News Wikipedia Calls for Anti-SOPA Blackout Jan 18

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Wikipedia's planned blackout on January 18 is a protest against the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), which many believe threatens online freedoms and could lead to censorship. Critics argue that the protest's extreme stance may alienate potential supporters, as some feel it oversimplifies complex issues surrounding internet regulation. The law, as proposed, could hold websites liable for user-uploaded content, risking their operation if they fail to remove infringing material. Supporters of the blackout, including Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, assert that the legislation could severely impact the platform's ability to function. The discussion highlights a broader concern about the balance between copyright enforcement and maintaining a free and open internet.
  • #151
Yay!

Thank you.

The Wikipedia blackout is over — and you have spoken.

More than 162 million people saw our message asking if you could imagine a world without free knowledge. You said no. You shut down Congress’s switchboards. You melted their servers. Your voice was loud and strong. Millions of people have spoken in defense of a free and open Internet.

For us, this is not about money. It’s about knowledge. As a community of authors, editors, photographers, and programmers, we invite everyone to share and build upon our work.

Our mission is to empower and engage people to document the sum of all human knowledge, and to make it available to all humanity, in perpetuity. We care passionately about the rights of authors, because we are authors.

SOPA and PIPA are not dead: they are waiting in the shadows. What’s happened in the last 24 hours, though, is extraordinary. The internet has enabled creativity, knowledge, and innovation to shine, and as Wikipedia went dark, you've directed your energy to protecting it.

We’re turning the lights back on. Help us keep them shining brightly.
 
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  • #152
Here are three paragraphs taken from the Scientific American site which help explain the opposition to SOPA.

“In short, SOPA—and its Senate cousin, the Protect-IP Act (PIPA)—would effectively give some companies the power to block other websites with only an accusation.”

“The law targets web sites registered outside the U.S., though its provisions affect many U.S. companies as well. It gives the courts power to force Internet service providers (ISPs) to block their customer’s access to any website that has been accused of engaging in infringing activities. Courts can also force advertising networks, financial transaction providers (such as PayPal) and search engines to stop doing business with the infringing web site—in effect, to block it from the Internet. (The Congressional Research Service has put together a very readable legal analysis [PDF] of an earlier version of the Senate bill.)”

“But the real power in the bill is not in the powers it gives the courts. Rather, the bill creates a system of incentives whereby the mere accusation of copyright infringement is enough to block a site entirely. The law gives immunity to ISPs, financial transaction providers and search engines who voluntarily block web sites accused of infringement. And if they don’t block those sites? Then they, too, may be held legally culpable for the infringing activity. The laws also contain no penalties or disincentives for copyright holders to avoid falsely accusing others of infringement.”

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/01/18/whats-next-in-the-sopa-fight/

IMHO, the law is well-intentioned and necessary, but must be rewritten to address the above consequences.
 
  • #153
Curious3141 said:
I agree with the last statement. The previous paragraph...no comment.

Nah, (I was) a bit frustrated about some International and local Dutch news. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
  • #155
I think the best part of this is that it's shown people on the internet just how much power they have. Too bad it took several major sites promoting it.
 
  • #156
  • #157
  • #158
Hurkyl said:
Sounds wonderful. But what information are they giving? What are they trying to persuade people of?

You can't just look at what they do and say "they're opposing the SOPA and PIPA"; you have to look at what their words are actually promoting.

I'm disappointed because they put words in their blog post that can read as opposing the very idea of laws regarding the internet. And while it matters less, I can't rule out the notion that they actually mean it that way.

I'm making an issue of this because, quite frankly, I find far too many people are willing to agree with and defend any opinion, so long as it's framed as agreeing with them on a particular topic. Even in this thread, it almost looks as if some people can't even tell the difference between the notions of "opposing this particular piece of anti-piracy legislation because it has too many negative side-effects" and "opposing the notion of fighting piracy" (or even "opposing the notion of having laws related to the internet").

I'm surprised you're disapointed. They're called pawns or "swaying masses". They have lots of inertia and once you get them moving, theyre hard to stop.

In a democratic system, reason isn't useful to get the masses swaying (you're fighting sometimes, against people with lots of lobbying/marketing power).

So you have to get the masses swaying in the right direction by appealing to their desires.

Really basic strategy in a system of "majority wins". Goes back to Rome.

But the masses were swayed towards the right decision this time, regardless of their motives. Your kind of discussion only confuses them with facts and accountability. Most people don't care for those.
 
  • #159
http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-feds-shut-down-file-sharing-website-193903205.html

This is the way it should be done, IMO. If piracy exists, shut down and prosecute those responsible. There is no reason to grant the power to block sites simply on an allegation. If the Feds are serious about stopping piracy, they should catch the pirates with the goods and prosecute them. It shouldn't be too tough to do. Who here doubts the ability of the NSA to identify IP addresses of sites offering downloads of pirated materials?
 
  • #160
I wonder how people would react if told that on most of those websites (not MegaUpload, but similar "cyberlocker" sites), you can report a file to be illegal and they'll take it down. Usually without even checking whether it actually is illegal or not.
 
  • #161
Pythagorean said:
Your kind of discussion only confuses them with facts and accountability. Most people don't care for those.

What a genuinely disgusting point of view. Not necessarily WRONG, I'm sad to agree, but disgusting non-the-less.
 
  • #162
phinds said:
What a genuinely disgusting point of view. Not necessarily WRONG, I'm sad to agree, but disgusting non-the-less.

If you agree, but you're disgusted, you must be a cynic? I have graduated to positive cynic :)
 
  • #163
Pythagorean said:
If you agree, but you're disgusted, you must be a cynic? I have graduated to positive cynic :)

Sounds to me more like you have graduated to demagogue. You don't want to educate anyone, you just want them to do what YOU know is right for them.
 
  • #164
phinds said:
Sounds to me more like you have graduated to demagogue. You don't want to educate anyone, you just want them to do what YOU know is right for them.

They are not mutually exclusive (just take a look at our example, Wikipedia). You can, in concert, teach people who are actually interested in learning, you can work in outreach programs, promoting STEM type activities, you can brandish your broader impacts. Essentially, you've raised a strawman, since the people that are receptive to these attempts are not classified as "the masses".

In fact, anyone who's actually interested could have easily bypassed wikipedia's blackout by turning Javascript off. That information is relatively easy to find if you actually care about the information and don't get distracted by the politics or your own self-righteousness.

Back to the actual discussion, people need government to lead them, that is why government's emerge from society, that is why there are laws, because people can't behave congruently without them. A good government does know what is right for people: they have the resources and means to gather the data, and they listen to scientific and political advisers before making political decisions. We try to teach the masses, but the majority of them do not listen. The majority of them are more interested in money... which lobbying corporations happily provide. Nudging the masses (for their own good! SOPA would have been BAD for more than just pirates!) is all that's effective so far. It's still not as powerful as money.

And don't make this personal, I took no part in nudging masses. I am just reporting what I see. If I wanted to nudge masses, I wouldn't be sitting here talking about it openly.
 
  • #165
Pythagorean said:
They are not mutually exclusive (just take a look at our example, Wikipedia). You can, in concert, teach people who are actually interested in learning, you can work in outreach programs, promoting STEM type activities, you can brandish your broader impacts. Essentially, you've raised a strawman, since the people that are receptive to these attempts are not classified as "the masses".

In fact, anyone who's actually interested could have easily bypassed wikipedia's blackout by turning Javascript off. That information is relatively easy to find if you actually care about the information and don't get distracted by the politics or your own self-righteousness.

Back to the actual discussion, people need government to lead them, that is why government's emerge from society, that is why there are laws, because people can't behave congruently without them. A good government does know what is right for people: they have the resources and means to gather the data, and they listen to scientific and political advisers before making political decisions. We try to teach the masses, but the majority of them do not listen. The majority of them are more interested in money... which lobbying corporations happily provide. Nudging the masses (for their own good! SOPA would have been BAD for more than just pirates!) is all that's effective so far. It's still not as powerful as money.

And don't make this personal, I took no part in nudging masses. I am just reporting what I see. If I wanted to nudge masses, I wouldn't be sitting here talking about it openly.

I actually don't have TOO much argument with your point of view and I too am not trying to be personally offensive, I just find it very unfortunate that you are as right as you are.
 
  • #166
Here is an interesting graphic
 

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  • #167
Greg Bernhardt said:
Here is an interesting graphic

Very cool. Thanks for posting.
 
  • #168
turbo said:
http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-feds-shut-down-file-sharing-website-193903205.html

This is the way it should be done, IMO. If piracy exists, shut down and prosecute those responsible. There is no reason to grant the power to block sites simply on an allegation. If the Feds are serious about stopping piracy, they should catch the pirates with the goods and prosecute them. It shouldn't be too tough to do. Who here doubts the ability of the NSA to identify IP addresses of sites offering downloads of pirated materials?
I'm just wondering why the Feds are spending resources on this sort of thing. My guess is that the big money of the American movie and recording industries bought some government action.

Is there now a war on websites that facilitate the downloading of movies and music?

I don't know. It seems kind of silly to me. I mean, what's going to get downloaded mostly except the popular stuff that's already made a ton of money? I guess it wasn't enough money.

It's a good thing we have the FBI, NSA, etc. to ensure that the entertainment industry is able to squeeze every penny out of consumers that they possibly can.

However, imo, they can't stop or even make a discernible dent in online piracy this way. I'm guessing that that's the way the entertainment industry sees it also, and is why they're spending whatever they're spending in support of SOPA and PIPA.

Back on topic, it seems that the Wiki blackout has increased public awareness wrt SOPA and PIPA.
 
  • #169
ThomasT said:
My guess is that the big money of the American movie and recording industries bought some government action.

Wasted a lot of their own and the public's money. Should have spent it hiring me and a team of programmers.
 
  • #170
Evo said:
Greg has said that the threads like favorite youtube videos, etc are ok, because it is youtube's obligation to remove the uploads, which they do, which is why there are so many broken links.

I am not sure all links in the best songs are to youtube. I have a feeling sometimes people post just links to some other sources. So there is a risk we do have links that could make us blocked.
 
  • #171
Pythagorean said:
Wasted a lot of their own and the public's money. Should have spent it hiring me and a team of programmers.

By now, I would like to see some real numbers. Like, what profit now comes from the Internet -even online sales of content,- vs what does dwindling CD sales cost the industry.

I really have the feeling that they are crippling an entire massive industry because of the closure of some CD/DVD shops.
 
  • #172
I imagine that would be hard to quantify: how many people that pirate stuff would have actually bought the stuff had they not been able to pirate it? How many people would have bought the stuff at full price had they not known a distributing pirate?

Hard to guess, methinks
 
  • #173
MarcoD said:
I really have the feeling that they are crippling an entire massive industry because of the closure of some CD/DVD shops.
The culprit is Progress and how old powers simply can't adapt to it.

The other day I saw a discussion on a public news show. The pro-SOPA guy looked like the typical 6-figure, grey-haired, suit-and-tie executive using the smokescreen excuse of losing jobs (as if he wouldn't cut or ship them overseas for more profit). Give him a top hat and cane, and he'd look like he jumped right out of the Monopoly board game.

The anti-SOPA guy was younger, enthusiastic about the future, and seemed full of passion for new ideas and technology's potential, basically the poster boy for companies like Apple and Google that adapt and succeed in this new economy. They focus on making the consumer happy through innovation. It's like in that Social Network movie, the visionary kids are now the CEOs.

Meanwhile Rich Uncle Pennybags can only rely on old formulas of success, giving consumers an endless supply of remakes, sequels, recycled content and reality TV. And then they're surprised when the disgruntled consumer would rather spend their money elsewhere. And worse yet is that when they get desperate they go crying to the government to bail them out at the consumers' expense (again).

Congress would welcome it too as they have more in common with that older, entrenched power. I feel if you give them an inch they'd gladly take a yard to use in fighting all of their wasteful abstract wars (Piracy, Drugs, Terror). Likely, they'd keep growing the role and power of government while demanding even more power/money to fight those same wars when the results don't pan out as expected. Too much mutual backscratching going on there between the two Pennybags of Big Gov and Big Biz, IMO.

Sadly, I think all of these issues would be better served by a more pro-active, market-based approach in order to stay ahead of the problem. Instead of fighting Progress, the music execs should have been the ones to have created Napster way before it came along to undermine them. Focus on a progressive relationship with the consumer and they'll reward you with loyalty and a fan culture much like Apple's.

Instead, the entertainment powers take a reactionary approach to everything by over-milking old models and either fearing new ones or hollowly duplicating them. So I won't shed a tear over their inevitable failure, just like IMO, they never felt sorry for the weaker competition that they crushed in their own march to success. My personal preference is always for the creative innovators that embrace the future.
 
  • #174
Greg Bernhardt said:
Here is an interesting graphic

Wow! How did so many opinions change in one day?

I'm hoping it was public opposition against SOPA that made them change their minds, and not some kind of pay off!
 
  • #175
ginru said:
The anti-SOPA guy was younger, enthusiastic about the future, and seemed full of passion for new ideas and technology's potential, basically the poster boy for companies like Apple and Google that adapt and succeed in this new economy. They focus on making the consumer happy through innovation. It's like in that Social Network movie, the visionary kids are now the CEOs.

When I think of it, then my money goes to the media industry (a lot from the US) through DVD sales and indirectly through the subscription costs of cable (lots of television content is also from the US.)

I am kind-of waiting until YouTube finishes a deal with content providers since I want to get rid of cable and just watch the latest series and movies on the Internet directly when released (there's a lag of half a year, some series are never released.) It could even mean that more money ends up in the US than through the established lines since all local 'overhead' is removed.

(IMO, most of the online content providers still have the business model wrong. People are used to, and want, a flat rate subscription. Something like World of Warcraft. If one could pay ten bucks a month, like ordinary cable, to get the latest content, I am pretty sure half the world would subscribe.)

(You can also probably derive a business model from looking at an average household spending on media, say $15 on subscription and $30 on CD/DVD a month. Then the public will never go for a pay-per-item model, since even at $0.99 one can't get enough content in comparison to the competition, TV. But a $5 subscription to, say, latest HBO releases, a $1 for news, and $5 for other stuff (like kids, comedy, or even adult channels) would probably be reasonable.)
 
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  • #176
jasonoz said:
Wow! How did so many opinions change in one day?

I'm hoping it was public opposition against SOPA that made them change their minds, and not some kind of pay off!

The payoff is votes. The threat (implied or otherwise) that their public will not put them back into power if they don't vote the right way.

At least democracy sort of still works in America (I've given up all hope for the sham in my own country).

This ain't over, not by a long shot. I'm sure there are some mad machinations in the background by the MAFIAA. Waiting for the next salvo.
 
  • #177
What SOPA and PIPA are attempting to do is force the private sector to screen out web sites or references or links to those web sites that offer torrent seeds or direct downloads of copyrighted material in countries where copyright laws are mostly ignored. In these countries, there's virtually no retail market because the average income of the population is so low, so there's a thriving black market that includes duplication of product packaging as well as the product itself. The copyright owners can't really do anything about this situation, and they don't care unless those pirated products make their way into countries where there is a retail market.

One initial issue with these proposals were provisions that would penalize USA companies like internet service providers for not actively screening out all DNS links to web sites in foreign countries declared to be pirate sites. The DNS clause was removed from SOPA, I don't know about PIPA.

Another issue is that any website that allows its users to post text or data, such as a forum, chat room, web hosting service, or any website with a search feature (bing, google, yahoo, ...), ... , could be penalized for not screening all posted content that could contain copyrighted material or links or torrent seeds, including multiple levels of indirection, ..., to copyrighted material or a description of how to do this or reveal some some trade secret.

Youtube tries to screen uploads, but just about any song can be found on youtube and downloaded. Youtube videos could contain text or speech in a video with information on how to access copyrighted content, such as a link or a search term. In some cases, such as clips from movies or music, eventually the video will get removed, or if multiple infractions occur, the account shut down, but then another one will spring up to replace it. However one common result of including music as part of the background of a video, is that youtube places an ad on the video and sends the proceeds to the copyright owner, or to godigital whichs owns a service that auto-screens youtube videos and files "matched third party content" claims to allow those ads to be placed giving a portion of the ad revenue to the copyright owner. Apparently this system is somewhat abused, making false claims to generate revenue from those ads.

My guess is that one of wikipedia's concerns would be the cost of trying to screen every bit of content added to wikipedia. Who would maintain an up to date list of every link, DNS, text description, ... that could be used to access pirated content?
 
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  • #178
Evo said:
Greg has said that the threads like favorite youtube videos, etc are ok, because it is youtube's obligation to remove the uploads, which they do, which is why there are so many broken links.

Right, it's fine, under current laws. I was trying to illustrate the danger of this legislation. Under SOPA, even linking to copyrighted content could theoretically be grounds for a block. This is one of the many complaints, it makes user feedback forums a liability for websites since anyone can link to anything. It opens up a hornets nest of potential censorship.
 
  • #180
He [Republican Senator Lamar Smith] said: "The online theft of American intellectual property is no different than the theft of products from a store.

Really? Has it not been made to be a theft, by modern conceptions of 'Intellectual Property'?

Theft is 'taking something, without the intention of giving it back'. How can data be 'taken' and 'not given back'?

It was once considered a mark of academic credibility to copy books (before printing). Until very recently, many composers (or, even, still - depending on your cynicism) thought nothing of taking another composer's tune and 'elaborating' on it, to call it their own. It was the performance which was the money making part, not the creation of a recording.

Misuse of someone else's IP has evolved in law, and it is not unreasonable to seek to protect the cost and effort one puts into the creation of IP. But theft is the wrong word, and is nothing at all like stealing physical property.
 
  • #181
It's not stealing the copy, it's stealing the right to copy.
 
  • #182
Jimmy Snyder said:
It's not stealing the copy, it's stealing the right to copy.

Stealing is well-defined and includes the act of denying use to the legal title holder or his agents.

IP is not stolen, it is infringed. IP offences are unlawful infringements on rights to exclusive use/sales thereof.

It is like saying that if a Policeman arrests you he has stolen your right to go about your business. That is, he has actually taken something off you. It's pedantics, maybe, but it is not right. He may have infringed your right to go about your business (he might well have done that lawfully), but he has not stolen something from you.
 
  • #183
cmb said:
He [Republican Senator Lamar Smith] said: "The online theft of American intellectual property is no different than the theft of products from a store.

Really? Has it not been made to be a theft, by modern conceptions of 'Intellectual Property'?

Theft is 'taking something, without the intention of giving it back'. How can data be 'taken' and 'not given back'?

More precisely: "Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it."

The "intent to deprive the rightful owner" is the all-important part. This holds even if the thief decides to later return the goods (he still had the original intent to deprive at the time of commission of the crime).

Copyright violation is NOT theft. It's more akin to using water from your well without your permission (even when you have a great excess, so you will never be short). In fact, even this is not accurate since in a lot of cases, the "victim" (in the parallel with the "theft" analogy) is a willing party to the file-sharing - *someone* originally has to buy the music/movie to start sharing it online, right?

So using the analogy to determine the "victim" here is meaningless. The "victim" in copyright cases is said to be the holder of the copyright. They superimpose the faces of the artistes so the little people can make the emotional connection, but in most cases, the copyrights are held by faceless corporate entities trafficking in billions of dollars per annum. If one goes back to the "theft" analogy, it's like Lamar Smith is accusing you of stealing, not from the store per se, but from Kellogg's or Black and Decker directly. It makes absolutely no sense, but when was sense to be expected from a politician?:rolleyes:

What's going on here is that the physical medium for the transmission of the product has become redundant. It's the data stream, the 1s and 0s that's become the real commodity. Unfortunately, it's also a commodity that's eminently suited to being effortlessly duplicated ad nauseam, unless it's crippled in some way with DRM (a rather ironic moniker, because rights are actually being taken away from the consumer, without any real rights being conferred on the artistes who dreamt up the product). So instead of a purchasing sort of structure, they're forced to go to a licensing one - when you buy music, a movie or an ebook, you're only buying the license to use it in certain approved ways. Anything outside those bounds, you're breaking the law. But it still isn't *theft*!

Allow me to meander a little tangentially here - I often think about the "Star Trek" economy - with "replicators" in common use. Right now, when we need to use a hammer or a lawnmower or a car and we don't have one, we have to go to a rightful owner we know and borrow one. Neither the makers nor the designers of those implements are likely to be coming after us. But what if, one day, we could just take a friend's thing and replicate one for ourselves from valueless raw materials? Would the designers of that thing (the "IP holders") come after us for copyright infringement? In Star Trek, stuff like this revolutionised the economy to the extent that it no longer made sense to be remotely capitalistic, but would we get so lucky if that day ever came? Or would we lurch into a half-enlightened state where the only things of value became energy (assuming there was a limited supply and no trivial way to collect/extract it oneself) and "IP"? Will we ever free ourselves of the tethers to greed? I guess it remains to be seen.
 
  • #184
So theft is bad and infringing is good?
 
  • #185
ginru said:
The anti-SOPA guy was younger, enthusiastic about the future, and seemed full of passion for new ideas and technology's potential, basically the poster boy for companies like Apple and Google that adapt and succeed in this new economy.
Apple makes hardware and Google sells ad space on its services. Neither one is an example of how to succeed at being a content provider.

(edit: I had meant to say "content producer" when I wrote this)
 
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  • #186
Hurkyl said:
Apple makes hardware and Google sells ad space on its services. Neither one is an example of how to succeed at being a content provider.

Yah, I feel a bit silly since I didn't know Netflix (unavailable in my country) already sells flat rate services. I have the feeling that there's a small battle going on between the old manner of doing business, the new manner of doing business, and what are now illegal unrestricted content providers.

I looked at youtube, they want to offer a similar service as Netflix, but they only wanted to throw 100 million at the problem. Which isn't enough to buy enough content and break the hegemony of cable, and at the same time is probably too much given that you can also look at content with no cost illegally.

The problem is that YouTube would need to become a content producer (to break the old hegemonies), a content provider, and needs several tens of millions of subscribers at a low cost flat rate at the same time.
 
  • #187
Jimmy Snyder said:
So theft is bad and infringing is good?

Please point to where someone says infringing is good. You know you need evidence for that sort of claim.
 
  • #188
Char. Limit said:
Please point to where someone says infringing is good. You know you need evidence for that sort of claim.
Jimmy was probably making a commentary over the silliness of nitpicking the difference between the two definitions if there is no moral difference.
 
  • #189
Hurkyl said:
Apple makes hardware and Google sells ad space on its services. Neither one is an example of how to succeed at being a content provider.

(edit: I had meant to say "content producer" when I wrote this)

The key is that they adapt to the consumers. Goggle acquired Youtube while Apple has iTunes, both popular means of content distribution in a new market where much of the content is user-generated or digitally replicated. In addition, they both made sure to get a firm grip on the smartphone app markets as again, this is where consumers are shifting.

Businesses that stick to old, one-dimensional models (like Blockbuster and Borders) will struggle in this new market. Another thing to mention is that the content itself isn't really what has the value but rather it's the fan culture around that content. For example, when I dropped my cable TV, I realized that I didn't actually miss any of the shows I was once addicted to but I did miss the water-cooler chat about those shows. I no longer have the patience to sit through the fluff of an entire series, but I do enjoy the short clips and comments that I read on Youtube. It's like watching a long trailer of all the good parts while chatting with fan geeks who read the book.

As for conventional content providers, Disney was smart to re-release their beloved classics in 3D. In addition, they also bought the established fanbases of Pixar and Marvel Comics. Not only does that still pay off in terms of movies, but they can reap the benefits in other media, like gaming.

I'm glad MarcoD mentioned World of Warcraft because it reminds me of my old addiction to Diablo. The game itself was ok, but what really sucked me in was the Battlenet multi-player network/chat. Blizzard and other game makers are a great model to follow as they provide a total package with their own built-in fan culture that gives the users a dynamically evolving experience. This reflects the essence of what consumers want from technology. If these companies had simply focused on that instead of trying to continue exploiting consumers through overpriced CDs and DVDs, then perhaps they wouldn't be so desperate now for legislative help.
 
  • #190
Hurkyl said:
Apple makes hardware and Google sells ad space on its services. Neither one is an example of how to succeed at being a content provider.

(edit: I had meant to say "content producer" when I wrote this)

An interesting note: MTV is now offering their shows online with commercials. I think this is the way it has to be done now.
 
  • #191
Galteeth said:
An interesting note: MTV is now offering their shows online with commercials. I think this is the way it has to be done now.

I think so too. Together with stuff like international and national entertainment and news Internet channels. So the whole world can talk about the same subject when having coffee.

(I have the feeling that a flat rate subscription on a number of channels would work best. Where the provider essentially would sell you the 'experience' of being among the first to watch new content. Guess it needs to happen because I don't think movies or series have a lot of value left once they have been aired anywhere on the world.)
 
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  • #192
russ_watters said:
Jimmy was probably making a commentary over the silliness of nitpicking the difference between the two definitions if there is no moral difference.

There is a moral difference. They're both crimes under current law, but with vastly different implications and ramifications.

To assert there is no moral difference would be as ridiculous as asserting that shoplifting and armed robbery are equally reprehensible crimes.
 
  • #193
We can talk moral philosophy all we want, but if you want to be practical about it, people are going to take the free copy, given a choice. If companies want to preserve profit margins, they just have to come up with a better method of product delivery and development. That's it, no matter how wrong they feel piracy is.
 
  • #194
Pythagorean said:
We can talk moral philosophy all we want, but if you want to be practical about it, people are going to take the free copy, given a choice. If companies want to preserve profit margins, they just have to come up with a better method of product delivery and development. That's it, no matter how wrong they feel piracy is.

This, I agree with. And the (reasonably-priced) paid distribution of said content should be done equitably across the world. Right now, when I try to access legitimate media services hosted in the US from outside the US, I often get a message that tells me such access is prohibited from my location. This is another example of the unfair practices of "copyright holders" - presumably they're holding back on this so that they can make more lucrative deals with the local (non-US) cable networks to release the TV shows at a later date. In the meantime, the avid-TV watching consumers who want to keep current of the latest shows without being done in by the spoilers prevalent on the Internet are disenfranchised.
 
  • #195
Curious3141 said:
To assert there is no moral difference would be as ridiculous as asserting that shoplifting and armed robbery are equally reprehensible crimes.
Don't be silly. The only difference between shoplifting and armed robbery is the weapon. No such difference exists between theft and copyright infringement.
 
  • #196
Curious3141 said:
There is a moral difference. They're both crimes under current law, but with vastly different implications and ramifications.

To assert there is no moral difference would be as ridiculous as asserting that shoplifting and armed robbery are equally reprehensible crimes.
If the end result is loss of income, it's the same damage to the victim. That's the point. Anyone really not understand that?
 
  • #197
The difference is the loss of value. Theft = loss of value. Copyright infringment does not necessarily mean loss of value. It's circumstantial.

There's an obvious loss of value if you copy materials then sell them to the customer yourself. There's no loss of value if someone who would have never bought it, makes a copy for personal use.

This is why it's the responsibility of the company to enforce copyright, not the government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Enforcement_responsibility

Whereas government can enforce theft, because it ALWAYS involves a loss of value. A company can tell me not to copy my CD and give it to a friend. They can't arrest me for it until I start mass distributing (or have evidence that I intend to) and make the loss of value indisputable.
 
  • #198
Jimmy Snyder said:
No such difference exists between theft and copyright infringement.

There is actually a tremendous difference between the two. Theft deprives someone of a good, copyright infringement does not. If I break into a bookstore and steal a bunch of books, or break into a Best Buy and take a bunch of software, the store no longer has the property I stole.

Now, if I break into a bookstore and photocopy the books, or into the Best Buy and copy all the software, they still have the property. This is an important distinction. There is no material loss in infringement.

A friend of mine has a netflix subscription, and invites many people in the apartment building for a movie night once a week. He probably does more damage to the movie rental industry (within our apartment building) than any illegal downloading that occurs in the building- and yet no one would suggest cracking down on having a friend over to watch a movie. Its "theft" in the same way most digital piracy is- enjoying media content you didn't personally pay for.

In my mind, the issue with piracy comes down to two large points-
1. there is a tremendous cost to increase our efforts at policing IP
2. we are in no way suffering from a serious lack of entertainment- movies budgets seem to grow and grow, and yet are still profitable. Itunes has more new music every weak than the local cd shop when I was growing up. Even TV is much better than when I was younger (every cable channel seems to be producing their own content now!).

Until 2 is no longer true, its simply not worth the cost of 1.

If the end result is loss of income, it's the same damage to the victim.

Inviting a friend over to watch a movie you own (or have rented) results in loss of income for movie companies. Should it be in the same moral area as theft?
 
  • #199
ParticleGrl said:
Inviting a friend over to watch a movie you own (or have rented) results in loss of income for movie companies. Should it be in the same moral area as theft?

Writing a negative review for a popular magazine/newspaper/online source results in waaayyyy more loss of income than inviting your friend over. And they get paid for it.
 
  • #200
Jimmy Snyder said:
Don't be silly. The only difference between shoplifting and armed robbery is the weapon. No such difference exists between theft and copyright infringement.

The *only* difference is the weapon?!

How about aggressive intent and assault?

How about long-lasting and scarring emotional and possibly physical trauma caused to the victim(s)?

To disregard all this is far sillier!

And to assert that "no such difference" exists between theft and copyright infringement? That's just as silly! I've already made a long post detailing why I think no exact parallel can be drawn between the victim(s) of theft and the "victim(s)" of copyright infringement. I don't like repeating myself, so feel free to re-read that at your leisure.

And please stop *your* silliness. There is no way you can convince a rational, objective party (i.e. one not brainwashed by the massive disinformation campaign in the media) that theft and copyright infringement are the same thing.
 

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