Why is there no distance-measure in the standard model?

In summary, Friedmann's equations, the foundation of modern cosmology, only account for average density and expansion rate, leaving out the effects of distance and clumping. This simplification leads to incorrect predictions and the need for the addition of mysterious entities like dark energy. The inclusion of distance and rate of clumping would complicate the model, but would likely result in more accurate predictions.
  • #1
Peter 727
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TL;DR Summary
When tackling most gravitational problems, one must include the distance between the objects doing the gravitating. Why is this measure not in the cosmological model?
The standard answer: “In GR, only average density matters.”

That is what Friedmann’s equations (1) say—mathematically—but he does not derive that conclusion. He starts with it.

Friedmann does not start with a messy, real-world model of the universe, one that has fractured into galaxy clusters, each gravitationally bound together, and collapsing locally against the backdrop of distant expansion. He does not show that the devil-in-the-details becomes an angel using General Relativity. He leaves out the details. He starts with a model of uniform density, wherein only average density matters. He does not show it.

Figure 3, below, shows why distance matters in a 4-body system. In A, the distance between 4 bodies of mass M is doubled, and the energy required to do so calculated. In B, the distance between 2 bodies of mass 2M is doubled, starting and ending with the same density as in A. It takes less energy to expand the clumpier gravitational system than the smoother one. The calculation is done for only 4 bodies, but the result is generic, and applies to all n-body systems: Clumping in a many-body system reduces the energy associated with expansion between clumps. As clouds of gas collapse to form stars and galaxies, the cosmic expansion, beyond these centers-of-collapse, involves less energy. Yet there is no accounting of this effect in the standard model. Why not?

In our experience, gravity is constant. Newton offered that it varies, in proportion to mass and inverse-distance-squared (2). Einstein added a third factor, velocity (3)...and some “new math.” Yet in Friedmann’s equations, the foundation of modern cosmology, gravity’s three measures—mass, distance and velocity—revert to just two: density and expansion rate. Mass and distance-between are rolled into a single parameter, density. Wait…wasn’t General Relativity supposed to make things more complicated, not less?

Example: Q. Comet-tails always point away from the sun, so the dust-motes are on expanding orbits. Does this expansion slow or accelerate?

A. Comet dust is driven into interstellar space by the solar wind. Its velocity depends on a number of factors, but the only variables are the strength of the solar wind, and distance from the sun. Both the pushing—the solar wind—and the pulling—gravity—decrease with inverse-distance-squared. Hence, distance cancels out, and dust expands away from the sun at a constant rate, neither slowing nor accelerating, in a constant solar-wind.


I cannot find any such justification for the “cancellation of distance” in the standard model. In fact, a more nuanced model would account for the fact that the solar wind is composed partially of ions, which do slow down with distance from the sun. Distance has only a small, “second-order” effect on comet dust. Friedmann starts with distance already gone. There is no clumping in his model, ergo, no need to specify distance-between-clumps. He then calculates the change, or acceleration, based on these two parameters alone—plus the mysterious lambda (λ), or dark energy—for three cases: open; closed and flat universes.

How did this model—sans distance—work out? Great...until put to the test. The acceleration is small, magnitude 10-36/s2. This means a galaxy 1024 m away, over a period of 1012 s, will accelerate by 1 m/s. Such infinitesimal change can only be measured against vast time-scales, and when astronomers were finally able to do so, they found it to be positive (4, 5), not negative, as predicted.

But instead of taking additional factors into account—that is, clumping, wherein distance between clumps must be specified—cosmologists added a mystery: λ, or “dark energy.” Lambda had been assumed to be zero. It is small, magnitude 10-52/m2, but not quite zero. It was hurriedly put back in the equations. And it bears an uneasy resemblance to one of the missing pieces: inverse-distance-squared. Hmm…

Summary: The simplest possible model—a uniformly expanding gas with no stars or galaxies—got the sign wrong on acceleration. Friedmann does not justify this simplification, but scientists always start with the simplest model. If one includes clumping, the problem becomes fiendishly complex, as suggested by the calculation in Figure 3. At the very least, one must include rate-of-clumping, as well as distance between clumps.

My question is: Why wasn’t a distance-measure added to the model...as soon as the model without it failed?References:
1) Friedmann, A., Z. Phys., 1922
2) Newton, I, Principia, 1687
3) Einstein, A, Zur allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie, 4.11.1915
4) Perlmutter, S., Aldering, G., Goldhaber, G., et al. 1999, ApJ, 517, 565
5) Riess, A., Filippenko, A. ,Challis, P., et al.1998, AJ, 116, 1009

Footnote: In 2015, Ahmed Ali and Saurya Das made an indirect case for including distance (Physics Letters B, 2015). They showed that the assumption of quantum gravity forces the insertion of an inverse-distance-squared term into the equations, a term that looks exactly like dark energy. Ali and Das account for the acceleration, in a convoluted way, but without adding an unknown energy source.
 

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  • #2
Peter 727 said:
Summary:: When tackling most gravitational problems, one must include the distance between the objects doing the gravitating. Why is this measure not in the cosmological model?

The standard answer: “In GR, only average density matters.”

That is what Friedmann’s equations (1) say—mathematically—but he does not derive that conclusion. He starts with it.
Straw man. This is not what is generally stated in GR. It is an assumption of the standard model of cosmology, which is built on GR but not fundamental to it.

Also note that the concept of ”distance” is ambiguous in GR and SR alike. What matters is spacetime geometry.
 
  • #3
Peter 727 said:
Figure 3, below

...has a fundamental problem: you are relying on the concept of "gravitational potential energy", but that concept is only well-defined in a stationary spacetime, and the spacetime of the universe is not stationary.

As far as I can tell, this is a fatal flaw in your entire argument.

Peter 727 said:
2) Newton, I, Principia, 1687

Using Newton's Principia as a reference for an argument about relativity should be a big red flag to you that you are relying on concepts that aren't valid in the context of your argument.

Peter 727 said:
In 2015, Ahmed Ali and Saurya Das made an indirect case for including distance (Physics Letters B, 2015). They showed that the assumption of quantum gravity forces the insertion of an inverse-distance-squared term into the equations, a term that looks exactly like dark energy. Ali and Das account for the acceleration, in a convoluted way, but without adding an unknown energy source.

The argument you refer to here is not generally accepted by mainstream cosmologists at this time. I believe we have had some previous threads on it. But in any case, this argument is a different one from the one you are making.
 
  • #4
Orodruin said:
This is not what is generally stated in GR. It is an assumption of the standard model of cosmology, which is built on GR but not fundamental to it.

Also note that the concept of ”distance” is ambiguous in GR and SR alike. What matters is spacetime geometry.
I do not understand the first part. As for the latter, your point seems to be that things are even more complicated than I've made them out to be. Neither part answers my question: Why not employ a more realistic model--one that includes the amount of "spacetime" between clumps--when the one without it failed?
 
  • #5
Peter 727 said:
I do not understand the first part.

He means that when you said "in GR, only average density matters", you should have said "in the Friedmann model, only average density matters". GR has plenty of solutions in which things other than average density matter.

Peter 727 said:
Why not employ a more realistic model

Cosmologists are indeed trying various more realistic models that take into account variations in parameters from place to place. However:

Peter 727 said:
one that includes the amount of "spacetime" between clumps

This is not a good description of how the more realistic models work.

Peter 727 said:
when the one without it failed?

It is not clear that the standard Friedmann cosmology has "failed". It was always understood as an approximation; the question is whether it is a good enough approximation for the purposes for which it is used. Some cosmologists are arguing that it isn't, but their arguments are still open areas of research at this point.
 
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  • #6
PeterDonis said:
It was always understood as an approximation...
Okay. That pretty much answers my question. Distance was left-out as an approximation, although it seems obvious to me, in retrospect, that it is not a good enough approximation. But I know the rules.

When someone outside academia offers a solution to a vexing problem, he or she is ignored at best; censored at worst. But I'll say it anyway: A model of the cosmos needs to include, besides density and expansion-rate: the rate-of-clumping, which is the luminosity density, LD; the quantity of spacetime/distance, Ri, between clumps (galaxy-clusters), which is twice the zero-gravity-radius, about 1023 m; and the efficiency, η (0 < η < 1), with which the energy released by clumping, LD, is coupled to the expansion. The last, energy-coupling, is ignored (assumed to be zero) in the Friedmann approximation.

That is, it takes at least 5 parameters to quantify a model with clumping. I cannot plug these parameters into Einstein’s tensor-matrix-calculus and solve, but my prediction is that if one did, one would find that: energy-coupling (η ) would appear in the answer, divided by distance-between-clumps, squared. In other words:

λ = η/Ri2

Since we already know the value of λ, this would mean η=10-6, or one part per million, which seems reasonable. Furthermore, someone in academia will eventually figure this out, publish the above equation, and get credit for explaining dark energy. Btw, I've used eta (η) in its original meaning: coupling-efficiency of energy. Recently, however, "The journals" have repurposed the forgotten eta, using η to symbolize time. Hmm...
 
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  • #7
Peter 727 said:
Distance was left-out as an approximation

No, density was assumed to be the same everywhere in space as an approximation. "Distance being left out" has nothing to do with it.

Peter 727 said:
I know the rules.

Apparently you don't, since you follow this statement with an uninformed and incorrect personal theory.

Peter 727 said:
When someone outside academia who obviously does not understand the problem well enough offers a solution to a vexing problem, he or she is ignored at best; censored at worst.

See my bolded addition above.

I strongly suggest that you learn a lot more about what standard Friedmann cosmology actually says, and what assumptions it is actually based on; and the same for the various proposed models that add variation of density in space. Not to mention how the Einstein Field Equation in general works in General Relativity and how solutions to it are found.

Thread closed.
 
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1. Why is there no distance-measure in the standard model?

The standard model, which is a theoretical framework in particle physics, does not include a distance-measure because it is not necessary for describing the behavior of subatomic particles. The standard model focuses on the fundamental forces and particles that make up the universe, rather than the distance between them.

2. How do scientists measure distances in the standard model?

Scientists use other methods, such as energy and momentum measurements, to study and understand the behavior of particles in the standard model. These measurements provide valuable information about the fundamental forces and interactions between particles.

3. Can the standard model accurately predict distances between particles?

No, the standard model does not make predictions about distance between particles. It is a mathematical model that describes the fundamental forces and particles in the universe, but it does not provide a physical measurement of distance.

4. Are there any alternative theories that include a distance-measure?

Yes, there are alternative theories, such as string theory, that attempt to incorporate a distance-measure into their framework. These theories go beyond the standard model and aim to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the universe.

5. How does the absence of a distance-measure affect our understanding of the universe?

The absence of a distance-measure in the standard model does not significantly affect our understanding of the universe. It is simply a limitation of the model and does not hinder our ability to make accurate predictions and observations about the behavior of particles and forces. Other theories and measurements can fill in the gaps and provide a more complete understanding of the universe.

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