News Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

[Greg Bernhardt]

Having someone here from there I would like to ask is there really as many people protesting as the news says? I find it hard to believe when I read it was like 10-20k people is it actually true?

Today it was closer to 30k. It will be very interesting tomorrow. The capitol was closed early today and hopefully resume tomorrow with a vote if those 14 law makers show up to work.

 

[WhoWee]

Today it was closer to 30k. It will be very interesting tomorrow. The capitol was closed early today and hopefully resume tomorrow with a vote if those 14 law makers show up to work.

I saw a news report that indicated high school students were attending with their teachers, the DNC had coordinated Organizing for America (part of President Obama's ground forces in2008) from out of town?

http://nation.foxnews.com/wisconsin-protests/2011/02/17/dnc-caught-organizing-wisconsin-protests#

Perhaps the DNC should focus on efforts to convince those politicians to return from hiding and do their job?

 

[vici10]

I hear so much of that and other related things, it is hard for me to feel sympathy for teachers. I've heard them say they work long hours, yet few ever work more than 45 hours a week and have all summer off (most I know work summer jobs!). I've heard complaints about it taking a long time to get tenure (5 years!) mixed with complaints about the poor performance of older, burned-out teachers. Teaching really is a pretty sweet deal and in a poor economy, even sweet deals need to be on the cutting table.

So maybe we shouldn't be comparing people on PF to teachers.

Why not? May be it is better first to ask PF members who are teachers. For example, there is an interesting thread and FrancisZ gives an interesting insight into teacher's life and conditions of work.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=431354&highlight=teachers&page=3"

I quote here his post #48

Well, if they don't extend the school year--which personally, I think could be ironed out a little bit better, even as is (say actually from Sept 1st to Jun 30, which it never really is)--then I am in favor of extending the day from 8am-4pm (rather than to 2:30 or 3). That seems more like a normal work day, anyhow.

Teachers usually start working at 7 am though; and also usually go well passed 3 o'clock. I used to go at least until 4 or 5 on a regular basis myself. At one insane job (getting ready for re-accreditation) I literally worked from 8am to 10pm or midnight in the school building, frequently (at least once a week). There just wasn't enough people on staff. But I did it because I loved my boss, and I believe in what we were doing. She worked just as long as I did (if not longer).


I have a sort of on fence feeling about unions. I've always worked in Catholic schools. And for the most part, they aren't unionized or have crappy unions.

The union never did much for us in the way of medical benefits or retirement; but just having the union did increase my salary to something slightly more bearable.


My personal work history compensation in Catholic schools, went like this (no lie)...


Subbing (last semester of college): $50/day.

1st full year: $21,500 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

2nd year: $22,? (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

3rd year: $23,? (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

4th year: $25,000 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

5th year: $27,000 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).


6th year: $44,000 (NY; weak union; terrible insurance; and I did get paid through the summer, but the school actually stiffed me--I got something closer to $38k or $39k).

7th year: $52,? (NY; weak union; terrible insurance; but did not get paid through the summer, and also got stiffed--something like $39k again).

Subbing again: $75/day.

Teachers in public schools make more I'm told. Coincidence? They have a strong union. I also think people who don't really deserve it--because you can tell that they're lazy and uncaring--get paid very well in many cases.

So without unions, teachers are paid 20,000-30,000 per year. If Americans think that their children should be educated by people who paid this amount of money then yes, go ahead and forbid them to unionize.

 

[WhoWee]

So without unions, teachers are paid 20,000-30,000 per year. If Americans think that their children should be educated by people who paid this amount of money then yes, go ahead and forbid them to unionize.

Your data does not match your conclusion. The lowest amount I see is $21,500 - at least 8 years ago (perhaps longer?). Also, did changing states have something to do with the pay raise (NJ to NY)? Last, just out of curiosity - why is she now subbing at $75 per day? Did she retire - now engaged in "double-dipping"?

 

[nismaratwork]

Not sure if people have been aware of this situation, but it's getting a bit crazy here and I'd like outside opinions on it. All my friends/family are fiercely divided on this issue and things are heating up! We had 20k+ people at the capitol yesterday. Many schools closing today due to teachers leaving to protest.

Details of the matter are in this link
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html


Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

WI Rep says "...it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."

I deplore the rhetoric, but not as much as I do an attempt to destroy the powerbase of the opposition in the name of saving money.

doubling input to pensions, I truly don't know, but we've already SEEN what a lack of collective bargaining does, and it isn't preferable to work under those conditions.

Still.. Cairo? When local police start to kill protestors in running street battles, then yeah, I'll buy that. I don't see how that kind of comparison from a state rep does anything to bring parties to the table. In the meantime, 3 days of missed school has one DEFINITE effect: it's bad for kids, and it will have to be made up.

If Democrats put a provision to disallow corporations from participating in the political process, even indirectly, under the rubric of 'saving money'... I can't imagine a better outcome.

 

[vici10]

Your data does not match your conclusion. The lowest amount I see is $21,500 - at least 8 years ago (perhaps longer?).

I just rounded the figures, being more pedanting as you demand, I shall say 21,500-27,000.

Although in other thread I found the following:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=441634&page=2"

Here are the twenty worst paying college degrees.

http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-m...0-worst-paying-college-degrees-in-2010/2618/"

Oh geez. How did I know Education had to be in there.

And if it's Catholic school, I assure you that the starting salary is $10k-$20k less than mentioned.

Also, did changing states have something to do with the pay raise (NJ to NY)?

Maybe or maybe not. I do not know.It is better to ask people who worked as teachers in different states. FrancisZ said that it was due to unions. Maybe in New York teachers are better unionized than in New Jersey that is why there is such a difference.

Last, just out of curiosity - why is she now subbing at $75 per day? Did she retire - now engaged in "double-dipping"?

First, I think it is he, not she. But I do not know answer to your question. Hopefully, FrancisZ reads the treads and can explain to us more about teacher's life.

Edit: I do not think FrancisZ is retired. According to his profile he is 30 years old. So I do not think it is "double-dipping".

 

[ParticleGrl]

I'd like to point out again, in case it has been missed- the state is not facing a short fall, it is projected to end the year with a balance:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

The state entered into an collective bargaining agreement, and rather than honor the terms of the contract, it wants to ban the union from collective bargaining and ignore the contract. I think this sets a terrible precedent.

 

[WhoWee]

I'd like to point out again, in case it has been missed- the state is not facing a short fall, it is projected to end the year with a balance:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

The state entered into an collective bargaining agreement, and rather than honor the terms of the contract, it wants to ban the union from collective bargaining and ignore the contract. I think this sets a terrible precedent.

At first glance, I'm not certain if this is included in the budget or not?

"Patients Compensation Fund. On July 20, 2010, the State Supreme Court ruled that the
state cannot transfer monies out of the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund (Fund).
In the 2007-09 state budget, $200 million was transferred from the Fund to advantage the general
fund. The Court remanded the case to the circuit court with directions that the $200 million,
with lost earnings and interest, be placed in the Fund. To date, the circuit court has not
established an amount or date of payment.
A status conference was scheduled to be held on January 24, 2011, regarding progress of
the parties in coming to an agreement in calculating earnings and attorney fees pertaining to the
Fund transfer. That conference was canceled and has been rescheduled for March 21, 2011.
Pending the outcome of the court directive, the state may be required to return some, or all, of
the court-ordered amount to the Fund in 2010-11."

 

[Janus]

The double dipping is also a major problem in our area - with teachers. They retire and receive about 80% of their former wage - then are rehired at the starting wage (about $28,000).

And this is bad, Why?

I mean, would you object if they went to work for someone else after retirement just as long as it wasn't their original employer?

The district gets a experienced teacher for the price that they would have had to pay to replace them with a new teacher anyway. As long as a new position isn't created for them, the district comes out ahead.

And is that with or without fringe benefits? I know that in my area, if you were to get rehired, it would be without fringe. Of course here, you would also be limited to working 1080 hr/yr without it affecting your pension.

What a lot of teachers do is retire as of Dec 31, and then work out the rest of the school year. Then when the next calendar year starts, they might work as a substitute teacher.

 

[WhoWee]

And this is bad, Why?

I mean, would you object if they went to work for someone else after retirement just as long as it wasn't their original employer?

The district gets a experienced teacher for the price that they would have had to pay to replace them with a new teacher anyway. As long as a new position isn't created for them, the district comes out ahead.

And is that with or without fringe benefits? I know that in my area, if you were to get rehired, it would be without fringe. Of course here, you would also be limited to working 1080 hr/yr without it affecting your pension.

What a lot of teachers do is retire as of Dec 31, and then work out the rest of the school year. Then when the next calendar year starts, they might work as a substitute teacher.

Shouldn't retired people - retire?

Our unemployment rate is about 9% - quite a few are teachers forced to take part time work in trade schools and community colleges (no benefits) or as subs (and many of the sub jobs are being filled by retirees).

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Something else that hasn't been brought up is that the police, fireman and lawmaker's are exempt from this bill.

 

[nismaratwork]

Something else that hasn't been brought up is that the police, fireman and lawmaker's are exempt from this bill.

Well... sure... the first is an industry, the second are generally considered heros, and third are making the bill.

Seems like a built-in argument for collective bargaining.

 

[WhoWee]

Well... sure... the first is an industry, the second are generally considered heros, and third are making the bill.

Seems like a built-in argument for collective bargaining.

SOME of the third - the rest are in hiding.

 

[nismaratwork]

SOME of the third - the rest are in hiding.

Yeah, it's a pretty typical thing in politics; the party out of power always deplores the usage of rules. Which party never seems to matter... which is telling.

 

[WhoWee]

Let's label this opinion - and humor - is it any wonder the states in yellow (Great Lakes and CA specifically) have economic problems?

http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

 

[ParticleGrl]

Let's label this opinion - and humor - is it any wonder the states in yellow (Great Lakes and CA specifically) have economic problems?

http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

It looks to me like pretty much a wash. Yea, California has a economic problems, but so does Arizona, etc. Keep in mind, 44 states are facing budget shortfalls. This isn't a problem related to unions.

 

[vici10]

Below is a link for some pictures of demonstration in Wisconsin
http://lbo-news.com/2011/02/16/wisconsin-erupts/"
http://lbo-news.com/2011/02/18/more-wisconsin/"

 

[WhoWee]

Below is a link for some pictures of demonstration in Wisconsin
http://lbo-news.com/2011/02/16/wisconsin-erupts/"
http://lbo-news.com/2011/02/18/more-wisconsin/"

Here's a fun video...please label (IMO)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=71gsnLfsbbM

 

[WhoWee]

I'm wondering if the school districts are responsible for the safety of the students that were organized by the (non-striking - just "sick" teachers)? Any legal experts want to give an opinion?

 

[Janus]

Shouldn't retired people - retire?

Our unemployment rate is about 9% - quite a few are teachers forced to take part time work in trade schools and community colleges (no benefits) or as subs (and many of the sub jobs are being filled by retirees).

You're assuming that those teachers who "retire" and then continue to work wouldn't have just kept working if the first option were not available to them. In my state, the teacher's pension is basically figured upon how long they have worked and how long they are expected to live after they retire. So if a teacher were not allowed to work after retiring, they would be more likely to work past the point were they could retire in order to pad their pension for when they are no longer able to work.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Something else that hasn't been brought up is that the police, fireman and lawmaker's are exempt from this bill.

That's different- AFAIK, Ohio is not exempting emergency workers.

 

[WhoWee]

You're assuming that those teachers who "retire" and then continue to work wouldn't have just kept working if the first option were not available to them. In my state, the teacher's pension is basically figured upon how long they have worked and how long they are expected to live after they retire. So if a teacher were not allowed to work after retiring, they would be more likely to work past the point were they could retire in order to pad their pension for when they are no longer able to work.

If they weren't ready to retire - why would they retire and be rehired as a teacher - other than to "double dip"?

 

[Andy Resnick]

And this is bad, Why?

I mean, would you object if they went to work for someone else after retirement just as long as it wasn't their original employer?

<snip>

Double-dipping is a problem. The typical situation I dealt with was a government employee would retire ASAP (say, 55), and start to draw retirement benefits. Then, they would cross the street and be hired by a contracting firm because the 'retiree' still had knowledge and contacts to provide a competitive advantage in the bidding process. Thus, the 'retiree' was drawing retirement salary (and other accrued benefits) even though they were not retired, in addition to their contractor salary.

 

[WhoWee]

I wonder how long the WI legislators can hide outside the state - before a special election could be called to replace them or appointments could be made? Also, shouldn't their pay and benefits be suspended - along with all expense reimbursements? Why should WI taxpayers have to pay for their childish (and irresponsible) behavior?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The circus has just begun!

On the first floor of the Capitol rotunda, Democratic activist Jesse Jackson was cheered by the crowd Friday at noon. Surrounded by people on all sides and peering down at the ground floor from the upper-level railing, Jackson addressed the crowd with a bullhorn and most of his speech could not be heard clearly. But he lead the throng in chants of "we're not going away" and "kill the bill" and in singing the civil-rights era standard "We shall overcome."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

 

[WhoWee]

The circus has just begun!

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

I don't think Jesse Jackson singing civil rights era songs - in support of people who don't want to contribute to their own pensions and healthcare costs - is going to work this time.

This, together with the activities of the DNC, smacks of desperation.

 

[russ_watters]

Why not?

Because I didn't struggle my way through an engineering degree instead of partying my way through a communications degree just to become a teacher!

Teachers usually start working at 7 am though; and also usually go well passed 3 o'clock.

That's said as if it is supposed to be impressive. Assuming a half-hour lunch, 3:30 would be 8 hours. In order to work a basic 40-hour full-time job in 9 months, teachers would have to work roughly from 7 to 6 every day (10.5 hours). I won't complain about working more because I get paid for overtime, but an awful lot of people work more than 40 hours in a typical week and don't get paid overtime.

Regarding your pay data, it's way too low to be representative. In NJ, starting average is $38,000 and average average is $58,000. Both of those are top 5 in the country, though: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary

However, given that they only work about 9 months a year, that's more like $50,000 and $77,000 a year.

I'm alo pretty sure that's just base pay - it doesn't include benefits, which are much better than in most other jobs. Not to mention near-absolute job security...

 

[russ_watters]

And this is bad, Why?

As said, it's double-dipping.

I mean, would you object if they went to work for someone else after retirement just as long as it wasn't their original employer?

No.

The district gets a experienced teacher for the price that they would have had to pay to replace them with a new teacher anyway. As long as a new position isn't created for them, the district comes out ahead.

That's only true if you don't include the pension! It's a loophole that allows them to get paid more than if they hadn't taken advantage of the program and the taxpayers pay for it.

You're assuming that those teachers who "retire" and then continue to work wouldn't have just kept working if the first option were not available to them.

No, that's exactly the point: those who take advantage of the program probably would not have retired if this program wasn't available to them. This is a way to game the system for extra money paid for by the taxpayers.

In my state, the teacher's pension is basically figured upon how long they have worked and how long they are expected to live after they retire. So if a teacher were not allowed to work after retiring, they would be more likely to work past the point were they could retire in order to pad their pension for when they are no longer able to work.

Agreed. So they'd be paid less and pay-in to the pension more for the same work, right?

But at least they only get rehired at the starting salary in your example. I'm not sure that's always the case. Regardless, in some places like for generic city workers (including councilmembers) in Philly, it costs the city hundreds of millions of dollars in extra pay ($258 million over 10 years):
http://articles.philly.com/2010-08-05/news/24973521_1_pension-costs-pension-plan-city-paper

 

[WhoWee]

Because I didn't struggle my way through an engineering degree instead of partying my way through a communications degree just to become a teacher! That's said as if it is supposed to be impressive. Assuming a half-hour lunch, 3:30 would be 8 hours. In order to work a basic 40-hour full-time job in 9 months, teachers would have to work roughly from 7 to 6 every day (10.5 hours). I won't complain about working more because I get paid for overtime, but an awful lot of people work more than 40 hours in a typical week and don't get paid overtime.

Regarding your pay data, it's way too low to be representative. In NJ, starting average is $38,000 and average average is $58,000. Both of those are top 5 in the country, though: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary

However, given that they only work about 9 months a year, that's more like $50,000 and $77,000 a year.

I'm alo pretty sure that's just base pay - it doesn't include benefits, which are much better than in most other jobs. Not to mention near-absolute job security...

Perhaps this will put the Wisconsin situation into perspective:

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/wisconsin.html

"Wisconsin Teaching Salaries and Benefits
People often believe that teachers don't make a lot of money. Those in the know, though, are aware that compensation in the education industry can be quite generous, especially when you factor in the great vacation schedule and the comprehensive benefits packages that usually go along with teaching. In Wisconsin, teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association, with most school districts offering benefits that range from health insurance to retirement plans. (1)"

 

[vici10]

Because I didn't struggle my way through an engineering degree instead of partying my way through a communications degree just to become a teacher!

You would not believe, but not all teachers partied though communications degree , many have science degrees (physics, mathematics, etc). FrancisZ has degree in physics.

Regarding your pay data, it's way too low to be representative. In NJ, starting average is $38,000 and average average is $58,000. Both of those are top 5 in the country, though: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary

Regarding your data, I guess it includes schools with unions, i.e public schools. My quote in previous post was for catolic schools without unions. So if unions for public schools will be baned then I guess salaries for teachers will drop to the range of 20,000-30,000 without summer paid and without benefits as it is now in schools without unions.
But I guess, it does not bother you, since it seems you think that engeneers superior to teachers.