Why Has Discussing Income Always Been Taboo?

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm unemployed just now, so I can tell you my income in a round figure.

 

[caffenta]

I'm unemployed just now, so I can tell you my income in a round figure.

Nooo! Some other unemployed guy may find out that he makes no more than you and he'll think "What?? Jimmy makes as much as me? But I'm way better than Jimmy!"

 

[Pythagorean]

fear that people below your income level will take advantage of you and people above your income level will judge you.

 

[D H]

I was at a job that I did not particularly care for when I found out that the guy that was just hired was making more than me even though I had been there for nearly three years. It showed me how little my employers valued me and gave me more reason to look for another job.

This is probably a good reason TO talk about income with coworkers. If I found out I was making significantly less than one of my coworkers doing the same job at the same quality, I'd have a great case to go to my manager for a raise. And even if I don't get the raise, I'd have a better idea of how much my job is worth as I look for a new one.

Note that both of the above posts were about coworkers who had greater salaries than the posters. If TheStatutoryApe or Jack21222 had found that they were paid more than their coworkers the line of thinking would have stopped at that point. What are you going to do, go to your boss and demand a pay cut?

There are plenty of reasons your coworker (call him "Joe") might have a salary greater than yours. The coworking might be better than you at negotiating salary. For those fairly fresh out of school, Joe might have went to a more prestigious school than you did, did more prestigious research, had a more prestigious GPA, or even done something as inconsequential as going to the boss' alma mater.

For people who have been working a while, past salary is a part of the negotiation process. Suppose Joe and you are working in the Research Triangle area of North Carolina. Joe moved there from California while you came from Texas. Joe's salary is heftier than yours simply because his California salary was a lot more than your Texas salary. While you received a huge increase in moving to North Carolina, Joe received nothing. He might well have been told during salary negotiations that they would match his current salary, but don't count on pay increases for a few years until your salary comes more into line with others.

Salary also depends on the competitiveness of the market when you were hired. If Joe was hired at a time when demand outstripped supply he had the opportunity to negotiate a very nice pay package. Look at it this way: Suppose supply outstrips demand and your employer can now hire people with a reduced salary. Your employer will take advantage of this, but they typically will not take advantage of it to the extent that they tell their employees they are giving everyone a 10% pay cut because they can get away with it.

 

[nismaratwork]

fear that people below your income level will take advantage of you and people above your income level will judge you.

BINGO

@D H: I was in that situation as a kid (14), working a summer job. What good would have come about by telling a co-worker that I was getting paid more? When I went into the managerial end, it was no longer an issue, but until then people might have quit... not gotten a raise.

It's not fun, but it's also just... courtesy. If I were in a culture where knowing the monetary value of something, and income was expected, I would conform to that cultural norml.

 

[Jack21222]

You have no negotiating power after you've been hired. The only time you can negotiate is during the hiring process.

I've been working for 10 years now, and I can say with confidence that you're completely wrong about this.

If TheStatutoryApe or Jack21222 had found that they were paid more than their coworkers the line of thinking would have stopped at that point. What are you going to do, go to your boss and demand a pay cut?

No, but I'd agree with my coworker's decision to ask for a pay raise.

 

[caffenta]

It's not fun, but it's also just... courtesy. If I were in a culture where knowing the monetary value of something, and income was expected, I would conform to that cultural norml.

I'm not sure I really follow. Should everyone in a similar position be paid the same, just because their position has the same name? That really only works for lower-level unskilled positions. What about people who are just better at what they do? Say you find out Joe makes the same as you. But Joe does nothing all day, and anything he does do just causes more trouble for everyone else. Wouldn't you find it “unfair” to be paid the same? And what have you gained from the knowledge? Are you going to go to your manager saying "Joe makes as much as me, I'm better than Joe, I want to make more than Joe."

In addition to all the examples that D H listed, there is also the simple fact that an employer might pay someone more because he/she is simply more valuable/better.

No, but I'd agree with my coworker's decision to ask for a pay raise.

But that's his business, not yours, just like income. He doesn't need your approval to try and ask for a raise.

Anyway, you can shout your income day-in day-out from the clock tower if you want. I'll keep mine to myself. I don't even care if Jim, two cubicles over, makes more than I do. Good for him.

 

[Jack21222]

But that's his business, not yours, just like income. He doesn't need your approval to try and ask for a raise.

Who ever said my hypothetical coworker would need my approval to try and ask for a raise? Do you usually spend your Friday nights attacking straw men, or is tonight special?

 

[Pengwuino]

Everyone has made good points about the obvious reasons why we don't talk about income, but there is more to it in my opinion. Did people still feel inadequate 100 years ago if their neighbor made more than they did? Only recently could you so freely throw around money in such flashy fashions like big cars, electronic accessories, etc.

Also, sure it isn't advisable to tell your co-worker what you make, but what about someone in a completely different line of work? who really cares?

 

[mugaliens]

Probably been said, but if you didn't sign a salary nondisclosure agreement, everyone would have leverage against everyone else at the annual salary negotiating table, and the company, not to mention all it's employees, would not be able to remain competitive, would go out of business, and all employees would no longer have their jobs.

Remaining "shhh..." is a good thing! For everyone.

 

[Jack21222]

Probably been said, but if you didn't sign a salary nondisclosure agreement, everyone would have leverage against everyone else at the annual salary negotiating table, and the company, not to mention all it's employees, would not be able to remain competitive, would go out of business, and all employees would no longer have their jobs.

Remaining "shhh..." is a good thing! For everyone.

Do you have anything to back up that wild guessing? Perhaps a list of all of the companies that went out of business because they lacked a "salary nondisclosure agreement?"

 

[Oerg]

Why is it that people get paid differently for doing the same job? Everyone doing the same job should get paid the same imo, and a year end performance bonus given to those who have performed well+promotions.

 

[caffenta]

Everyone has made good points about the obvious reasons why we don't talk about income, but there is more to it in my opinion. Did people still feel inadequate 100 years ago if their neighbor made more than they did? Only recently could you so freely throw around money in such flashy fashions like big cars, electronic accessories, etc.

I don't know about 100 years ago. I wasn't alive then, but I'm guessing it wasn't that different from today. They may have flashed different things, but people's irrational behaviors haven't changed, I think.

Do you or would you feel inadequate today if your neighbor made more than you? I don't. It's their money/life. Whatever floats their boat. I do my thing, they do theirs, we have friendly chats from time to time. I couldn't care less about their financials as long as they are happy. Another thing to note is that what people flash around is not necessarily tied to their income. Most people live on credit, at least in the US.

Also, sure it isn't advisable to tell your co-worker what you make, but what about someone in a completely different line of work? who really cares?

I don't know, really. People can have really strange reactions when it comes to money. And like you said, who cares?

 

[Femme_physics]

No point at beating around the bush, I always tell people how much I make if they ask or even hint they want to know. I don't feel lesser or greater... I've been down and I've been up myself so many times, it can happen to anyone. It's easy to flip...

 

[caffenta]

No point at beating around the bush, I always make people how much I make if they ask or even hint they want to know. I don't feel lesser or greater... I've been down and I've been up myself so many times, it can happen to anyone. It's easy to flip...

[scratches head]

So... I want to know. Make me!

EDIT: re edit: ah, no fair... Now, my joke doesn't work anymore.

 

[Femme_physics]

Heh, typo... cut me some slack I just woke up!

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm not sure I really follow. Should everyone in a similar position be paid the same, just because their position has the same name? That really only works for lower-level unskilled positions. What about people who are just better at what they do? Say you find out Joe makes the same as you. But Joe does nothing all day, and anything he does do just causes more trouble for everyone else. Wouldn't you find it “unfair” to be paid the same? And what have you gained from the knowledge? Are you going to go to your manager saying "Joe makes as much as me, I'm better than Joe, I want to make more than Joe."

In addition to all the examples that D H listed, there is also the simple fact that an employer might pay someone more because he/she is simply more valuable/better.

But that's his business, not yours, just like income. He doesn't need your approval to try and ask for a raise.

Anyway, you can shout your income day-in day-out from the clock tower if you want. I'll keep mine to myself. I don't even care if Jim, two cubicles over, makes more than I do. Good for him.

I'm avoiding needless conflict, and hurt feelings that would arise regardless of right and wrong... that's what courtesy is.

 

[caffenta]

I'm avoiding needless conflict, and hurt feelings that would arise regardless of right and wrong... that's what courtesy is.

Ah, I see. I had misinterpreted. I thought you had meant that it was the employer's duty to pay evenly, as a courtesy to the employees. My bad.

 

[nismaratwork]

Ah, I see. I had misinterpreted. I thought you had meant that it was the employer's duty to pay evenly, as a courtesy to the employees. My bad.

The internet was made for miscommunication.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Note that both of the above posts were about coworkers who had greater salaries than the posters. If TheStatutoryApe or Jack21222 had found that they were paid more than their coworkers the line of thinking would have stopped at that point. What are you going to do, go to your boss and demand a pay cut?

I believe that the point of my post was that one may get an idea of how their employer values them. I do not see how that point would be at all diminished by someone making more than their coworker. It may not lead to the same end but the knowledge still serves the same purpose.

 

[WatermelonPig]

"I want to be a billionaire . . . "

 

[caffenta]

"I want to be a billionaire . . . "

Billionaire is so yesterday.

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Zimbabwe_%24100_trillion_2009_Obverse.jpg

 

[nismaratwork]

Billionaire is so yesterday.

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Zimbabwe_%24100_trillion_2009_Obverse.jpg[/QUOTE]

Ahhh Zimbabwe... the worker's paradise.


How'd those land grabs go Mugabe?


A good example of a country self-destructing.

 

[OmCheeto]

"I want to be a billionaire . . . "

I'll sell you my 2 billion deutsche mark uncanceled postage stamp for 37 cents.

screeeeeeeech!

Oh my. I should start checking my collection again.
"[URL
20 billion deutsche markk postage stamp on sale for $120.[/URL]



Offer rescinded until further notice...



hmmm...

Actually. If it cost 2 billion deutsche marks to mail a letter in 1923, what is $120 worth in 1923 Deutsch marks?

Ha!

I don't need to check my mailbox. I'm pretty sure I'm already a trillionaire.