News Some humiliating stats on the USA

[Kerrie]

Immigrants entering the country legally, which meet various criteria (financial, educational, and of course criminal record) is one matter. The problem with illegal aliens is another matter of large numbers and no criteria, which is damaging to the U.S. not matter how you want to argue it. Are they flooding in because the U.S. is better than Mexico? Of course. Does this make it okay or a good thing for the U.S.? No. Try to become a citizen in Canada, and other countries. It's hard, and it should be.

oh yes, i am quite aware of how difficult it is to become a citizen of Canada (as far as Americans are concerned)...our country was founded on a melting pot community-a great percentage of us can say we had relatives who immigrated (in one form or another) to the USA. the last I read, immigration was getting much tougher at the border of Arizona where many flood in illegally. also, keep in mind, many of these immigrants take the jobs many naturally born citizens refuse to take. where I live (Oregon), we have a large amount of immigrants who do the farm work that others are "too good" to do. that food from that farm makes it to my table, so do I have a right to complain? as far as immigration being hard, most of those applying for citizenship have to take a very strict test, one most naturally born citizens cannot pass.

you say that this is damaging, and the one example i can think of that it is damaging is when the illegals rush into an emergency room for things such as colds and the flu, basically not life-threatening issues (i know an emergency room doctor who deals with this all the time). i agree that we should get stricter about illegals because of the recent terrorist events, but i wouldn't be in America if it weren't for the melting pot, all of my family has immigrated from communist countries from the early part of the 20th century. they all worked very hard, were self-employed, and were successful.

 

[EL]

...and not in the most powerful nation in the world

So?...

 

[Informal Logic]

also, keep in mind, many of these immigrants take the jobs many naturally born citizens refuse to take. where I live (Oregon), we have a large amount of immigrants who do the farm work that others are "too good" to do. that food from that farm makes it to my table, so do I have a right to complain?

Not meaning to digress further from the original thread, but I see news programs, such as CNN where it is hotly debated that Americans would do many of these jobs (restaurant, hospitality, landscaping, etc.) if the pay was in keeping with the cost of living. Regardless of this, it has been argued that these immigrants should be in the country legally via work visas, as use to be applied successfully.

but i wouldn't be in America if it weren't for the melting pot, all of my family has immigrated from communist countries from the early part of the 20th century. they all worked very hard, were self-employed, and were successful.

My guess is that you and your family immigrated legally, and like so many foreign associates I know who also worked hard to enter the U.S. legally, have then assimilated and advanced to be citizens contributing via taxation, etc.

 

[cronxeh]

Forbes still has Gates on top. The Swedish magazine that put Kamprad on top was mistaken (he doesn't own Ikea). http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMany=25&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield1%2C%2Bstringfield2&resultsSortCategoryName=Rank&passKeyword=&category1=category&category2=category

RE the most powerful nation - what do you mean?

The reply was in response to another quote

In what other country can a college dropout become the richest man in the world?

Lots of countries. (E.g. Ingvar Kamprad from Sweden.)

 

[EL]

The reply was in response to another quote

Yes, but that was kind of the point: You don't need to come from a powerful country (USA) to become rich...

 

[Locrian]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20050309/ts_nm/life_infrastructure_dc

That actually bothers me more than most of the other things in this thread, though I'll admit I've just started researching how accurate the reporting is.

 

[loseyourname]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20050309/ts_nm/life_infrastructure_dc

That actually bothers me more than most of the other things in this thread, though I'll admit I've just started researching how accurate the reporting is.

Whether or not this is a problem depends in large part on where you live. Back in southern California the roads don't deteriorate nearly as quickly as in other places I have been to. Even though they are heavily travelled, the major factor in the formation of potholes (ice) is only present during the winter months for a couple of hours in the middle of the night. Regarding highways and bridges, I've found in my travels about the US that those in the best condition are consistently those paid for by user fees, which is why I've been such a huge proponent of this method of funding on these boards in the past. I've always been particularly impressed with the city of New York. If you look at the GWB, Verrazano, and Triborough, they're always in fairly good shape because they have a regular source of consistent funding that fluctuates exactly with how much traffic they carry. The east river bridges, on the other hand, are falling apart at times because they rely on tax money.

By the way, has anyone here every driven through Arkansas? What the heck is up with that state? As soon as you cross the bridge from Memphis, the I-40 turns into absolute crap, with potholes and cracks everywhere. It has to be the worst stretch of interstate anywhere in the US. When you get into Texas, the road is once again in fine condition.

 

[Pengwuino]

Most of those stats are highly inaccurate unfortunately. I've done a lot of research on stuff like this and its mainly incorrect information. Unfortunately, foreigners tend to gobble it up like its their Bible.

 

[Pengwuino]

oh yes, i am quite aware of how difficult it is to become a citizen of Canada (as far as Americans are concerned)...our country was founded on a melting pot community-a great percentage of us can say we had relatives who immigrated (in one form or another) to the USA. the last I read, immigration was getting much tougher at the border of Arizona where many flood in illegally. also, keep in mind, many of these immigrants take the jobs many naturally born citizens refuse to take. where I live (Oregon), we have a large amount of immigrants who do the farm work that others are "too good" to do. that food from that farm makes it to my table, so do I have a right to complain? as far as immigration being hard, most of those applying for citizenship have to take a very strict test, one most naturally born citizens cannot pass.

No no, i must contest that. The jobs illegals take in California that are supposedly "un-doable by your average american" are in fact, not undoable at all. These same jobs exist in other parts of the nation nowhere near Mexico and they are done and they are done well and without complaints. And as far as the citizenship test goes, i actually have a friend at my university who was born in Mexico and became a citizen and she laughed at how easy the test was (and she was at the most, 14 when she got her citizenship). She actually told me this for the first time yesterday... what a coincadence.

 

[plover]

You miss the point: An adult immigrant who is illiterate (Mexico's literacy is 92%) is not likely to learn to read any language once in the US. And a child immigrant (or citizen by birth) who doesn't speak English in the home is more likely to not learn to read any language than one who does. The US puts a lot of effort into English as a second language education, but its not easy: an American 1st grader is learning to read while an immgrant has to learn to speak before he/she can learn to read. Its an uphill climb.

Yeah, I expect you're right on this. I was thinking about things from a different angle.

 

[Shadow]

The name of this topic alone... the anti-american tendencies of this political forum are too great. That's why I stopped posting here. That and the friend to you in me whom I'm sure many remember...LogicalAtheist.


Edit: BTW Russ, good to see you. Congrats on your...er...mentorship.

 

[Evo]

LogicalAtheist, why does that name sound familiar?

 

[Shadow]

Heheh, he was banned from PF I think, but since he came it was not the same. It kinda ruined part of the "PF experience" and he really disliked me. A lot. There was quite a fuss about it too.

 

[cronxeh]

The name of this topic alone... the anti-american tendencies of this political forum are too great.

I think you are confusing "anti-american tendencies" with "hey, there are things that suck in this country - what can we do to make it better". There arent that many people who can actually make this country better, but among them are scientists and engineers, and their opinions ought to be valued, for the simple fact that they've designed and helped build most of this country's strenght. It wasnt with the intent to enslave the people and get rich quick - no sir - it was with the intent to make things bette, and to solve some puzzling questions.

There have been many politicians and other people who seem to work in exactly opposite direction. Whenever one group builds something good - another group seems to find a destructive way of using the thing, and the rest of the population suffers. Sometimes this lead to an increased competition, and to more advanced design (because of hackers, the operating systems had to evolve, because of drunken drivers we had to get side and front air bags, etc)

We keep coming back here because there are still people in poverty, still unanswered questions, and generally injustice going on around the world as well as in our backyard. I may not be speaking for everybody, but these things are mainly fixable, with some exceptions to mentally challenged individuals who kill for other reasons. But even those problems have a cure. So however way you look at it - its not the politicians and lawyers that make the policy for the people - its the scientists and engineers. Once you come up with something good, it enters the mainstream, and the politics is forces to accept and adapt to it if they want to stay in power. And they love the power. To sit in a nice room all day long debating about bills and whatnot - that not a hard job - id hardly even call that a job. And do you know how much those congressmen make? Their health benefits? You won't know because most of that stuff is classified. I want to know why do we spend so much tax money on such redudant workforce that takes so long to pass any law, and most of these laws are incomplete and get redrafted by later Congress.

 

[Kerrie]

No no, i must contest that. The jobs illegals take in California that are supposedly "un-doable by your average american" are in fact, not undoable at all. These same jobs exist in other parts of the nation nowhere near Mexico and they are done and they are done well and without complaints. And as far as the citizenship test goes, i actually have a friend at my university who was born in Mexico and became a citizen and she laughed at how easy the test was (and she was at the most, 14 when she got her citizenship). She actually told me this for the first time yesterday... what a coincadence.

you misunderstood my context...i realize these jobs are very doable. as i stated before, these jobs are very necessary for everyone living in the United States. American's (in general) are desiring the job with the least amount of work with the most amount of pay.

as for the citizenship test, those who have a basic high school education can pass, but i should have stated that i had once read many americans are unable to pass it. kudos to your friend who did it the right way, yet there are still many illegals who come here, have a child and then become citizens. i don't think this is right, but it is in the constitution. you have many illegals taking huge advantage of this. my relatives worked for their citizenship, why can't others?

 

[Evo]

And as far as the citizenship test goes, i actually have a friend at my university who was born in Mexico and became a citizen and she laughed at how easy the test was (and she was at the most, 14 when she got her citizenship). She actually told me this for the first time yesterday... what a coincadence.

She could not have taken the Naturalization test because you have to be at least 18 years old to take the test to become a Naturalized US citizen.

 

[loseyourname]

I think you are confusing "anti-american tendencies" with "hey, there are things that suck in this country - what can we do to make it better".

If you don't see any anti-American sentiment on this board, you aren't looking. There are plenty of people that are only asking for positive changes. There are also plenty of people that are here simply to blame the US for all of the world's problems and proclaim that vast superiority of Europe, Canada, or wherever they happen to live. Sometimes they'll post completely incoherent yelling and insults - these are likely teenagers. Others will simply post highly misleading editorials, such as these, designed to build the impression that the US way of life just isn't cutting it relative to other ways of life.

We keep coming back here because there are still people in poverty, still unanswered questions, and generally injustice going on around the world as well as in our backyard. I may not be speaking for everybody, but these things are mainly fixable, with some exceptions to mentally challenged individuals who kill for other reasons.

I remember reading somewhere that there have been 23 years in all of human history in which there is no indication that a war was being fought. The cultural determinists that told us in the first half of the last century that violence is an artifact of an arbitrary cultural choice have been proven dead wrong, though I've seen their false conclusions and misleading studies continuing to be taught by faculties that want to believe that western civilization is the sole source of the world's ills. Human violence, warfare, and male aggression in general, have been shown to be biologically innate, built into us by millions of years of primate evolution. That isn't to say that it can't be culturally minimized, but nothing short of altering our biology is ever going to remove the tendency that humans have to kill and otherwise exert power over each other.

As to your comment about poverty, do you really think it possible that someday there will be no poverty? I wonder if you've ever seriously thought this through, or just assumed that all problems could be solved through technology. There might be more to this than you know. Again, I'm not saying that poverty has to remain at the level it is at, but the only example we've ever seen of societies without poverty are hunter-gatherers and the Soviet Union. Neither of their forms of society are particularly viable options at this point.

To sit in a nice room all day long debating about bills and whatnot - that not a hard job - id hardly even call that a job.

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. You don't think that congressmen have a difficult job? There's a lot more to it than the floor proceedings you see on C-Span, you know.

And do you know how much those congressmen make? Their health benefits? You won't know because most of that stuff is classified.

Senators make $162,100 per year. I don't have any clue what made you think that information was classified. You can find the yearly salaries of US senators going all the way back to 1789 (they made $6 per day then) right http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/senate_salaries.htm at the US senate official website. I am certain that you can find a similar site for US representatives. Many of these are men that made far more in their civilian lives. This is the case with most elected and appointed officials. Heck, I was watching a documentary on everyone's favorite whipping boy from Vietnam, Robert McNamara, who gave up a job as president of Ford Motors, which I believe carried a yearly salary of around $8 million, plus huge stock options, to be Secretary of Defense and make well under 6 figures.