to make the previous owner compensation let's say 120% of the market value.
Never going to happen.

If the public interest is that vague, then the "public" has no business on my property. The "public" can get its own damn property.
 
  • #73
SteamKing said:
Never going to happen.

If the public interest is that vague, then the "public" has no business on my property. The "public" can get its own damn property.

Anyway - how are you able to build a mine in the US? It's a private business... Only in the middle of nowhere?
 
  • #74
Czcibor said:
Anyway - how are you able to build a mine in the US? It's a private business... Only in the middle of nowhere?
Private businesses purchase, lease, or rent land all the time in the US: to build factories, open stores, dig mines, or whatever.

Property owners, in most cases, also own the mineral rights to fossil fuels, ores, or whatever lies on or beneath their property. Oil and gas companies, for example, can lease the rights to explore for these minerals if the owner doesn't want to sell the property and pay the owner a royalty on the amount of any minerals ultimately found and extracted. That's how Jed Clampett made his fortune:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beverly_Hillbillies

It's when private business decides to go into business with government that things can get weird. A private business can't force you to give up your property because it wants to, but government has more resources available at its disposal to condemn and take property from its owner. A government, unlike a business, can afford to stay in court a lot longer if the situation warrants. Unlike a private business, a government does not have to show a profit; it can coerce the payment of taxes to keep funding its operations if need be.

Also, as an aside, mines and oil wells are sometimes not conveniently located in the middle of nowhere. There is an active oil field located beneath Beverly Hills, California, a very expensive suburb of Los Angeles. Architects and engineers got creative at disguising the machinery of oil extraction in the heart of a very tony residential district:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Oil_Field
 
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  • #75
SK:
In Sweden they are moving whole town to make place for their iron ore mine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26447507
(I should be able to find some similar cases with Polish coal mines, but I'm not sure whether in English)So your point is that such crucial, but private investment, each land owner should have a right to extort some exorbitant price / sabotage whole project?
 
  • #76
Czcibor said:
So your point is that such crucial, but private investment, each land owner should have a right to extort some exorbitant price / sabotage whole project?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate) for examples (not just in the US).

Usually an agreement is reached, as a house surrounded by (say) a shopping mall would be an unpleasant place to live. And I would say that for a private project, yes, if the developer wants something I have, we should negotiate.
 
  • #77
Vanadium 50 said:
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate) for examples (not just in the US).

Usually an agreement is reached, as a house surrounded by (say) a shopping mall would be an unpleasant place to live. And I would say that for a private project, yes, if the developer wants something I have, we should negotiate.

I have such resistant tiny restaurant with fried chickens in the center of my city, so I fully get the idea.

I checked law in country. Technically "public purpose", but it is understood very widely, and it involve private business in mining, dams, infrastructure, power lines, pipelines, etc.

Anyway - your view - should private land owner have a right to make a hold out or not? (or just be forced to accept a minor ransom)

You know... paradoxically in such case it seems that I'm more business friendly... funny, isn't it?
 
  • #78
Czcibor said:
SK:
In Sweden they are moving whole town to make place for their iron ore mine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26447507
(I should be able to find some similar cases with Polish coal mines, but I'm not sure whether in English)So your point is that such crucial, but private investment, each land owner should have a right to extort some exorbitant price / sabotage whole project?

Just as a company has a right to try to build a mine, so does a property owner have a right to preserve his property, if he so chooses. There is nothing inevitable about building a mine. In fact, often many other people than the property owners immediately affected by the mine might protest its construction in the first place, because of environmental concerns, displacement of people who live there, whatever. It is better to negotiate an understanding, than that one side have a preponderance of power with which to get its way unfettered.

The property holdout is somewhat famous for frustrating the plans of larger, wealthier entities:

http://untappedcities.com/2015/04/1...e-world-that-stood-in-the-way-of-development/

(In the link above, pay particular attention to what some property holdouts had to say when Rockefellers came calling for their homes.)

This is the essential difference between having liberty and living in a society ruled solely by coercion from the state.

Sure, the Swedes can move a whole town to dig an iron ore mine, but I don't have to live there if I choose not to. If the Swedes choose to submit supinely to their alleged betters, that's their business.

The Soviets could requisition entire towns, and even whole regions, for state purposes, but they had to build walls to keep their people in, not the rest of the world out.
 
  • #79
SteamKing said:
The property holdout is somewhat famous for frustrating the plans of larger, wealthier entities:

http://untappedcities.com/2015/04/1...e-world-that-stood-in-the-way-of-development/

(In the link above, pay particular attention to what some property holdouts had to say when Rockefellers came calling for their homes.)
Funny...
Anyway - why are you posting link to show how dysfunctional results leads the law that you support?

This is the essential difference between having liberty and living in a society ruled solely by coercion from the state.
As already V50 pointed out, this law can often be made de facto void by buying everything around and remodel all your surroundings and making the living there unbearable...
...but in this case its surprisingly 100% OK.

Sure, the Swedes can move a whole town to dig an iron ore mine, but I don't have to live there if I choose not to. If the Swedes choose to submit supinely to their alleged betters, that's their business.

The Soviets could requisition entire towns, and even whole regions, for state purposes, but they had to build walls to keep their people in, not the rest of the world out.
Actually that town lives from iron ore. If someone was able to block this investment he would turn this town in long run to something... Detroit-like.
I'm just pointing out that the regulation that you support is harmful for development.

You know, rather not compare USA to Sweden... In Heritage Economic Freedom Rating, USA beats them in underwhelming way - both countries are counted as mostly free (13rd vs. 23rd).
 
  • #80
Czcibor said:
Funny...
Anyway - why are you posting link to show how dysfunctional results leads the law that you support?

It's not clear what results you consider "dysfunctional".

The owners of these properties (not all of which were located in the USA, by the way) chose their homes over offers of fantastic amounts of money from project developers. The developers had to adjust their plans somewhat, but they were not left entirely empty-handed. Rockefeller Center got built; it's just got a few extra corners that didn't show up on the original plans. The Rockefellers made some more money to go with the pile they already had amassed in the oil bidness.

I'm not against development, I'm against developers getting an unfair advantage by promising politicians something in return for removing any recalcitrant property owners who get in the developer's way. It's a slippery slope which can easily lead to graft and corruption, something which is not in short supply already.

As already V50 pointed out, this law can often be made de facto void by buying everything around and remodel all your surroundings and making the living there unbearable...
...but in this case its surprisingly 100% OK.

If I want to sell my property, then that ought to be my business and mine alone. I don't need some government official to make up my mind for me, and especially not one who is acting as a de facto agent for a developer, using the power of a government office to gain an unfair advantage.

I never said that a company shouldn't buy all the land it desires, as long as the previous owners are willing to sell. What I object to is a company attempting to use the power of the state to compel the separation of owners from their property, which is subtly different.

Actually that town lives from iron ore. If someone was able to block this investment he would turn this town in long run to something... Detroit-like.
I'm just pointing out that the regulation that you support is harmful for development.

And the Swedish town (just like Detroit), being a one-industry town, will probably suffer the same fate: when the iron ore runs out, this town will probably dry up and blow away. It's happened to countless other towns in the US, which staked their future on this mine or that industry, only to see everything lost when circumstances changed (the mine runs out of ore, the oil field runs dry, the car industry moves overseas, etc.)

Spain is home to some modern ghost towns, built in a speculative frenzy with the connivance of local politicians and real-estate developers:

http://fortune.com/2013/11/15/the-road-to-demolition-inside-a-spanish-ghost-town/

Not everyone agrees that unfettered development is desirable. Shocking perhaps, but true.

It's one reason we set aside land for national parks and such. We choose to forgo whatever economic benefits could be derived from harvesting a forest for timber or strip mining a mountain for coal or iron ore because the unspoiled land is considered more valuable. It's a hard concept to grasp.

When was the last time anyone visited a Soviet national park?
 
  • #81
I
jim hardy said:
I would argue that amounts to a "Bill of attainder." It singles out an identifiable group for seizure of property without compensation . Founders anticipated this sort of thinking and forbade it to both congress and the states.

You'd have to tax everybody's wealth (horizontal equity) at a graduated rate (vertical equity).

Since when is taxation a "seizure of property"? That sounds pretty exteme. The original constitution gave Congress the power to levy to taxes and the 16th amendment gave Congress the right to levy an income tax. US local governments have been taxing real property, often at gross asset value, for I don't know how long. The 16th amendment is specific to income, so any wealth tax would require an another amendment. Show me where even the original constitution or any law implies everyone should be taxed at a graduated rate?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/opinion/to-reduce-inequality-tax-wealth-not-income.html?_r=0

Displays like this make a big point of showing the wealthy overall pay more income taxes. They have higher incomes. That would be true even with flat rate income taxes. Do you have to convince people that the working class or poor pay less income tax? Do you want them to pay more tax? BTW, there's a hole in this chart. Where's the missing 8.9%?
 
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  • #82
Vanadium 50 said:
The top US rate is 28.6%. In California, it's 41.9%, which would make it #2 in the OECD, just under Denmark's 42.0%.
Actually, these tax rates are out of date. The top US income tax rate is now a whopping 39.6%, and it can be assessed on income for married couples filing separately who have income above $228,800.00 (and at higher income threshholds for other filing statuses). There are a total of seven income tax brackets now in the Internal Revenue Code, which number of brackets has grown since the tax reform back in
 
  • #83
SW VandeCarr said:
Since when is taxation a "seizure of property"? That sounds pretty exteme. The original constitution gave Congress the power to levy to taxes and the 16th amendment gave Congress the right to levy an income tax. US local governments have been taxing real property, often at gross asset value, for I don't know how long. The 16th amendment is specific to income, so any wealth tax would require an another amendment. Show me where even the original constitution or any law implies everyone should be taxed at a graduated rate?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/opinion/to-reduce-inequality-tax-wealth-not-income.html?_r=0

It's simple: if you don't pay your taxes, the state or the federal government can put a lien on your real property and seize and sell your personal property if the tax bill isn't paid. This applies to unpaid income tax as well as unpaid property tax.

You are correct about the Constitution giving Congress the power to tax. However, the Constitution originally treated direct taxation differently from indirect taxation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax#U.S._constitutional_law_sense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

A direct tax is a tax levied on someone or something merely because it exists. A property tax is an example of a direct tax: the owner of record for a certain piece of property on a certain date during the year accrues a liability for paying the tax (it doesn't matter how the tax is calculated). Another example of a direct tax is a capitation tax, sometimes called a poll tax. It is levied on a person merely for being alive and drawing breath.

Direct taxes were controversial when the Constitution was drafted, because some of the delegates feared that direct taxation led the way to tyranny from the government levying the tax. As one group said at the time when the document had been sent to the states for ratification,

"The power of direct taxation applies to every individual ... it cannot be evaded like the objects of imposts or excise, and will be paid, because all that a man hath will he give for his head. This tax is so congenial to the nature of despotism, that it has ever been a favorite under such governments. ... The power of direct taxation will further apply to every individual ... however oppressive, the people will have but this alternative, either to pay the tax, or let their property be taken for all resistance will be vain."

To stop the possibility of abuse, the original Constitution mandated that direct taxes had to be apportioned among the states, that is, by population.

OTOH, an indirect tax is a tax on a transaction of some sort, like the sale of goods. Sales taxes and VATs are examples of indirect taxes. If no sale takes place, no taxes are due.

Income taxes had been levied during the Civil War by the federal government, before the 16th Amendment was ratified. These proved to be a lucrative source of revenue for the government, which had been funded primarily by excise taxes and customs duties. The Civil War income taxes expired in 1872, but politicians have long memories when it comes to devising ways to increase government revenue.

At various times after 1872, various proposals and party platforms called for reviving the income tax, but all went nowhere until an amendment was made to a tariff bill which passed in 1894. The income tax provision was not popular in all parts of the country and suit was filed to get it struck down. As the country grew, various court cases had added to the list of direct taxes: income taxes on rents, dividends, and interest were ruled to be direct taxes based on the tariff case decided by the Supreme Court in 1895, which meant these taxes had to be apportioned among the states based on population. Taxes on wages, which are indirect under the law, were not initially affected, but the ruling of the Court established the principle that the source of the income had an immediate effect on determining whether a tax on such income was to be considered direct or indirect.

After the dust settled from this ruling, things bubbled along until W.H. Taft was elected president and took office in 1909. Taft proposed that the congress levy an excise tax on corporations for the privilege of doing business. This excise tax was in reality an income tax, but Taft also recommended that congress draft a constitutional amendment which would overturn one of the key aspects of tax law which arose out of the 1895 Supreme Court decision in the tariff case: abolishing the distinction between direct and indirect taxes when levied by the federal government.

A number of factors made the reception to the idea of a federal income tax more palatable across a wide spectrum of private and political groups. The amendment which Taft had proposed was drafted and passed by congress and sent to the states for ratification, ultimately being adopted in 1913, allowing the federal government to levy an income tax without apportionment.

The passage and ratification of the 16th Amendment did not stop all litigation involving federal income taxes. A court case decided in 1916 ruled that the federal income tax statutes do not violate the Fifth Amendment guarantees against the government taking property (i.e. income) without due process of law.

As far as the mechanics of the collection of the federal income tax, that is not properly a function of constitutional law, but of the various congressional statutes which created the Internal Revenue Code and established the Internal Revenue Service to administer and enforce that Code. The Revenue Act of 1913 was passed in the wake of the ratification of the 16th Amendment and established a graduated income tax from the get-go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913

The top rate was 7% in 1913, and the amount of income which could be excluded essentially meant that most wage earners were not liable for paying any federal income taxes.

With the approach of World War I, the tax code rapidly became more complex and the number of income brackets multiplied significantly, until the top rate in 1918 was 77% and there were almost as many different income brackets.

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf
 
  • #84
Amazing to see tax rates such as in 1958: 50% marginal rate for married filing jointly at $32,000 and a top marginal rate of 94%. I think a typical middle class suburban house would have cost about $15,000 at that time, maybe a bit more in the northeasterm US. and less in southern California.
 
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  • #86
h://http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/333660/constitutional-fiasco-wealth-tax-matthew-j-franckttp/www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/333660/constitutional-fiasco-wealth-tax-matthew-j-franck
jim hardy said:
Art. I, §9, cl. 4: “No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/333660/constitutional-fiasco-wealth-tax-matthew-j-franck

If you're saying that a wealth tax (probably) isn't covered by the 16th Amendment, I agree and have been saying that since post 22. Any wealth tax would require a constitutional amendment.

BTW, have you tried the link? It cuts off after 10 seconds or so, at least for me. I'm using a Mac Pro (Safari).
 
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  • #87
This one works on my Win7/Firefox, no timeout
http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/333660/constitutional-fiasco-wealth-tax-matthew-j-franck

I'm just saying a wealth tax is an awful idea.
"Eat the rich" appeals to our basest instinct - anything big needs to be killed and eaten. While that may have got mankind through the ice age, these days it's a mob response.



SW VandeCarr said:
Do you have to convince people that the working class or poor pay less income tax? Do you want them to pay more tax?
some of the rich pay a LOT of tax, that was the point.
I favor a flat edit: uniform expenditure tax of less than 10%, and restraining government to live within that means. If that's a tax increase on the poor, well at least we know the rich are paying it too.Now - if you want to eat the insurance/financial industry I'm with you.
Have you seen the comments at http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/06/02/grand-central-a-letter-to-stingy-american-consumers/ ?
 
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  • #88
It's intellectually lazy to think that taxing wealth gets you anywhere in terms of restoring fiscal prudence to government: if anything, it makes government's appetite for money even more voracious.

Every year, Forbes Magazine releases a list of the 400 wealthiest Americans, the so-called Forbes 400. The latest list, from 2014, is here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryad...-facts-and-figures-about-americas-wealthiest/

The combined wealth of all these worthies (Bill Gates was No. 1 on the list) was a tad under $2.3 trillion.

For FY 2014, the Federal Government collected a shade over $3 trillion in taxes and fees of all sorts, including personal income taxes. However, it spent approximately $3.5 trillion in the same period, leaving a deficit (for just that year) of a tad under $500 billion, or $0.5 trillion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_United_States_federal_budget

In other words, you could seize the entire net worth of the Forbes 400 and you couldn't keep the federal government running for even 8 months of the fiscal year. What do you do in FY 2015? All the money from the Forbes 400 is gone, and Bill Gates and his former cohorts on the Forbes 400 list are living under an overpass somewhere.

Maybe the Federal Government should start a foundation to help it with its revenue worries. I know a certain couple of someones who could advise on how to set it up ...
 
  • #90
jim hardy said:
I'm just saying a wealth tax is an awful idea.
"Eat the rich" appeals to our basest instinct - anything big needs to be killed and eaten. While that may have got mankind through the ice age, these days it's a mob response.Now - if you want to eat the insurance/financial industry I'm with you.

OK. How about this?

http://www.apttax.com
 
  • #91
SW VandeCarr said:
OK. How about this?

At first glance it seems a step in the right direction. It taxes expenditure. It'd bring some reason to Wall Street "High Frequency Trading" which IMHO is an abusive practice.

What about cash transactions ? I don't favor "cashless economy" .
 
  • #92
jim hardy said:
At first glance it seems a step in the right direction. It taxes expenditure. It'd bring some reason to Wall Street "High Frequency Trading" which IMHO is an abusive practice.

What about cash transactions ? I don't favor "cashless economy" .

Cash is a small part of the money supply even now, and the trend is toward an essentially cashless economy. However, for a tax like this, cash transactions hardly matter unless you're talking about organized crime levels of transactions. If you're stopped by police with a wad of hundred dollar bills, they can legally confiscate it without a warrant or charges. The Fed will reduce currency in favor of M2, etc. Banks will charge extra for cash transactions. Besides, the APTT will be a federal tax. The states will still have their taxes, including retail sales taxes which dwarf the APTT.

The APTT lightly touches the middle class. For a family with a $60,000 income, it's hard to see how they could be taxed more than a $1000 in a year unless they're raiding their savings or taking out big loans. The APTT is highly skewed toward the wealthy, but I have a hard time seeing how it could produce the revenue claimed. A 0.35% tax on securities transactions (stocks, bonds) is huge. Talk about capital flight! Switzerland barely gets away with a 0.01% tax on securities transactions alone. Theoretically speaking , the base for the APTT is said to be 50-100 times GDP depending on the size of the financial industry realtive to the whole economy. Taking the US GDP at $18T multiplied by 50 you get 900T and this is based on old data. Fully evalutaing the current level of securities and bank transactions might be as high as $3 quadrillion (Qd)! Reading about it, I get the idea no one really knows. It's surely true that 0.35% is not feasible unless securities transactions are exluded, let alone HFT (which will be eliminated by any APTT), and without the stock and bond markets I have no idea where all this potential is.

IMHO I think some kind of an APTT may have a place, and it can reduce other taxes. It's a consumption tax, although a progressive one, and IMO needs to be balanced by an income tax, albeit at lower rates. I wouldn't object to a flat income tax, say 13-15% tax paired with some kind of APTT. There would need to be deductions for federal and state antipoverty programs. (I just thought I'd throw that in).

www.researchgate.net/']www.researchgate.net/...Taxation...(APT)_tax/.../0912f50572c3690e8e0.[/PLAIN]

There doesn't seem to be any links for this, but it's the best discussion I've found. There are plenty of other APT tax URLs of lower quality.
 
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  • #93
SW VandeCarr said:
If you're stopped by police with a wad of hundred dollar bills, they can legally confiscate it without a warrant or charges.

Has that been to supreme court yet ?
 
  • #94
jim hardy said:
Has that been to supreme court yet ?

Jeez! I wrote that whole thing and that's what you picked up on? I don't know, but RICO has past muster and I think this stuff has been justified by the RICO statutes. I really don't want to go off topic with this but it's a license to steal. Many innocent people have been victimized. Here, you're guilty until proven innocent. Start another thread if you want and I'll contribute. Please no more posts about this in this thread.
 
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  • #95
Well i'd like to see something like the APTT replace the personal income tax, not accompany it.
 
  • #96
jim hardy said:
Well i'd like to see something like the APTT replace the personal income tax, not accompany it.

So would I. It has many good attributes. It has a broad base and a low rate. It can be fully automated and easily administered. It's progressive, and largely painless unless you're heavily involved in securies trading or doing very large transactions. We could do away with the IRS, although Treasury agents would need be on the lookout for large cash transactions. However, what is the optimal rate that doesn't disrupt the markets but still brings enough revenue? The boosters of this tax say it can replace the income tax, estate tax and others. They say the optimal rate is 0.35%, but if you read their literature, they talk about a decline in trading volume from 25 to 50%. No one knows the potential of this tax. The few transaction taxes that have been used are an order of magnitude smaller, and 0.01% will not bring enough revenue.
 
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