News Why is the US/UK at war with Iraq?

[Alias]

Originally posted by damgo
Hmmm, I don't kwow, that's a really tough one... would you say that the world would be worse-off if Kim Jong Il had WMDs, or if the Care Bears did? :)

Well Kim Jong Il's got'em. But I'll be damned if I let those evil Care Bears upset the balance of power! Death to the butal dictator Care Bears! I think I'll issue a fahtwah.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

De-cide

Originally posted by Alais

(snip)I think I'll issue a fahtwah.(snip)

Alais, you can do it in the name of the Sunni's,(the former ruling class of Iraq) as they are now the last people defending Baghdad, and to 'Win the War', all George needs to do, is, "Kill them All".

Isn't there another name for that?

BTW Alais, the solution(s) are/was/were, to end the war, now, bring the Boys back home where they are safe, sign a Peace Treaty with the people that are left whom have not yet been slain/murdered.

That I had suggested, well before, this war started.

Blessed are the Peace Makers....J.C.

 

[Alias]

I disagree with your solution, although I'm quite happy you stated it. I wish we could get that much from Zero.

I think a better solution would be to continue to make war on all of those that oppose the removal of Saddam's regime. Make no mistake, they know what they are in for, and can surrender at any time. If they continue to fight, their deaths will be their own doing.

Of course, for those being forced to fight, I pray for them.

 

[Zero]

Hmmm...another personal attack, Alias?

Certainly, murdering anyone who might ever interfere with U.S interests is a brilliant strategy...get that from a G.I. Joe comic book?

 

[Alias]

Originally posted by Zero
Hmmm...another personal attack, Alias?

No, just some playful ribbing. I miss you in this thread. It's my pathetic attempt to get your attention.

Certainly, murdering anyone who might ever interfere with U.S interests is a brilliant strategy...get that from a G.I. Joe comic book?

That's not what I said, or meant, and you know it. I think you actually kind of like me. I think you've got this love/hate thing going for me, no?

Seriously, don't you think that ultimately, when the dust settles, the Iraqi people will be better off running their own country?

And why is it you can't see my compassion, even when I lay it out right in front of you? Please re-read my last post.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Alias
I disagree with your solution, although I'm quite happy you stated it. I wish we could get that much from Zero.

I think a better solution would be to continue to make war on all of those that oppose the removal of Saddam's regime. Make no mistake, they know what they are in for, and can surrender at any time. If they continue to fight, their deaths will be their own doing.

Of course, for those being forced to fight, I pray for them.

Must admit alias, you are good with that party line

 

[Alias]

um..thank you?

 

[Werdatothewise]

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq:

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two-week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper/TV is putting out.)

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.

* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever

* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

* An interim constitution has been signed.

* Girls are allowed to attend school.

* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about, but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion

 

[Werdatothewise]

Alais, you can do it in the name of the Sunni's,(the former ruling class of Iraq) as they are now the last people defending Baghdad, and to 'Win the War', all George needs to do, is, "Kill them All".

Isn't there another name for that?

BTW Alais, the solution(s) are/was/were, to end the war, now, bring the Boys back home where they are safe, sign a Peace Treaty with the people that are left whom have not yet been slain/murdered.

That I had suggested, well before, this war started.

Blessed are the Peace Makers....J.C.

Who remembers the days of the VIETNAM WAR?

 

[pelastration]

Who remembers the days of the VIETNAM WAR?

John Kerry? Sure.
GW Bush: I doubt.

 

[Adam]

IRAQ: BEFORE AND AFTER SANCTIONS

Hospital beds:
Before sanctions: 1.9/100
After sanctions: 1.4/100

Life expectancy:
Before sanctions: 65 years
After sanctions: 59 years

Infant mortality:
Before sanctions: 80/1000
After sanctions: 104/1000

Adult literacy rate:
Before sanctions: 89%
After sanctions: 58%

Student enrollment:
Before sanctions:
Primary School: 99%
Secondary School: 47%
Number of School Buildings: 9460
After sanctions:
Primary School: 80%
Secondary School: 31%
Number of School Buildings: 7572

Education status:
Before sanctions: Public education was free and compulsory at all levels.
After sanctions: UNICEF estimated that only 10% of Iraq's needs for education could be met by the Oil for Food Programme.

Calory intake:
Before sanctions: 3400 calories per day (The highest in the region at that time)
Two thirds of Iraq's food was imported.
After sanctions: 2268 calories per day
94% of the FAO recommended minimum requirement

Undernourishment:
Before sanctions: 4%
After sanctions: 27%

Access to safe water:
Before sanctions:
Urban: 100%
Rural: 72%
After sanctions:
Urban: 85%
Rural: 48%

Access to sanitation:
Before sanctions:
Urban: 96%
Rural: 18%
After sanctions:
Urban: 79%
Rural: 31%

Electricity

Production:
Before sanctions: Unknown
After sanctions: KWh27.3 billion

Consumption
Before sanctions: Unknown
After sanctions: KWh25.389 billion

Telephone lines in use:
Before sanctions: 462,000
After sanctions: 675,000

Internet service provider
Before sanctions: Unknown
After sanctions: One ISP for 12,500 users

Television & radio
Before sanctions: Unknown
After sanctions: 13 TV broadcast stations, 3 radio stations

(Sources: FAO/UNESCO/WHO/World Bank Data.)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/34695329-3D30-406E-BFDE-3E44899B7730.htm

 

[studentx]

So Adam, you agree that this war brought forth some good: the end of sanctions which crippled the country?

 

[kyleb]

that is like saying the hurricane brought some good becuase it ended the drought.

 

[member 5645]

that is like saying the hurricane brought some good becuase it ended the drought.

If the hurricane costs less lives than the indefinite drought, then yes it did some good.

 

[Adam]

So Adam, you agree that this war brought forth some good: the end of sanctions which crippled the country?

1) X causes all sorts of problems through sanctions and such, for Y.
2) X invades Y, destroys all basic infrastructure, kills lots of people, and ends those sanctions.
3) Some idiot thinks X's invasion is good because the sanctions (caused by X) are over.

I have recommended to you before that you should simply stay out of these conversations.

 

[studentx]

1) X causes all sorts of problems through sanctions and such, for Y.
2) X invades Y, destroys all basic infrastructure, kills lots of people, and ends those sanctions.
3) Some idiot thinks X's invasion is good because the sanctions (caused by X) are over.

I have recommended to you before that you should simply stay out of these conversations.

I contemplated your recommendations but i had to put them aside :zzz: When the truth gets assaulted its my duty to protect it.
X imposes the sanctions and X invades Iraq? Last time i checked, the UN didnt invade Iraq.

Do you dispute the fact that sanctions would not have been lifted while Saddam was in power?

 

[Pyrovus]

To say that the war was good because it ended the sanctions is just like saying that if the Holocaust had been 100% successful it would have been good because it would have stopped the Nazis from persecuting the Jews.

 

[studentx]

strawman Pyrovus

 

[Adam]

The campaign against Iraq was always driven by the USA.

And no, Pyrovus's analogy was not a straw man argument.

 

[studentx]

the jews did nothing to deserve persecution, had no leader that led them to hell. Saddam killed thousands of kuweitis, tens of thousands of Kurds, hundreds of thousands of iranians and millions of iraqis. Once again Adam i have made recommendations not to attack the truth, or i will have to protect it.

 

[Adam]

the jews did nothing to deserve persecution, had no leader that led them to hell. Saddam killed thousands of kuweitis, tens of thousands of Kurds, hundreds of thousands of iranians and millions of iraqis. Once again Adam i have made recommendations not to attack the truth, or i will have to protect it.

Really? Wow. How interesting. Perhaps you could tell us what you base these assertions on?

 

[studentx]

alright, which assertions do i need to clarify for you !

 

[amp]

Where did Saddam get the weapons and materials to kill all those people? Which administrations were in charge? What were their policies regarding Saddam? (while supplying WMD and techonolgy for building WMD.)

 

[studentx]

America, Russia, France, Germany, China.
Now, we are talking about the strawman Amp.
American troops are not nazis persecuting Iraqis and the invasion of Iraq was not the holocaust. If you have any love for the truth you should crush this strawman

 

[Adam]

Please show me on what you base these:
- tens of thousands of Kurds,
- hundreds of thousands of iranians
- millions of iraqis.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

What an awesome thread, I had thought that it was dead and buried (along with those er... civilians). This thread is a magnificent time capsule of the tension and uncertainty permeating the intellectual atmosphere of the war. Thanks, Lifegazer, for starting this thread.
______________________
I have heard the argument stated axiomatically: A = B, B = C, therefore A = C; for example, going to war = getting Saddam, getting Saddam = good, therefore going to war = good (Ed Gillespie, Charlie Rose). Sure, it's a quick rationalization for the Charlie Rose show, but it leaves out some important facts, for example, all the costs associated with A, all the ramifications (besides C) of B, and the fact that even though we;ve arrived at C, there will be no withdrawal, and no forseeable end to the occupation of Iraq. No end to the dozen or more US soldiers killed every week. No end to the hundred or more Iraqi civilians and fighters killed every week. When will Iraqi insurgents stop bombing Iraqi troops and police?
Rush Limbaugh said today "war in the Middle East is a fabulous idea, as long as I don't have to fight in it."
What do you think he meant by that?
Ann Coulter calls it a "fantastic success."
I wonder if she said that at any of the funerals.

 

[studentx]

http://hnn.us/articles/862.html
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/03/27/52394-ap.html

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Iranian leaders have denounced the military strike as "satanic" and "a threat to humanity." They fear being drawn into the conflict after their own eight-year war with Iraq, which killed an estimated 1 million people on both sides.

Now i haven't even mentioned the Madan (marsh people).

 

[Adam]

Read and enjoy.

A War Crime or an Act of War?

It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent � that is, a cyanide-based gas � which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.

I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.

In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq.

We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region.

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change.

Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that probably could not be challenged for decades � not solely by controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American companies.

All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting, one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve; in its present debilitated condition � thanks to United Nations sanctions � Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.

Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.

Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds, particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes Washington supports?
(Stephen C. Pelletiere, The New York Times, January 31, 2003)

Stephen C. Pelletiere is author of "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf."

 

[Adam]

Now what about the "millions of Iraqis"?

 

[studentx]

Well the war with Iran cost at least a million Iraqi lifes. Then there's the invasion of Kuwait and the following war with the coalition, there's the Kurds , the marsh ppl and who not! Also let's not forget sanctions, a direct result of Saddams actions. I am sure i forgot many other people as well, i apologize to them.
Btw, survivors of Halabja witnessed iraqi planes dropping the gas. When the Kurds themselves say it was the Iraqis, who are we to argue with them? Even if Halabja isn't Saddams crime, there are 2000 other villages that are!