Why is the average moment of a dipole zero?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter MathematicalPhysicist
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Dipole
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the average moment of a dipole in the context of an electron orbiting a nucleus, specifically within the framework of the Bohr model of the hydrogen atom. Participants explore the implications of the dipole's vector nature and its average value over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the average dipole moment over time is zero, suggesting that since the dipole moment is constant (p = eR), the average should equal eR.
  • Another participant points out that the dipole is a vector, implying that its direction must be considered in the analysis.
  • A participant asserts that the vectors cancel each other out over the entire circular motion of the electron, leading to a zero average dipole moment.
  • A later reply confirms that while the atom has an instantaneous dipole moment, it does not have a permanent dipole moment.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the average dipole moment, with some asserting that the vectors cancel out leading to a zero average, while others question this conclusion based on the dipole's constant value. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion does not fully address the assumptions regarding the nature of the dipole moment and its dependence on the electron's motion and position. There are also unresolved mathematical considerations regarding the integration over time.

MathematicalPhysicist
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Messages
4,662
Reaction score
372
let's say we have an electron circling the nucleus (like the bohr's hydrogen atom), i don't understand why the average wrt to time of the moment of the diople is zero?
we have this equation: [tex]\frac{\int_{0}^{T}pdt}{T}[/tex]
well obviously the diople, p, is constant throughout the elctron's motion, and it ahs the value p=eR where e is the electro's charge and R is the radius of motion, so unless I am missing something the average should be eR, so why am i wrong here?

thanks in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The dipole is a vector.
 
i know that it's defined as a vector which its direction is along the radius, does it mean that on the whole circle the vectors cancel each other, obviously they do.
thanks.
 
loop quantum gravity said:
i know that it's defined as a vector which its direction is along the radius, does it mean that on the whole circle the vectors cancel each other, obviously they do.
thanks.

Yes. The atom has an instantaneous, but not a permanent dipole.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
2K