Why Does the First Order Term in QED Scattering Matrix Give No Contribution?

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    First order Qed Term
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the first order term in the perturbation expansion of the scattering matrix in Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) and why it yields no contribution for all possible initial and final states. Participants explore the implications of energy-momentum conservation in relation to real photons and electrons.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the first order term in the scattering matrix does not contribute, suggesting it relates to energy-momentum conservation not being satisfied for real photons and electrons.
  • Another participant proposes specific processes (e.g., an electron emitting or absorbing a photon, or a photon converting into an electron-positron pair) to illustrate the issue, indicating that conservation laws must be applied.
  • Participants emphasize the need to write down conservation laws and on-shell conditions for electrons and photons to analyze the impossibility of these processes occurring.
  • A later reply suggests using four-momentum conservation as an alternative method to demonstrate the contradictions arising from these processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that energy-momentum conservation plays a crucial role in understanding the lack of contribution from the first order term, but the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific implications and interpretations of these conservation laws.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific assumptions about the states involved and the unresolved mathematical steps in applying conservation laws to the proposed processes.

QuantumDevil
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Can some explain me why first order term in perturbation expansion of scattering matrix gives no contribution for every possible IN and OUT states? It is said that this is connected with the fact that condition of energy-momentum conservation cannot be satisfied for real photons and electrons. For me it isn't so obvious :(
 

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You mean, why can't a (free) electron just suddenly spit out a photon giving a process: e\rightarrow e\gamma? Or why can't a (free) electron just suddenly absorb a (free) photon to become a new electron: e\gamma\rightarrow e? Or why can't a (free) photon suddenly turn into a (free) electron-positron pair: \gamma\rightarrow e^+e^-?

Choose any of these processes. Now write down the conservation law for energy and momentum (so there are 4 equations in all). Also write down the on-shell conditions for the electron (E_e^2-\vec{p}_e\cdot\vec{p}_e=m_e^2) and the photon (E_\gamma^2-\vec{p}_\gamma\cdot\vec{p}_\gamma=0), where I have set c=1 for simplicity. Using these equations, solve for E_e,\vec{p}_e,E_\gamma,\vec{p}_\gamma.Can't do it, can you?! :wink:
 
blechman said:
You mean, why can't a (free) electron just suddenly spit out a photon giving a process: e\rightarrow e\gamma? Or why can't a (free) electron just suddenly absorb a (free) photon to become a new electron: e\gamma\rightarrow e? Or why can't a (free) photon suddenly turn into a (free) electron-positron pair: \gamma\rightarrow e^+e^-?

Choose any of these processes. Now write down the conservation law for energy and momentum (so there are 4 equations in all). Also write down the on-shell conditions for the electron (E_e^2-\vec{p}_e\cdot\vec{p}_e=m_e^2) and the photon (E_\gamma^2-\vec{p}_\gamma\cdot\vec{p}_\gamma=0), where I have set c=1 for simplicity. Using these equations, solve for E_e,\vec{p}_e,E_\gamma,\vec{p}_\gamma.


Can't do it, can you?! :wink:


To the OP: A second way but equivalent is to use four-momentum conservation if you are at ease with this. Isolate the four-momentum of one of the photons and square both sides. After a little algebra it will be clear that the two sides can't be equal.
 
nrqed said:
To the OP: A second way but equivalent is to use four-momentum conservation if you are at ease with this. Isolate the four-momentum of one of the photons and square both sides. After a little algebra it will be clear that the two sides can't be equal.

Indeed this leads to contradiction
 
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