News Will the House Funding Bill Ignite a Government Shutdown?

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The House has passed a bill to temporarily fund the government while eliminating funding for Obamacare, leading to a potential standoff with the Senate and the risk of a government shutdown. This decision reflects ongoing internal conflicts within the Republican Party regarding the Affordable Care Act, despite its constitutional validation by the Supreme Court in 2012. Republican leaders had previously resisted attempts to defund the law but have now agreed to include its defunding in the continuing resolution. The Senate may face pressure to pass a resolution that funds the government without addressing Obamacare, but the House's majority may block such a vote. The situation raises concerns about the implications of a shutdown on government operations and the economy.
  • #91
Office_Shredder said:
Compare to

http://www.latimes.com/nation/natio...sburg-rally-canceled-20131002,0,6070653.story

and this is clearly politically motivated and nothing more. I was generally supportive of the Obama administrative but this is garbage.

Well I won't shed any tears for the KKK's loss of a protest venue with historical interest.

If that was the *only* thing canceled due to park closures then there may be a case for calling it 'political'. But plenty of gatherings were cancelled. For example, this lovely couple's wedding:

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/go...cle_813ccb56-c8e0-5096-a16d-f69c5f4bfecb.html

The shut down didn't deter this couple, although the nuptials seem to have taken place somewhere less spectacular than Yosemite:

http://www.10news.com/news/san-diego-bride-doesnt-let-shut-down-stop-wedding-10052013

I'm sure there were countless canceled family vacations and hiking trips as well. So I don't see the KKK's cancellation as politically motivated.
 
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  • #92
lisab, the point is the post above mine is about a rally which was allowed to continue, the reason given being "first amendment rights". If that was the real reason then they wouldn't have canceled any rallies. I'm not complaining about things being canceled, I'm complaining about things being canceled and other things not being canceled, when there is zero difference between the situations other than how much the Obama administration likes the people running them.
 
  • #93
Awww poor old KKK.

GRANTS PASS, Ore. — The U.S. Forest Service confirmed Friday it is shutting down logging operations on national forests across the country due to the partial shutdown of the federal government.

The agency plans to notify 450 timber purchasers across the country early next week that timber sales and stewardship contracts will be suspended, Forest Service spokesman Leo Kay said in an email.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/forest-service-stopping-logging-on-national-forests-across-country-due-to-government-shutdown/2013/10/04/8955a55a-2d50-11e3-b141-298f46539716_story.html
 
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  • #94
Office_Shredder said:
lisab, the point is the post above mine is about a rally which was allowed to continue, the reason given being "first amendment rights". If that was the real reason then they wouldn't have canceled any rallies. I'm not complaining about things being canceled, I'm complaining about things being canceled and other things not being canceled, when there is zero difference between the situations other than how much the Obama administration likes the people running them.

That article says the permit for the KKK really was recinded:

The Confederate White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan had received a special use permit to hold a demonstration at the Gettysburg National Military Park on Saturday. But the permit has been rescinded because of the federal government shutdown, which has closed monuments and parks across the nation, according to a park news release.

I don't see in the article where any rally was allowed to continue.
 
  • #96
This morning, on the way to work, the talk radio people were going off about the shutdown of the "Amber Alert System"

Apparently, it's back up.

Though, this morning, I thought about it, and, once again, I sided with Ms. Warren.

my thoughts said:
Obamacare, aka, the Affordable Care Act, means thousands fewer kids will die.
The Amber Alert System going down, will mean about 2 kids per year will die.

And we will all be sad.

Media.

Kill your media, kids...
 
  • #97
Office_Shredder said:
Lisab, I'm talking about this post

:redface:

My apologies. I'm sorry, I missed that link altogether!
 
  • #98
lisab said:
That article says the permit for the KKK really was recinded:



I don't see in the article where any rally was allowed to continue.

The rally was held in downtown Gettysburg. The Gettysburg National Military Park is nearly 6,000 acres. It doesn't look like the KKK needed that much space.:devil:

GETTYSBURG, Pa. (AP) - Four members of the Ku Klux Klan held an event in downtown Gettysburg after the federal government shutdown canceled their plans to rally on the nearby battlefield park grounds.


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20131005_ap_7a79d67f953c4e35bb706e698fb4d68f.html#WuEkQsAYGq3bScGW.99
 
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  • #99
No, but that's not the point. One rally was allowed on a closed space, and the reason given is that the First Amendment apparently trumps government shutdown. But this rally was not allowed on a closed space, despite the First Amendment. Since generally nothing has been allowed, the one rally being allowed is clearly the Obama administration playing favoritism because that rally is being attended by Democrats and supports a liberal cause.
 
  • #100
Office_Shredder said:
No, but that's not the point. One rally was allowed on a closed space, and the reason given is that the First Amendment apparently trumps government shutdown. But this rally was not allowed on a closed space, despite the First Amendment. Since generally nothing has been allowed, the one rally being allowed is clearly the Obama administration playing favoritism because that rally is being attended by Democrats and supports a liberal cause.

1) You're comparing a park in Pennsylvania to what's essentially a large town square (or national square, in this case). Different officials in charge - different interpretation and implementation. In other words, I doubt park officials at each park are contacting the White House to ask how they should handle specific situations.

2) Saying only one rally has been allowed on the national mall is clearly incorrect. A previous "rally" by veterans was led by Congressmen Michele Bachman, Steve Palazzo, and a few other Congressmen. While they did send a request to be allowed to hold the rally in spite of the shutdown, what they actually did was just ignore the barriers and hold the rally anyway.

No one arrested them for trespassing.

In fact, considering the immigration reform rally also had Congressmen involved, including Nancy Pelosi and Robert Menendez, it's at least equally likely that allowing the immigration rally to go on had more to do with the precedent set by the veterans' rally than political ideology.

What are they really going to say? The barriers are meaningless because we're not actually going to arrest anyone for walking past them and we're especially not going to arrest Congressmen that ignore them?

Clearly, what the KKK should do is to move their rally to the national mall and find some Congressmen that will lead their rally. No one will bother them and they'll even give a decent excuse as to why they won't.
 
  • #101
More on web sites: the DoE has asked the National Laboratories not to post any new material on their web sites during the shutdown. This despite the fact that these Laboratories are contractors, remain open and receive some non-federal funding. So there is no reason why they couldn't (at least for now) stay active - but the government clearly does not want that.
 
  • #102
Vanadium 50 said:
More on web sites: the DoE has asked the National Laboratories not to post any new material on their web sites during the shutdown. This despite the fact that these Laboratories are contractors, remain open and receive some non-federal funding. So there is no reason why they couldn't (at least for now) stay active - but the government clearly does not want that.

How much is "some non-federal funding"?

I didn't know squat about the National Labs, so I spent the last hour cruising through some articles and sprinkling of the National Labs web sites: Ames, Argonne, Brookhaven, etc. etc. Lots of financial pie charts.

It looks to me that roughly 90% of the funding for the labs is from the federal government. I'm assuming "Work for Others" is the non-federal funding you mentioned.

It is interesting how much these labs do, that I take for granted, or didn't realize existed: Some GPS critical clock, weather satellites.

As Shutdown Takes Hold, an Essential Few Scientists Still on the Job
October 1, 2013
...
Both Mason and Isaacs stress that, even as their labs remain open, the lack of funding is affecting smaller research efforts. Oak Ridge receives funding through roughly 40 different sub-budgets or "control points," Mason explains. Although lab officials have some ability to redistribute money within each sub-budget, they cannot move money from one to another. So different research efforts will run out of gas at different times if the shutdown continues, Mason says: "There are 40 odd little cliffs that you go over as each of these buckets runs dry." Once enough programs have been forced to stop, Mason says, it will become untenable to keep the lab open, even if other programs still have a shekel or two to spend.
...
In the meantime, there is a fair amount of confusion about how to inform the public about the impact of the shutdown. An NSF official who was at work today after being deemed essential hung up on an inquiry from ScienceInsider because “talking to the media is not part of my excepted duties.” And the media managers at two DOE national laboratories said that all press queries were being handled by DOE’s office of public affairs, which will be closed for the duration of the shutdown.


I wonder what would happen if they turned off the GPS clock. Would everyone get lost?

hmmm... Guess who I'd like to see get lost. But you only get one guess.

scum.and.villainy.jpg
 
  • #103
edward said:
The rally was held in downtown Gettysburg.

Office_Shredder said:
No, but that's not the point. One rally was allowed on a closed space,

Downtown Gettysburg (indeed, the town of Gettysburg in general, apart from the national park facilities) is not a closed space.
 
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  • #104
OmCheeto said:
This morning, on the way to work, the talk radio people were going off about the shutdown of the "Amber Alert System"

Apparently, it's back up.

Though, this morning, I thought about it...

my thoughts said:
Obamacare, aka, the Affordable Care Act, means thousands fewer kids will die.
The Amber Alert System going down, will mean about 2 kids per year will die.

...

These numbers were of course, straight out of my PMR*.

The actual estimates are:

http://www.amberalert.gov/faqs.htm
AMBER Alert programs have helped save the lives of 656 children nationwide. Over 90 percent of those recoveries have occurred since October 2002.

Which by my calculations, comes out to 53.7 children per year.

http://www.thenation.com/article/167256/how-affordable-care-act-saves-lives#
The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies reported in 2009 that reducing health disparities could prevent 85,000 deaths per year.

Of course, the numbers are subjective, and death isn't the only bad thing.

http://www.pressherald.com/opinion/...save-lives-money_2013-09-29.html?pagenum=full
There are about 50 million uninsured Americans, and an estimated 25,000 of them die each year of conditions that could have been avoided with timely care. Another 700,000 people are bankrupted by medical bills every year, King said. This is the only country in the industrialized world where that could happen
.




*Purple Monkey Repository
 
  • #105
The governments Amber alert website was down. The Amber alert system itself was fully operational.
 
  • #106
jtbell said:
Downtown Gettysburg (indeed, the town of Gettysburg in general, apart from the national park facilities) is not a closed space.

Yes, they held it in a non-closed space because the space they originally were going to hold it in was closed.
 
  • #107
FoxNews (yes) has a good article on the unnecessary pain the Obama Administration is inflicting with the shutdown: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ent-shut-down-that-saved-practically-nothing/

It includes the story of a man fined $100 by National Parks police for jogging through Valley Forge. The park includes museums and other facilities which are, of course, closed, but the park itself is just a big open field and includes state roads going through it. He parked his car, went for a run, and found two national parks police waiting for him with a ticket. It would have been cheaper to furlough the police and let people just use the big open field as they wish.

Also included are government associated organizations that are not publicly funded but are still being forced to shut down!

There are other similar stories of obstruction of public facilities that seem to serve no purpose but to create unnecessary pain while costing money instead of saving it.

And CNN has a good Op Ed from Gingrich about his shock at the poll numbers. I was shocked too: given the harsh rhetoric the media has adopted in-line with the Obama administration, I wrongly assumed the public would fall for it like they did when it happened to Gingrich. Surprisingly, no. Yes, Republicans are being blamed more than Democrats, but not by anywhere close to as wide a margin, despite this shutdown being less useful (IMO) than Gingrich's. http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/08/opinion/gingrich-poll-shutdown-blame/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 
  • #108
OmCheeto said:
How much is "some non-federal funding"?

Your 10% number sounds plausible. It surely varies by Lab, as the labs have different missions and clients.

When working with a lab, the costs have two parts: a base cost - the cost of people, equipment, etc. - and "indirects", which go towards operating and managing the laboratory. The indirect rate is smallest for the Department of Energy, larger for other government agencies, and larger still for Work for Others. So this 10% or whatever provides a larger piece of the operations pie that it might appear.

The Lab Director has discretion, in principle, to keep the web sites current. However, when your 90% customer "requests" that the web sites be shut down, it's a good idea to listen to that customer.
 
  • #109
Vanadium 50 said:
Your 10% number sounds plausible. It surely varies by Lab, as the labs have different missions and clients.

When working with a lab, the costs have two parts: a base cost - the cost of people, equipment, etc. - and "indirects", which go towards operating and managing the laboratory. The indirect rate is smallest for the Department of Energy, larger for other government agencies, and larger still for Work for Others. So this 10% or whatever provides a larger piece of the operations pie that it might appear.

The Lab Director has discretion, in principle, to keep the web sites current. However, when your 90% customer "requests" that the web sites be shut down, it's a good idea to listen to that customer.

I see the forced web shutdowns as a message. "This is what you will have if you decide to to go through with your idea of shrinking and drowning the government".

Not sure if anyone has seen the irony in that we are discussing all of this on a media made possible by the government.

It's also interesting to see how this is starting to affect the people around me. One of my cousin's, a field biologist, spent a summer in Antarctica at the McMurdo Station. His Facebook page is all atwitter with the fact that all Antarctic research facilities may be shut down for the entire year.

I'm always joking with people, asking them to guess how many days I have left until I retire. Yesterday, the young lady I asked, said she may be leaving before I do. She does biomedical research, funded by NIH grants.

Of course, being an armchair scientist, watching what happens when you throw a shoe into scientific machinery, makes me cringe.

wiki on the National Science Foundation shutdown said:
The National Science Foundation will not make payments to scientists during the shutdown. The NSF will not accept reports from grantees and will not respond to inquiries.

The National Radio Astronomy Observatory, which is funded by the NSF, shut down three radio telescopes: the Green Bank Telescope in West Virginia, the Very Large Array in New Mexico and the Very Long Baseline Array which stretches from Hawaii to the US Virgin Islands. These telescopes are used by thousands of astronomers. One radio astronomer told the journal Science that a shutdown could render useless a yearlong project to trace the shape of the Milky Way which had already cost $500,000. 385 NRAO employees were furloughed.

The United States Antarctic Program announced that it will move its three research stations to "caretaker" status, meaning that "all field and research activities not essential to human safety and preservation of property will be suspended". Most work at Antarctica is done between the months of October and February, when the region experiences summer. Because of the logistical difficulties involved in working in Antarctica, the shutdown may result in the cancellation of all American research in Antarctica for the entire 2013-2014 season. Scientists at McMurdo Station, Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station, and Palmer Station study topics such as biology, astrophysics and climate change.
 
  • #110
Well, not everything is shut down, some things have been deemed ESSENTIAL!

ESSENTIAL: The gym for members of the House of Representatives.

The House gym reserved exclusively for lawmakers remains open during the shutdown. It features a swimming pool, basketball courts, a sauna and steam room. "This job is very stressful and if you don't have a place to vent, you are going to go crazy and that's why I've used it all these years,” said Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), who has been a user since 1973. While there's no towel service available during these tough times, taxpayers are still paying for maintenance and cleaning. The House gym for staff members, however, is closed.
OMG, NO TOWELS?

ESSENTIAL: Every single member of Congress.
Want the shutdown to end? Don't pay these idiots.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/congress-government-shutdown_n_4065432.html
 
  • #112
  • #113
The link calls out that some lawmakers are holding their pay in escrow, while others are refusing pay or donating, and then goes on to say that the list is only of lawmakers who are refusing pay or donating, so I assume that means none of them are just holding their pay in escrow.
 
  • #114
Office_Shredder said:
The link calls out that some lawmakers are holding their pay in escrow, while others are refusing pay or donating, and then goes on to say that the list is only of lawmakers who are refusing pay or donating, so I assume that means none of them are just holding their pay in escrow.
No, if you read what the individuals are doing, those listed include those that are having their pay withheld during the shutdown, they will get it after the shutdown ceases (according to law), they have to receive the money, they can then donate, return or keep it.

What you are referring to is this comment
Note: Below this list will be members of Congress who previously said they were donating or refusing the shutdown pay.
But if you look at the names on the list you will see that some are just having their pay held, but will receive it after the shutdown (oh deception!)

But donating a portion of one congressional salary during the shutdown may not be as simple and straightforward as it sounds. Even if a lawmaker decided to refuse his or her pay, the compensation is considered mandatory spending in the federal budget, and the Constitution requires that House and Senate lawmakers’ pay cannot be altered until the start of a new term.

So lawmakers will face a choice: They can continue receiving their pay and then write checks to the U.S. Treasury or their favorite charity, or they can opt to have their pay withheld and placed in escrow for the duration of the shutdown. If the shutdown continues beyond the current two-week pay period, House and Senate administrative offices will hold on to the funds and distribute them after the impasse, leaving it up to the lawmaker to decide what to do.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...ed-warrior-project-house-and-senate-lawmakers
 
  • #115
Evo said:
I want the list of the phonies that are just "holding in escrow", meaning that they aren't giving up anything, they will collect all back pay as soon as the shutdown is over.
Isn't that just like all the furloughed government workers?
 
  • #116
russ_watters said:
Isn't that just like all the furloughed government workers?
The furloughed workers don't have a choice. A politician that plans to collect money for themselves after the shutdown should not be listed the same as the ones that plan to give it to charity. IMO. I would like to know who's keeping the money and who is not, since they're making a list.
 
  • #117
Evo said:
The furloughed workers don't have a choice. A politician that plans to collect money for themselves after the shutdown should not be listed the same as the ones that plan to give it to charity. IMO. I would like to know who's keeping the money and who is not, since they're making a list.

Here is a good link + a video on the pay issue. On page two there is a link to the 10 poorest congressmen.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politi...in-Congress-see-fit-to-donate-their-pay-video
 
  • #118
Evo said:
The furloughed workers don't have a choice. A politician that plans to collect money for themselves after the shutdown should not be listed the same as the ones that plan to give it to charity. IMO. I would like to know who's keeping the money and who is not, since they're making a list.

Hey! It's not like they are all millionaires. Some of them are less than poor.

10 'Poorest' Members of Congress Owe Big

http://cdn.rollcall.com/media/newspics/318/valadao091913.jpg
Valadao is the “poorest” member of Congress​


$4,100,000.00 in debt.

He might need his paycheck.

Though, to be honest, it doesn't look like he's starving.

SCREEEETCH!

I just asked my new bartender if he knew anybody that this was affecting. He said; "Me."

He is in the National Guard. He did not get his last paycheck.

anyways, the WiFi here keeps going up and down, and the 50 Richest Members of Congress: The Wealth Keeps Growing link intrigues me.

the median net worth of the 50 richest [congressmen] rising more than 17 percent

But I will have to wait until I get a reliable internet connection before I push the "Submit Reply" button.

I know how the world is.
 
  • #119
The median net worth of the 50 richest congressman is just the average of the net worths of the 25th and 26th richest congressman. If you look at their actual list only a few of them are making gains similar to that, and I think that statistic is a bit misleading. Anytime a new very wealthy person joins Congress that number goes up for no reason (and there are 7 new people on that list), if you look at the 25th person on that list excluding the new-comers, and compare his net worth to the actual 25th's net worth, just the new members of congress should have pushed up the median by 27%. Obviously some rich people could have dropped out of Congress as well, but the upshot is that that number doesn't seem to be very meaningful to me.
 
  • #120
Wait, how is this guy in office??

2. Alcee L. Hastings: -$2.23 million

A lawyer and former federal judge, Hastings is still paying off legal fees of more than $2 million that he incurred in a trial on charges of bribery while he was serving on a U.S. district court. The Florida Democrat was acquitted of the charges in 1983, but a federal panel later concluded he had lied and fabricated evidence.
From the CS Monitor link.
 

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