Why Does the Supremum Definition Make Sense for Infinite Decimal Expansions?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical understanding of infinite decimal expansions and the justification for using the supremum definition in this context. Participants explore the implications of the monotone convergence theorem and the properties of sequences of partial sums related to infinite series.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that an infinite decimal expansion can be expressed as a sum of terms divided by powers of ten, leading to a supremum definition.
  • Another participant notes that since each term in the sequence of partial sums is positive, the sequence is increasing, and thus the supremum and limit are equal.
  • Several participants reference the monotone convergence theorem, discussing its relevance to the behavior of the sequence of partial sums and the conditions under which it converges.
  • There is a question raised about proving that the sequence of partial sums is bounded, with one participant suggesting it is less than a specific value.
  • Another participant attempts to clarify why the sum of the terms is less than a certain threshold, providing reasoning based on the properties of the digits in the decimal expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of the monotone convergence theorem and the increasing nature of the sequence of partial sums. However, there is ongoing uncertainty regarding the boundedness of the sequence and the specific implications of the supremum definition.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the nature of the digits in the decimal expansion and their contributions to the sums are not fully explored. The discussion also reflects a dependency on definitions related to convergence and boundedness, which remain unresolved.

kingwinner
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"An infinite decimal expansion has the following meaning:
0.a1 a2 a3 a4... =

∑ ak / 10k =
k=1
sup{∑ ak / 10k : n E N}
where ∑ is the sum from k=1 to k=n."
======================================

Why is the second equality (about the supremum) true? (or why does it make sense?)

Thanks.
 
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Here each a_k is positive, so the sequence of partial sums is increasing, and its supremum and limit are equal.
 
This is a consequence of the monotone convergence theorem, which states that if we have a monotonically increasing sequence of numbers (i.e. a sequence (a_n) for which a_k \leq a_{k+1} for all k, then the sequence has a finite limit if and only if the sequence is bounded.

Remember an infinite series is nothing more than a limit of partial sums and these partial sums can be treated as a sequence. In this case, the partial sums are

s_n = \sum_{k=1}^{n} \frac{a_k}{10^k}.

The limit \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} s_n[/tex] if it exists, is denoted \sum_{k=1}^{\infty} \frac{a_k}{10^k}.<br /> <br /> Now clearly (s_n) is monotonically increasing (Why?). If it is unbounded, then the equality we are seeking is trivial. If the sequence is bounded, the monotone convergence theorem tells us that the sequence not only has a limit, but in fact this limit is the least upper bound of the terms of the sequence, which is exactly what we want. <br /> <br /> Check out<br /> <br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotone_convergence_theorem" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotone_convergence_theorem</a><br /> <br /> for more info.
 
snipez90 said:
This is a consequence of the monotone convergence theorem, which states that if we have a monotonically increasing sequence of numbers (i.e. a sequence (a_n) for which a_k \leq a_{k+1} for all k, then the sequence has a finite limit if and only if the sequence is bounded.

Remember an infinite series is nothing more than a limit of partial sums and these partial sums can be treated as a sequence. In this case, the partial sums are

s_n = \sum_{k=1}^{n} \frac{a_k}{10^k}.

The limit \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} s_n[/tex] if it exists, is denoted \sum_{k=1}^{\infty} \frac{a_k}{10^k}.<br /> <br /> Now clearly (s_n) is monotonically increasing (Why?). If it is unbounded, then the equality we are seeking is trivial. If the sequence is bounded, the monotone convergence theorem tells us that the sequence not only has a limit, but in fact this limit is the least upper bound of the terms of the sequence, which is exactly what we want. <br /> <br /> Check out<br /> <br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotone_convergence_theorem" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotone_convergence_theorem</a><br /> <br /> for more info.
<br /> <br /> The theorem in my textbook is as follows:<br /> if a_n is nondecreasing and bounded, then lim a_n converges to sup a_n.<br /> <br /> But in our case, I can see that s_n is nondecreasing, but how can we prove that s_n = <br /> n<br /> ∑ a<sub>k</sub> / 10<sup>k</sup> <br /> k=1<br /> is bounded?<br /> <br /> Thanks!
 
kingwinner said:
The theorem in my textbook is as follows:
if a_n is nondecreasing and bounded, then lim a_n converges to sup a_n.

But in our case, I can see that s_n is nondecreasing, but how can we prove that s_n =
n
∑ ak / 10k
k=1
is bounded?

Thanks!
It is less than (a_1+1)/10.
 
HallsofIvy said:
It is less than (a_1+1)/10.

Why?? (this is not so obvious to me...)
 
because .0a_2a_3a_4... &lt; .1.

Each digit is less than 10 so a_210^{-2}\le .09, a_310^{-3}\le .009, etc.

a_2 10^{-2}+ a_3 10^{-3}+ ...\le .09+ .009+ ...&lt; .1.
 

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