Why such strange units of measure?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of specific units of measure in astronomy and cosmology, particularly the Distance Modulus, billion light-years (Bly), mega parsecs (Mpc), and the concept of temperature in relation to cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation. Participants explore the implications and reasoning behind these choices, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why astronomers prefer the Distance Modulus over Bly or Mpc, suggesting that its logarithmic nature distorts relative distances.
  • Others argue that the logarithmic scale is beneficial for handling vast ranges of distance in astronomy, although it may not always correspond to actual distances due to factors like extinction corrections.
  • There is a concern expressed about the lack of tables that correlate redshift (z) with metric distances, despite seeing Hubble diagrams plotting z against Mpc.
  • Participants discuss the significance of temperature in relation to the CMB, with some suggesting that the time the radiation has been traveling is more crucial than the temperature itself.
  • One participant points out that the CMB's spectrum is based on blackbody radiation, which is inherently linked to temperature.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the fluctuations in temperature are more significant than the absolute temperature measurement.
  • There is a suggestion that using "microwave" while measuring temperature could lead to confusion regarding what is being measured, particularly in relation to energetic particles from the original plasma.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of using Distance Modulus versus Bly or Mpc, as well as the relevance of temperature in discussing the CMB. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that extreme distance measures are inherently inaccurate and that different types of distances (luminosity, angular diameter, comoving) can lead to confusion in discussions. There is also mention of the dependence on cosmological models for interpreting redshift and distance.

JArnold
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Why do astronomers and cosmologists prefer to use the Distance Modulus instead of -- rather than in addition to -- Bly (billion light-years) or Mpc (mega parsecs)? Being a LOG10 it distorts relative distances. You can find Bly plotted on a graph (but not specified), and even in studies comparing z with distances according to standard candles, you won't find tables listing z alongside metric distances.

Why do astronomers and cosmologists prefer to use "temperature" rather than redshift when discussing CMB (cosmic microwave background radiation)? Why not either call it "cosmic temperature background" or specify the length of the microwave? Space being a vacuum, it seems unnecessarily weird to talk of temperature.
 
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The fact that it's logarithmic is exactly why it's used; in astronomy, we are often talking about things on huge ranges of distance scales, so carrying around (or even saying) big units is ungainly. Also, from a technical standpoint, distance modulus doesn't always correspond to actual distance (in case we are discussing one that is uncorrected for extinction) and redshift doesn't always correspond to actual distance either (because strictly speaking, the distance inferred is based on how accurate our cosmological models are).

As for the CMB, the shape of the spectrum is that of blackbody radiation, and the spectrum for blackbody radiation is entirely dependent on the temperature of what's radiating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#Planck.27s_law_of_black-body_radiation
 
I can understand using both, and that all extreme distant measures are more or less inaccurate. But to go from distance modulus to Mly is only to go from 2 digits to 4 or 5, and though a LOG10 might reduce relative inaccuracies (only because it's a LOG10 reduction), to telescope relative distances is itself to impose an inaccuracy. What's especially frustrating to me is that I've seen Hubble diagrams that plot z against Mpc, I've never found a corresponding table that speicifies the data points.

Regarding the CMB, isn't what's most significant about it not the temperature of the source but how long it's been traveling? Doesn't it invite confusion to use the term "microwave" but measure it as a temperature? Doesn't it suggest that what's being measured is energetic particles, as-if remnants of the original plasma?
 
JArnold said:
I can understand using both, and that all extreme distant measures are more or less inaccurate. But to go from distance modulus to Mly is only to go from 2 digits to 4 or 5, and though a LOG10 might reduce relative inaccuracies (only because it's a LOG10 reduction), to telescope relative distances is itself to impose an inaccuracy. What's especially frustrating to me is that I've seen Hubble diagrams that plot z against Mpc, I've never found a corresponding table that speicifies the data points.

You can calculate the distances in Mpc quite straightforwardly if you know the value of Hubble parameter. You need to remember though, that this is the luminosity distance, which is different from angular diameter distance, which is different from comoving distance.


JArnold said:
Regarding the CMB, isn't what's most significant about it not the temperature of the source but how long it's been traveling? Doesn't it invite confusion to use the term "microwave" but measure it as a temperature? Doesn't it suggest that what's being measured is energetic particles, as-if remnants of the original plasma?

Well, it's not the absolute temperature which is interesting, but the fluctuations. At least I recall seeing redshift given more often than the absolute temperature.

The point kind of is that what is being measured is exactly the remnants of the original plasma. As the plasma was tightly coupled with photons, you see exactly (modulo the changes happening while photons travel through the universe) the temperature of the original plasma.
 

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