News Would a Meritocratic Republic Outperform Contemporary Democracies?

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The discussion centers on a proposed meritocratic system where only the top 20% educated individuals would have voting rights, based on standardized tests measuring skills like math and logical reasoning. Proponents argue that this could lead to better decision-making and reduce susceptibility to misleading advertising, while acknowledging the complexities of modern governance. However, significant concerns arise regarding the potential for elitism, the practicality and fairness of administering tests, and the risk of creating a disenfranchised underclass. Critics highlight historical precedents where limited voting rights led to social unrest and question the moral implications of denying rights based on education. Ultimately, the conversation reflects deep skepticism about the sustainability and equity of such a system.
  • #31
First, I am pretty sure Heinlein's world required participation in "federal service" which could but did not have to be military.

Second, going from universal suffrage to a 20% franchise means that the 20% thinks the 80% is "voting wrong", and furthermore, they cannot be convinced, so they must have their right to vote revoked. Seems like a tough sell to me.
 
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  • #32
Ryan_m_b said:
Ever read animal farm? The arguments of the pigs would be relevant here.
Yes, I've read it, however, the copy that I read was in unofficial translation that was illegally printed during last days of communism in my country. So maybe there was a part that I missed. (?)

Ryan_m_b said:
Aside from the fact that democracies are arguably more moral and grant greater social stability how would a meritocratic system even work?
I would be very careful with moral argument.

First we would have to discuss a bit tricky subject of morality and try to take some more culturally neutral viewpoint that would try to take into account ex. divine rights of kings or mandate of heaven. And we would be dangerously far from positivism.

Secondly, I would start from challenging the the morality of democracy by analysing how true were promises given in elections and whether selling products while being so economical with truth wouldn't be considered not only immoral but as fraud under quite a few legal systems.

What possible test could be created that would, without significant failure, highlight who is and isn't a benevelont philosopher king?
But I don't look for a philosopher king. I look for republic where voting rights are granted only to a more intelligent part of population.

Bear in mind that there is no guarantee that people who are intelligent aren't stupid. How many academics have you heard of that are distnquished in their field yet are also superstitious or buy into crackpot/conspiracy theories or are just downright racist/sexist/ageist etc.
Actually, assuming that your point is fighting with crackpot/conspiracy theories or racism/sexism/ageism, then actually moving to such meritocratic system would be according to your goal. Using just education as proxy I've seen stats for my country that the better the education the lower amount of support for conspiracy theories (ex. Russians blowing up plane of our president) and higher tolerance for different races. (ex. accepting relative marrying person of different race)

For sure, there would be some freakish ideas left. But there would be lower percentage of freaks that in general population.
Vanadium 50 said:
Second, going from universal suffrage to a 20% franchise means that the 20% thinks the 80% is "voting wrong", and furthermore, they cannot be convinced, so they must have their right to vote revoked. Seems like a tough sell to me.
Yes, I agree it's tough to sell. However, in times of monarchies, democracy also wasn't easy to sell.
 
  • #33
Czcibor said:
Yes, I've read it, however, the copy that I read was in unofficial translation that was illegally printed during last days of communism in my country. So maybe there was a part that I missed. (?)
Initially all animals are allowed to propose actions and vote on actions at council meetings. However the pigs are more intelligent and tend to be the ones that propose actions. Eventually the pigs argue it would be more efficient if only pigs were allowed to propose actions but all animals can vote. The they change it to just pigs voting. Then they remove the right to view council discussions. Essentially they slide from productive members of a democracy to a ruling oligarch that takes care of itself. A valuable warning over how non democratic systems have fewer checks and balances.
Czcibor said:
I would be very careful with moral argument.

First we would have to discuss a bit tricky subject of morality and try to take some more culturally neutral viewpoint that would try to take into account ex. divine rights of kings or mandate of heaven. And we would be dangerously far from positivism.
You're making it more difficult than this needs to be. By my moral standards democracies are more moral.
Czcibor said:
Secondly, I would start from challenging the the morality of democracy by analysing how true were promises given in elections and whether selling products while being so economical with truth wouldn't be considered not only immoral but as fraud under quite a few legal systems.
You're conflating the issues of individual democratic systems with democracy as a category of government.
Czcibor said:
But I don't look for a philosopher king. I look for republic where voting rights are granted only to a more intelligent part of population.
I was using hyperbole to make the point that there is no good test to choose who deserves to vote.
Czcibor said:
Actually, assuming that your point is fighting with crackpot/conspiracy theories or racism/sexism/ageism, then actually moving to such meritocratic system would be according to your goal. Using just education as proxy I've seen stats for my country that the better the education the lower amount of support for conspiracy theories (ex. Russians blowing up plane of our president) and higher tolerance for different races. (ex. accepting relative marrying person of different race)

For sure, there would be some freakish ideas left. But there would be lower percentage of freaks that in general population.
To me this is an argument for increasing education across the board. Not just allowing the educated to vote because there's no check against the meritocrats becoming oligarchs and gaming the system for their continued advantage, there's no good way of evaluating who should get the vote, people have different moral systems and there's no reason to choose one over the other just because of education (e.g imagine a country where private religious schools have more resources per student and so have a disproportionate amount of power in politics that could be used to impose said religion's moral teachings over the rest of society) and lastly I don't see a way in which any society today can transition to a meritocratic one given that education is not fairly distributed now. Change now and you're likely to get a system wherein wealthy white demographics are more likely to be represented without any check.
 
  • #34
Czcibor said:
I think that I would be within 20%...

Me too! That's why I find it peculiar that I do not understand you at all.

Also, I pretty much despise politics, as I consider following it a waste of time. Though I know people who I consider to be in the 20%, and I sense some of them have the same values that I do. I would very much like to yield my vote to those people, as someone who follows the issues would do a much better voting job than I.

But this strikes me as how our system works anyways. I vote for who I think is the best representative of my values, and they go to Washington. When I sense that someone is a satanic devil worshiper, hell bent on destroying America, then I will donate money to their opposition. I did this for someone in Virginia last year. Virginia is 2700 miles from where I live. I will also bad mouth people I don't like, to death, both here and on Facebook. Hell hath now fury like a woman scorned, nor OmCheeto pissed off.

ps. I'd rather spend 90% of my time studying science, than political science.

pps. And since I'm not following any of your arguments, I don't feel I'm learning anything, nor do I find this entertaining. So I will unsubscribe from this thread, effective, now.
 
  • #35
Ryan_m_b said:
Initially all animals are allowed to propose actions and vote on actions at council meetings. However the pigs are more intelligent and tend to be the ones that propose actions. Eventually the pigs argue it would be more efficient if only pigs were allowed to propose actions but all animals can vote. The they change it to just pigs voting. Then they remove the right to view council discussions. Essentially they slide from productive members of a democracy to a ruling oligarch that takes care of itself. A valuable warning over how non democratic systems have fewer checks and balances.
I admit, you have very original interpretation. The more usual is warning about communism, that starts from nice egalitarian ideas. Taking into account Orwell engagement in Spanish civil war and his experience with being attacked by units backed by the SU, I'm afraid that the second interpretation is closer to his goal.

You're making it more difficult than this needs to be. By my moral standards democracies are more moral.
Why should morality be measured by your standards? And not by mine? Or not by some standards of some other third party? (including third parties that are not necessary alive today)

You're conflating the issues of individual democratic systems with democracy as a category of government.
So your point is that in idealized democracy, which exist as kind of immortal Platonic idea we don't have this issue? So the problem and lack of morality exists only in real life democracies? Well, we might actually be approaching a common ground here.

(My bold)
I was using hyperbole to make the point that there is no good test to choose who deserves to vote.

To me this is an argument for increasing education across the board. Not just allowing the educated to vote because there's no check against the meritocrats becoming oligarchs and gaming the system for their continued advantage, there's no good way of evaluating who should get the vote, people have different moral systems and there's no reason to choose one over the other just because of education (e.g imagine a country where private religious schools have more resources per student and so have a disproportionate amount of power in politics that could be used to impose said religion's moral teachings over the rest of society) and lastly I don't see a way in which any society today can transition to a meritocratic one given that education is not fairly distributed now. Change now and you're likely to get a system wherein wealthy white demographics are more likely to be represented without any check.
You neither have a good test for quite many features including who should get citizenship. I think for example of US using "wet feet, dry feet policy". Also we might wonder why the threshold should be 18 years. (Not mentioning that in a few years ago in Poland Civic Platform suggested lowering the threshold to 16, while in Germany FDP suggested granting the law also to children regardless of their age, however the law would be exercised by their parents) That's purely arbitrary distinction, just you are used to one of possible combination and treat it as granted.

Concerning winning election - actually religious people tend to have more children which also might have impact on election. in Israel Chasids by higher fertility rate are increasing their share in next election, what presumably in long run would be more harmful for Israel than a few Palestinians launching rockets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we use US politics as example and people with higher education as kind of approximation you would actually as result get a landslide election for Obama, and congress with Democrats majority which wouldn't be gridlocked. Doesn't look perfect, but I have to admit, that much better what you have now.

I think that you make one mistake here, you use word: "deserve". The point is not who deserve. The point is who will make the decision that would be most beneficial for common good.

Hypothetically a some random process can be used, as was in ancient Athens. Does the randomly selected people deserve more than those who have lost? No, but anyway could be used if that makes the system more effective. (ancient Athenians were afraid of political parties, thus selecting people by lots from citizens, they hoped to avoid that problem)
 
  • #36
Czcibor said:
I admit, you have very original interpretation. The more usual is warning about communism, that starts from nice egalitarian ideas. Taking into account Orwell engagement in Spanish civil war and his experience with being attacked by units backed by the SU, I'm afraid that the second interpretation is closer to his goal.
How are they mutually exclusive?
Czcibor said:
Why should morality be measured by your standards? And not by mine? Or not by some standards of some other third party? (including third parties that are not necessary alive today)
Perhaps we're having a language problem here. I'm not advocating that my morality should be the one used by all, I made a judgement on the basis of my moral system and you said why that system? Because I'm making the judgement.
Czcibor said:
So your point is that in idealized democracy, which exist as kind of immortal Platonic idea we don't have this issue? So the problem and lack of morality exists only in real life democracies? Well, we might actually be approaching a common ground here.
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying you are bringing in discussions of different democracies into a general discussion of democracy and other systems without acknowledging that.
Czcibor said:
You neither have a good test for quite many features including who should get citizenship. I think for example of US using "wet feet, dry feet policy". Also we might wonder why the threshold should be 18 years. (Not mentioning that in a few years ago in Poland Civic Platform suggested lowering the threshold to 16, while in Germany FDP suggested granting the law also to children regardless of their age, however the law would be exercised by their parents) That's purely arbitrary distinction, just you are used to one of possible combination and treat it as granted.
How to decide citizenship and age restrictions are different issues than who should be allowed t vote. They're related but different so you can't make a comparison like you are doing. Regardless responding to the point "how would a meritocratic system choose who votes" with "other things in life are arbitrary" doesn't address the point.
Czcibor said:
Concerning winning election - actually religious people tend to have more children which also might have impact on election. in Israel Chasids by higher fertility rate are increasing their share in next election, what presumably in long run would be more harmful for Israel than a few Palestinians launching rockets.
So what? I fail to see your point here.
Czcibor said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we use US politics as example and people with higher education as kind of approximation you would actually as result get a landslide election for Obama, and congress with Democrats majority which wouldn't be gridlocked. Doesn't look perfect, but I have to admit, that much better what you have now.
Please provide a reference for this claim. Also this doesn't address the points I've made.
Czcibor said:
I think that you make one mistake here, you use word: "deserve". The point is not who deserve. The point is who will make the decision that would be most beneficial for common good.
So now you're arguing that there is a suitable test for determining who is better at making decisions for the "common good"?
Czcibor said:
Hypothetically a some random process can be used, as was in ancient Athens. Does the randomly selected people deserve more than those who have lost? No, but anyway could be used if that makes the system more effective. (ancient Athenians were afraid of political parties, thus selecting people by lots from citizens, they hoped to avoid that problem)
You haven't addressed my criticisms that I finished my last post with.
 
  • #37
Wow glad you guys mentioned Animal Farm.
I just the other day found my copy - a 1946 printing .
My friends all read it and we are all amazed how relevant it is today in USA.

Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" is interesting read. As i recall he had only contempt for the communists because of their fickleness - they'd align with whoever served their need at the moment. He really disliked the fascists Hitler was backing.
Chapter eight describes his disilusionment with the return of class division to his socialist movement.
I think that's what planted the seeds of Animal Farm, and i think that book is about human nature more than communism. Clearly Napoleon is Stalin and Squealer is Pravda , and the message is 'dont think it can't happen here'.

just my thouhgts.
 
  • #38
jim hardy said:
Clearly Napoleon is Stalin and Squealer is Pravda
Don't forget Snowball as Trotsky
 
  • #39
Ryan_m_b said:
How are they mutually exclusive?
He wrote about communism and you work hard to misinterpret it to fit your point.

Perhaps we're having a language problem here. I'm not advocating that my morality should be the one used by all, I made a judgement on the basis of my moral system and you said why that system? Because I'm making the judgement.
OK, but if that's your private belief why use it as argument that is supposed to convince me?

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying you are bringing in discussions of different democracies into a general discussion of democracy and other systems without acknowledging that.
I brought the subject how democratic process really looks like.

How to decide citizenship and age restrictions are different issues than who should be allowed t vote. They're related but different so you can't make a comparison like you are doing. Regardless responding to the point "how would a meritocratic system choose who votes" with "other things in life are arbitrary" doesn't address the point.

But only citizens of certain age are allowed to vote. That's exactly the problem - who is allowed to vote.

That's merely mentioning "how republic chooses who votes".

So what? I fail to see your point here.
You are outraged that good religious schools (all those evil Jesuits ;) ) theoretically could be able to influence election in such meritocracy, while the fact that varied reproduction rate between religion anyway does influence outcome of election in republic in favour of more fertile religion does not bother you, so I can not consider your argument too seriously.

Please provide a reference for this claim. Also this doesn't address the points I've made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educat...ates#General_attainment_of_degrees.2Fdiplomas
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president/exit-polls
I used M.A and above as approximation of what the top 20% would vote, which covers only 11% of US population.

So now you're arguing that there is a suitable test for determining who is better at making decisions for the "common good"?
Yes, I've been saying that for a while, it's nice that you finally understood that.

Well, I assume that if a person has problem with basic math, then he wouldn't the best person to discuss subject of budget. When a person has problems to find a country on a map, then such person would not be the best at shaping foreign policy.

Or maybe the two above sentences are wrong? And person who don't distinguishing Iran from Iraq can make comparably good decision concerning which to invade?

Yes, that's basic reading, math and test on basic knowledge (at best with some history and economics). I'm not arguing that this is perfect, merely that on average people with knowledge should make more reasonable decision than those without knowledge.
You haven't addressed my criticisms that I finished my last post with.

You mean the fact that that education is not equally distributed in US between races? To be honest I consider that as partially shortfall of US democracy and partially as outcome of inertia. (In the same way as in India Sikhs are still overrepresented in military because so was during British colonial rule)
 
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  • #40
Czcibor said:
He wrote about communism and you work hard to misinterpret it to fit your point.
I'm not misinterpreting it but borrowing its message because it does apply: take away the voting rights of the people and you can sleep walk into an authoritarian nightmare.
Czcibor said:
OK, but if that's your private belief why use it as argument that is supposed to convince me?
Because I think many people would agree with me that democracies are more moral because it is moral to give people the right to have a say in how their country is run.
Czcibor said:
I brought the subject how democratic process really looks like.
There is no one democratic process.
Czcibor said:
So what? I fail to see your point here.
It's quite simple: the fact we have reasons to restrict citizenship and define adulthood are tangential to who deserves the vote. Furthermore you fail to give a good proposal for how to determine who gets to vote.
Czcibor said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educat...ates#General_attainment_of_degrees.2Fdiplomas
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president/exit-polls
I used M.A and above as approximation of what the top 20% would vote, which covers only 11% of US population.
So you are arguing that having a degree means you are in the top 20% of intelligence? I definitely don't agree with that.
Czcibor said:
Yes, I've been saying that for a while, it's nice that you finally understood that
Where exactly have you outlined such a system?
Czcibor said:
Well, I assume that if a person has problem with basic math, then he wouldn't the best person to discuss subject of budget. When a person has problems to find a country on a map, then such person would not be the best at shaping foreign policy.

Or maybe the two above sentences are wrong? And person who don't distinguishing Iran from Iraq can make comparably good decision concerning which to invade?

Yes, that's basic reading, math and test on basic knowledge (at best with some history and economics). I'm not arguing that this is perfect, merely that on average people with knowledge should make more reasonable decision than those without knowledge.
All I'm seeing here is an argument for why people who work in government should be chosen on meritocratic principles. It's all very well and simplistic to say "if you can't count you shouldn't be finance minister" but what criteria would you have for deciding who gets to vote for a party/candidate on financial grounds? Especially as matters like this are not entirely objective. Take for instance the difference in ideology between US libertarians and liberals. It's not always a case of right or wrong.
Czcibor said:
You mean the fact that that education is not equally distributed in US between races? To be honest I consider that as partially shortfall of US democracy and partially as outcome of inertia. (In the same way as in India Sikhs are still overrepresented in military because so was during British colonial rule)
I'm not American so not focusing on the US but speaking generally about the west (though it applies to most nations: education is not evenly distributed). Regardless you again fail to address my point but dance around it: if you advocate that education credentials can show who the top 20% are how will you account for founding inequalities if a meritocratic society was formed from a contemporary western democracy now?
 
  • #41
I can see this going round in circles for a while so why don't we just get stuck into the biggest issue?

1) What criteria do you propose could be used to select this 20%?

2) What arguments do you have to support the notion that the 20% would make things better for the majority of people by the definitions of the majority?
 
  • #42
Because I think many people would agree with me that democracies are more moral because it is moral to give people the right to have a say in how their country is run.
So your point is that contemporary there is such belief? Yes, I agree there is such a belief nowadays. In the same way as there used to be such belief in past concerning monarchies (actually, Montesquieu considered monarchy as more moral than democracy, it sounds cute nowadays; I wouldn't mention Plato because you already mentioned his philosopher kings, so that would be redundant).

So you are arguing that having a degree means you are in the top 20% of intelligence? I definitely don't agree with that.
Well, I don't mind if you don't agree with a statement which I'm not arguing.
You merely asked for any approximate data concerning how potential outlook of such election could look like. So I took the only available data. No such test is applied nowadays.

Where exactly have you outlined such a system?

Starting post:
As the way of measuring that merit should be applied standardized tests, including math, logical thinking, understanding written texts and basic knowledge.
Later I expanded mentioning that such test could be by occasion used at end of secondary school, to make people motivated enough to try to pass it. (but it could be taken also on demand)

All I'm seeing here is an argument for why people who work in government should be chosen on meritocratic principles. It's all very well and simplistic to say "if you can't count you shouldn't be finance minister" but what criteria would you have for deciding who gets to vote for a party/candidate on financial grounds? Especially as matters like this are not entirely objective. Take for instance the difference in ideology between US libertarians and liberals. It's not always a case of right or wrong.
But at election day I have to asses that politician. If I don't understand foreign policy I might consider quite talented diplomat as unpatriotic coward, and vote against him.
I should mention how unpopular was politician (Leszek Balcerowicz) in my country who was responsible for introducing free market reforms and combating hyperinflation - majority of my compatriots expected that such things could have been done painlessly, so he effectively earned a hate week. (His wife even had to use her maiden name, to avoid negative association with him)

Have you seen pools, in which Americans have to describe how according to them the federal budget looks like? You would be impressed how much they believe that their gov gives in foreign aid. ;)
(no, that's not mocking Americans, I doubt that in my country we would get more reasonable answers)

I'm not American so not focusing on the US but speaking generally about the west (though it applies to most nations: education is not evenly distributed). Regardless you again fail to address my point but dance around it: if you advocate that education credentials can show who the top 20% are how will you account for founding inequalities if a meritocratic society was formed from a contemporary western democracy now?
I do not advocate education credentials, but exactly to avoid that - a standardized test. Which inequalities I should account for?

As argument I would like to give from Steven Pinker's book The Better Angels of Our Nature, the arguments that he gave at the end of the book concerning higher intelligence and higher willingness to cooperate, lower likeness to go to war and higher tolerance to others.

(Technical question to you as moderator - it's not a public domain, how should I give a link to that? I feel that I can either risk not backing my claims or even worse giving link to pirate site - I would like to avoid both)
 
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  • #43
New to the argument, decided to jump in here. Though, I agree that the main parties in this argument should attempt to focus on the main points. I wanted to address a few though.

Czcibor said:
So your point is that contemporary there is such belief? Yes, I agree there is such a belief nowadays. In the same way as there used to be such belief in past concerning monarchies (actually, Montesquieu considered monarchy as more moral than democracy, it sounds cute nowadays; I wouldn't mention Plato because you already mentioned his philosopher kings, so that would be redundant).

I don't think this is a question of who thinks what.
It is more moral to allow people the opportunity to:

a) voice their concerns and opinions on matters of state, no matter how educated or politically aware they are.

b) have their voices matter in a tangible way, even if it is to a small extent.

Later I expanded mentioning that such test could be by occasion used at end of secondary school, to make people motivated enough to try to pass it. (but it could be taken also on demand)

Are the learning disabled any less reliable to make decisions for the common good.
Let's not debate mentally handicapped persons as I don't want to open up a can of worms, but those who are in standard level classes yet have difficulty learning and can't pass the test?

Education does not imply utilitarianism. Educated people can be just as arrogant, indecent, uncaring, and selfish as anyone; and many sociopaths and psycopaths are quite educated indeed.

Passing a history exam and learning how to do your ten times tables doesn't necessarily qualify you as a better voter than anyone else.

But at election day I have to asses that politician. If I don't understand foreign policy I might consider quite talented diplomat as unpatriotic coward, and vote against him.

And what makes you think that this test would assure that these people will do their due dilligence? What makes you think that after passing, these people won't just fall back into their political allegiences?

Have you seen pools, in which Americans have to describe how according to them the federal budget look like? You would be impressed how much they believe that their gov gives in foreign aid. ;)

Yea, it's pretty off, and that stems from a lack of understanding of budget allocations. People hear dollar amounts and don't realize that these amount to peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

But how many of those people surveyed fall into your 20%?

I'm willing to bet that not all, or even most, of those people are living in moonshine shacks in West Virginia.

I do not advocate education credentials, but exactly to avoid that - a standardized test. Which inequalities I should account for?

But this is exactly what the biggest issue is. A standardized test means that those who go to wealthier schools with better teachers, better books, better resources, etc. will be much more likely to be accepted into this oligarchical meritocracy than people of lower income. Which, as LisaB pointed out, will allow (not necessitate) the corrupt to further widen the gap between the wealthy and poor through funding cuts and education reforms, etc. and the poor would slowly lose their voice to do anything about it.

With all that said, I would not object to having to pass some sort of test regarding basic foreign politics and geography, economics (basic understanding), our current US (I'm a US citizen, insert any country there) political and budgetary approach, and such to get voting rights.
 
  • #44
William Shockley, James Watson, Charles Darwin, R.L. Moore... Know what, I found a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

So, I disagree with, "higher intelligence means more tolerant and less likely to go to war." For war, it depends on interest. If there is nothing in it, then war is less likely, however, if there is something to gain, it becomes more likely.

I disagree and agree with specific points on the topic. The more literate and reasoned people should be allowed to vote (keeping everything else constant), however those unable to vote should have representatives that speak for their interests, etc... If we discount those unable to vote (I'd probably make it in that bunch if the test is multiple choice), then who will represent us? We would need to rely entirely on the "elite" to consider our interests. When living in a centralized place of like-minded people, you tend to fall into specific outlooks that seem reasonable to everyone that is within the group, however, it is unreasonable to everyone else, thus it turns chaotic later on.
 
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  • #45
Mentalist said:
however those unable to vote should have representatives that speak for their interests, etc... If we discount those unable to vote (I'd probably make it in that bunch if the test is multiple choice), then who will represent us?
So, on one hand you agree a certain group isn't smart enough to vote, but you want this group to be represented. Would you elect this representative? I guess you want this representative to carry weight proportionate to the number of people that can't vote, so as to be fair to them. Wait, you can't vote. :rolleyes:
 
  • #46
I was thinking it would act more like a government union where the employee (in this case, the people unable to vote) don't necessarily elect their representative but the representative votes and debates on their behalf in political matters.
 
  • #47
Mentalist said:
I was thinking it would act more like a government union where the employee (in this case, the people unable to vote) don't necessarily elect their representative but the representative votes and debates on their behalf in political matters.

If we are to even contemplate the merits of this proposition, wouldn't it have to be a fundamental part of this system that all voters are supposed to have the well being of those unable to vote in mind?

If you require representatives to fight for the non-voters, then doesn't that mean that you don't trust the voters to do the responsible thing, thus negating the primary motivation for the system?
 
  • #48
Mentalist said:
I was thinking it would act more like a government union where the employee (in this case, the people unable to vote) don't necessarily elect their representative but the representative votes and debates on their behalf in political matters.
This isn't true, government union employees do elect their representatives.

Standards of conduct provisions, formerly set forth in sec. 18 of EO 11491, have been incorporated into the CSRA under sec. 7120. Similar provisions for labor organizations representing members of the Foreign Service in the Department of State and in other agencies are contained in sec. 1017 of the Foreign Service Act of 1980 (FSA), 22 U.S.C. 4117. Regulations pertaining to these provisions have been issued by the Assistant Secretary for Labor-Management Standards (Assistant Secretary). These regulations incorporate many LMRDA provisions, particularly those related to elections of union officers and to reporting, making them applicable to unions subject to the CSRA or FSA. For example, the regulations include provisions on a bill of rights for union members, on the election of union officers, and on the reporting of union finances.

http://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/compliance/rights_resps.htm
 
  • #49
Mentalist said:
I was thinking it would act more like a government union where the employee (in this case, the people unable to vote) don't necessarily elect their representative but the representative votes and debates on their behalf in political matters.
My bold

Evo said:
This isn't true, government union employees do elect their representatives.

http://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/compliance/rights_resps.htm

And elsewhere on the DoL site:
Professional and other staff members of a union need not be elected if they do not determine policy but are employed only to carry out the union's policy decisions. These persons are subject to the control and direction of the elected officials, and the act does not require such professional or other staff members to be elected.

The act does not require elections for union officials who do not perform executive functions, are not officers under the constitution and bylaws, and are not members of the executive committee or similar governing body of the union.

I'm unaware of any examples in existing unions.
 
  • #50
mheslep said:
My bold



And elsewhere on the DoL site:


I'm unaware of any examples in existing unions.
Did you have a point? Sure, not everyone in the union is elected. In your quote
Professional and other staff members of a union need not be elected if they do not determine policy but are employed only to carry out the union's policy decisions. These persons are subject to the control and direction of the elected officials
Bolding mine.
 
  • #51
I see most people that argue against meritocracy in this thread have arguements against the more extreme form of it, when some parts of the population are shut out from the entire voting process.

However, it seems to me that most of those arguements lose validity if you consider the softer forms of it, i.e. when you have a requirement to vote based on something like a specific education level or a specialized course. In this case everyone has the possiblity to pass the requirements, regardless of what they started as, which means that everyone has the possibility to vote if it's important enough to them.

In this version of it, you never shut anyone out permanently, thus maintaining democracy, but what you gain is that the average voter will make a more informed decision (because I don't think anyone can argue getting educated makes you less informed?) and a more informed decision should never be worse.
 
  • #52
Travis_King said:
I don't think this is a question of who thinks what.
It is more moral to allow people the opportunity to:

a) voice their concerns and opinions on matters of state, no matter how educated or politically aware they are.

b) have their voices matter in a tangible way, even if it is to a small extent.

When a person decides matters of his own life, when makes his own decisions, takes the risk and gains possible benefits - there I indeed see his freedom. When takes part in voting where there is a tiny group - then indeed his views still matters. However, where takes part in election in which millions - he has no effective influence on the final decision (I've seen once calculation for US that is less probable to cast a vote that would affect the outcome of presidential election, then to die in car accident on the way to pools)

When anyway decision concerning your life will be done effectively by someone else, then a question appears - who do you want to make it in your name? Would you prefer a to select at random representative sample from whole your population or only from more educated part?
Are the learning disabled any less reliable to make decisions for the common good.
Let's not debate mentally handicapped persons as I don't want to open up a can of worms, but those who are in standard level classes yet have difficulty learning and can't pass the test?
Can a seriously physically disabled person be a hard line patriot? Can such person be even willing to die for his country? Does it mean that such person would be very useful soldier on the front line?

Education does not imply utilitarianism. Educated people can be just as arrogant, indecent, uncaring, and selfish as anyone; and many sociopaths and psycopaths are quite educated indeed.

Passing a history exam and learning how to do your ten times tables doesn't necessarily qualify you as a better voter than anyone else.

And what makes you think that this test would assure that these people will do their due dilligence? What makes you think that after passing, these people won't just fall back into their political allegiences?
My line of reasoning here is the following:
If a person simply can't do due diligence, than such person wouldn't do that. Assuming that a person is able do to do due diligence, then he would either do that or not, both events have probability above 0. Assuming that I eliminate from sample people who would automatically fail, the overall answer should improve.
The system should be improvement not if there would be no jerks among more educated people, but also when the percentage of jerks among is not higher than in general population.

Concerning erroneous assumption and attempts to adjust that, have you read "The myth of rational voter"?

They tried to adjust what would economist Ph.D. would believe if they had features (ex. income) of average voter.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa594.pdf

(EDIT: That's Cato, so they took it for granted that only more market is the answer for problem they nicely proved in research)
 
  • #53
Czcibor said:
They tried to adjust what would economist Ph.D. would believe if they had features (ex. income) of average voter.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa594.pdf
This is a very bias source that is trying to support the idea that a free market system would be better for everyone but the public are too ignorant to see it.
 
  • #54
Ryan_m_b said:
This is a very bias source that is trying to support the idea that a free market system would be better for everyone but the public are too ignorant to see it.

Czcibor said:
(EDIT: That's Cato, so they took it for granted that only more market is the answer for problem they nicely proved in research)

Yes, so don't follow their conclusion, but merely the way in which they tested how views change with increased knowledge, and even trying to explain that's just as matter of more income failed.
 
  • #55
Czcibor said:
Yes, so don't follow their conclusion, but merely the way in which they tested how views change with increased knowledge, and even trying to explain that's just as matter of more income failed.
Perhaps I've missed it because I've only skimmed but where is the methods section where they explain in detail how they came by the charts they are using? At the moment all they have is some bar charts showing that a group labeled "enlightened public" agree more with economists than the public but I can't see an explanation of what enlightened is, who was in this survey, how many people, discussions of the limitations etc.

What I'm trying to get at is you realize this isn't a peer-reviewed, credible source right? Is woefully limited and biased.
 
  • #56
Ryan_m_b said:
Perhaps I've missed it because I've only skimmed but where is the methods section where they explain in detail how they came by the charts they are using? At the moment all they have is some bar charts showing that a group labeled "enlightened public" agree more with economists than the public but I can't see an explanation of what enlightened is, who was in this survey, how many people, discussions of the limitations etc.

What I'm trying to get at is you realize this isn't a peer-reviewed, credible source right? Is woefully limited and biased.

So your point is that Cato Institute is evil. I understood it.

Quoting the article:
To estimate the beliefs of the enlightened public, I first regressed economic beliefs on respondents’ characteristics, including income, job security, income growth, sex, race, party identification, ideology, education, and “econ” (a dummy variable equal to 1 if the respondent is an economist, and 0 otherwise).
Then, for each equation, I calculated the predicted belief assuming a respondent had the general public’s average income, job security, income growth, sex, race, party identification, and ideology, combined with a PhD in economics
 
  • #57
Czcibor said:
So your point is that Cato Institute is evil. I understood it.
No...are you trying to troll? If not why are you deliberately misinterpreting what I've said?
Czcibor said:
Quoting the article:
Where does that quote explain what determines that someone is enlightened?
 
  • #58
Ryan_m_b said:
No...are you trying to troll? If not why are you deliberately misinterpreting what I've said?
No, I'm just a bit annoyed that you put impressively high effort into discrediting the article, while relatively limited into just reading it (and maybe then showing its shortcomings).

Where does that quote explain what determines that someone is enlightened?
It simply explains how opinion of hypothetical "enlightened public" is calculated, based on regression model.
 
  • #59
Czcibor said:
No, I'm just a bit annoyed that you put impressively high effort into discrediting the article, while relatively limited into just reading it (and maybe then showing its shortcomings).
Lol that wasn't impressively high effort and considering I started my comment with a clarification your hyperbole and annoyance seem unnecessary
Czcibor said:
It simply explains how opinion of hypothetical "enlightened public" is calculated, based on regression model.
Do you not see anything wrong with this? Like how there is no real data being discussed?
 
  • #60
Ryan_m_b said:
Do you not see anything wrong with this? Like how there is no real data being discussed?
What do you mean by real data? You want to see his raw data and check whether regression was done correctly?
 

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