World Chess Champ Says Computers Ruined Chess

[Hornbein]

Dominant player Magnus Carlson has quit classical chess partly because preparation demands too much memorization of computer-generated lines. The resulting game favors a long series of draws. "I know I'm better but can't get enough advantage to get a win."

Nowadays he only plays either the various versions of rapid chess where he can play an unusual opening or Fischer Random where the opening placement of the pieces is randomized, rendering extensive memorization impractical. The ruling body of chess tried to wipe out Fischer Random by banning "their" players from such tournaments, but appears to have given in.



Even in rapid chess his boredom is obvious. To make it a challenge he resorts to gambits such as deliberately showing up late in order to give his opponent a time advantage.

 

[dextercioby]

Chess has always been a part memory, part skill/genius, but now it's ridiculous. 30 years since Kasparov traded games with Deep Blue. Ffw 29 years later and the charm is gone

 

[martinbn]

Dominant player Magnus Carlson has quit classical chess partly because preparation demands too much memorization of computer-generated lines. The resulting game favors a long series of draws. "I know I'm better but can't get enough advantage to get a win."

Nowadays he only plays either the various versions of rapid chess where he can play an unusual opening or Fischer Random where the opening placement of the pieces is randomized, rendering extensive memorization impractical. The ruling body of chess tried to wipe out Fischer Random by banning "their" players from such tournaments, but appears to have given in.



Even in rapid chess his boredom is obvious. To make it a challenge he resorts to gambits such as deliberately showing up late in order to give his opponent a time advantage.

This is a few years old.

 

[dextercioby]

It may be old, but the issue is still present. He's best player in the world for more than 10 years, but retired from World Championship play.

 

[martinbn]

It may be old, but the issue is still present. He's best player in the world for more than 10 years, but retired from World Championship play.

Fisher also was the best at the time and retired. A new thread on that!

 

[sbrothy]

Yeah, or Philidor, the master of pawns (albeit from another time). I find it a little suspicious that Magnus Carlson stops playing chess using computers as an excuse not long after he was beat by that youngster where he claimed foul play. I was always under the impression that grandmasters were good because they recognized so many positions that they almost always knew what should be done in any given situation. The "being able to look 5 moves ahead thing" never really convinced me. But I see how the former (well the latter too to be fair) is hard against a computer.

 

[loop quantum gravity]

Boohoo, spoken like a true LOSER.



Anyways, if in a perfect game anyways one side always wins or there's always a draw; the best you can do is keep drawing or find another game that is not solved yet.
But that's always true of any game, btw.
I suggest to Magnus to try learning mathematics for its own sake or also theoretical physics. It's quite enjoyable to solve something by yourself instead of letting someone else's solve it for you...

 

[martinbn]

Boohoo, spoken like a true LOSER.



Anyways, if in a perfect game anyways one side always wins or there's always a draw; the best you can do is keep drawing or find another game that is not solved yet.
But that's always true of any game, btw.
I suggest to Magnus to try learning mathematics for its own sake or also theoretical physics. It's quite enjoyable to solve something by yourself instead of letting someone else's solve it for you...

Clearly you know nothing about chess, nor about Magnus.

 

[sbrothy]

Boohoo, spoken like a true LOSER.



Anyways, if in a perfect game anyways one side always wins or there's always a draw; the best you can do is keep drawing or find another game that is not solved yet.
But that's always true of any game, btw.
I suggest to Magnus to try learning mathematics for its own sake or also theoretical physics. It's quite enjoyable to solve something by yourself instead of letting someone else's solve it for you...

I suspect he's on the spectrum. Every chess player with a high ELO-rating I've ever encountered was on the spectrum. Some of them couldn't even tie their own shoelaces.

Nah, I'm joking.

 

[oracle99]

This is a long running debate. If you play chess, checkers, connect4, etc as entertainment, either with human or computer opponent, then it doesn't really matter if computers can beat you, or if the game is "solved" or not.

I have written checkers (and chess) engines/programs, going back to 1981 on an 8k PET!

I remember Chinook beating checkers champion Tinsley, and "solving" the game with 8 piece endgame databases. We now have 12 piece dbs.. The world champions of these games now avoid computer tournaments!

Checkers had 3 move opening ballot long before the advent of strong computers, playing free style had just become a memory contest.

I knew Derek Oldbury (World checkers Champion), he made a similar point about 3 move, it just became a contest of remembering long lines to defend weak positions when you have the weak side, rather than an enjoyable creative process.

Chess is still played seriously, but I think probably the arcade action type games have done more to kill humble hobby games like chess, checkers, etc.

For those interested, my checkers programs (old & newish) are free/open source, here:
https://github.com/orac81/Orac-Draughts

 

[Muu9]

I wonder if Go will become the new strategy game of choice - even post-AI, top Go play is not as memorization intensive as Chess

 

[sbrothy]

I wonder if Go will become the new strategy game of choice - even post-AI, top Go play is not as memorization intensive as Chess

I was expecting someone to mention Go. I'm sure they're already attacking the problem but it wont be as "easy" as chess. Or perhaps, on the contrary, maybe there's some weakness that will make it easy for computers. I suspect we would have heard of it by now though.

 

[pbuk]

I suspect we would have heard of it by now though.

Er... https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ai-go-is-not-a-crowd-pleaser.1086239/

 

[sbrothy]

Er... https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ai-go-is-not-a-crowd-pleaser.1086239/

Hah. Sorry. My bad. I knew about AlphaGo but that it's so dull is new to me. Well there you have at least one reason why computers aren't going to excel there!

 

[pbuk]

I have written checkers (and chess) engines/programs, going back to 1981 on an 8k PET!

Great to have you here: there are a few of us around here that remember what assembly programming was like back then.

 

[oracle99]

Thanks! Back then it was mostly actually written on an 8k PET too, I didn't have other computers. Lots of hand written code on squared paper, it took forever.

I think Woz hand assembled the first Apple basic that way too, you can find jump patches in the code.

 

[sbrothy]

I was baptized using CP/M and MSX Toshiba HX-22. When the PC XT arrived with it’s 20 MB HDD and 4 color CGA “GPU” it felt like entering the wizards lair!

EDIT: I didn’t know the PET but it’s a beauty alright.

EDIT2: And with inbuilt tape drive! Pure scifi!

 

[sophiecentaur]

Dominant player Magnus Carlson has quit classical chess partly because preparation demands too much memorization of computer-generated lines.

This is a great example of 'human nature' spoiling the fun. What goes on at the top of a pastime is hardly at all relevant to the enjoyment of the 99.9% of participants.

Now we can buy a 3D Printer for the home, should that impinge on our enjoyment from 'whittling' and our pottery classes? AI will surely need tight control from the authorities but is has many potential (and extant) benefits for humans. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Apologies: I think I used the same old epithet elsewhere, recently.)

 

[Hornbein]

I wonder if Go will become the new strategy game of choice - even post-AI, top Go play is not as memorization intensive as Chess

Go has so many more possible moves than chess that memorization seems infeasible. That's why when a computer became world Go champion I knew the revolution was here, though I didn't know what form it would take.

In bridge every deal is different so rote memorization isn't happening. Computers are still not very good at bridge. There isn't enough money in it for a serious effort, and the bidding part of the game is very messy. Everybody has a different bidding system and are usually not very good at communicating what it is.

They say AI has long dominated at Texas Hold'Em poker. "I felt like it could see my hole card." It might have trouble though getting a serious money game against humans. Who would dare?

 

[Hornbein]

This is a great example of 'human nature' spoiling the fun. What goes on at the top of a pastime is hardly at all relevant to the enjoyment of the 99.9% of participants.

Now we can buy a 3D Printer for the home, should that impinge on our enjoyment from 'whittling' and our pottery classes? AI will surely need tight control from the authorities but is has many potential (and extant) benefits for humans. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Apologies: I think I used the same old epithet elsewhere, recently.)

The only whittling I have ever seen was a pair of working pliers someone had made in 1940 or so. His son, elderly in 1999, kept it as an heirloom.

 

[sbrothy]

This is a great example of 'human nature' spoiling the fun. What goes on at the top of a pastime is hardly at all relevant to the enjoyment of the 99.9% of participants.

Now we can buy a 3D Printer for the home, should that impinge on our enjoyment from 'whittling' and our pottery classes? AI will surely need tight control from the authorities but is has many potential (and extant) benefits for humans. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Apologies: I think I used the same old epithet elsewhere, recently.)

I own a 40W laser capable of cutting through 2mm of stainless steel. I feel like it’s added to my opportunities for making stuff. I suspect a 3D printer would do the same. I suspect it depends on how you put these new tools to use.

EDIT: We may already be in agreement. I may have misunderstood your point. Remember I’m a non-native speaker.

 

[oracle99]

Er... https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ai-go-is-not-a-crowd-pleaser.1086239/

There are options for extending Chess. My own Chess engine (like my checkers program) can play with a variable size board. Chess on a 10x8 board retains a lot of the character of 8x8 chess, with the armies still 6 squares apart, but extends the play depth. Increasing the mobility makes it harder for traditional search engines, because the search tree is so much bigger. Strong Human players can see patterns and strategies in a different way. However AI is starting to give computers that ability too.

Incidentally International Draughts (with kings that move like Bishops) is played on a 10x10 board, Canadian Draughts on a 12x12 board, most of the "classic" 2 player games (othello, connect4, gomoku, etc) can be played on bigger boards, I have written versions of these games with that feature.