I Would discovery of a galaxy without dark matter disprove MOND?

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The discussion centers on whether the discovery of a galaxy devoid of dark matter would disprove Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND). While some argue that even one such galaxy could challenge MOND, proponents suggest that external gravitational influences could explain its behavior. The quality and context of measurements are crucial, as galaxies in non-equilibrium states or affected by nearby masses complicate interpretations. A truly isolated galaxy in equilibrium would present a stronger case against MOND, but even then, the possibility of unseen mass or observational errors remains. Ultimately, distinguishing between MOND and the Lambda Cold Dark Matter (LCDM) model requires careful analysis of dark matter distribution in low surface brightness galaxies.
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I’ve been reading about LCDM and MOND recently. And there have been reports of galaxies with little dark matter. I know the lack of dark matter in NGC1052-DF2 was shown not true afterwards. But if such a galaxy without dark matter is actually discovered, would this be sufficient to disprove MOND?
 
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I don't think this can be answered in the abstract. How many examples? How well measured are they? How far do they deviate from the MOND prediction? What signs are there for previous interactions with other galaxies? Are these galaxies typical or is there some other feature that makes them unusual? How many estimates for the DM component are there and do they agree?

And so on and so on.
 
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lamdar said:
I’ve been reading about LCDM and MOND recently. And there have been reports of galaxies with little dark matter. I know the lack of dark matter in NGC1052-DF2 was shown not true afterwards. But if such a galaxy without dark matter is actually discovered, would this be sufficient to disprove MOND?
There was a thread about this not that long ago. On the face of it yes - even a single galaxy that obeys the default Newtonian dynamics would disprove MOND. The proponents of MOND, however, believe that secondary MOND effects from neighbouring galaxies may explain this.

You could do a bit of research on this online. I only recall the gist of the argument.
 
PeroK said:
There was a thread about this not that long ago.
Is it maybe in the "Similar Threads" list at the bottom of this page?
 
I can't immediately see the thread, but the term I believe was "external field effect". That explains the Newtonian rotation curve of a galaxy with no dark matter.
 
Yes. IIUC, MOND says that there's non-Newtonian behaviour when the modulus of the Newtonian acceleration would be below a certain value. Much of the gravitational interaction between stars in a galaxy is below this value, so galaxy rotation curves are non-Newtonian. But if there's a large mass nearby a galaxy it can push the gravitational acceleration above that critical value across the whole galaxy. So MOND proponents say you can get Newtonian behaviour (what a dark matter proponent would call a dark matter free galaxy) in rare circumstances with MOND.
 
... a modified MOND, perhaps!
 
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There's also the point V50 makes about the quality of evidence. One measurement being enough to falsify a theory is an idealisation. It has to be one measurement by skilled observers with high confidence that possible measurement errors have been controlled and possible confounding factors eliminated. Otherwise we'd falsify Newtonian gravity every time someone did a parachute jump.
 
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Ibix said:
There's also the point V50 makes about the quality of evidence. One measurement being enough to falsify a theory is an idealisation. It has to be one measurement by skilled observers with high confidence that possible measurement errors have been controlled and possible confounding factors eliminated. Otherwise we'd falsify Newtonian gravity every time someone did a parachute jump.
Not if the parachute didn't open!
 
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PeroK said:
Not if the parachute didn't open!
Terminal velocity for a human isn't very high (Wikipedia says 55-90m/s depending on whether you spread out or curl up), so even without a working chute you don't fall according to a naive application of Newtonian gravity. And we're way off topic here!
 
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<splat!>

While data quality is part of what I was commenting on, there's also statistics. If you see a galaxy that has only a 0.1% of satisfying the null hypothesis, whatever that may be, you would draw different conclusions if you saw it after 5, 1000 or 1 000 000 galaxies.
 
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lamdar said:
I’ve been reading about LCDM and MOND recently. And there have been reports of galaxies with little dark matter. I know the lack of dark matter in NGC1052-DF2 was shown not true afterwards. But if such a galaxy without dark matter is actually discovered, would this be sufficient to disprove MOND?
Dark matter has not been discovered, it is predicted, there is a difference.
 
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A fundamental acceleration of about 10^-10 m/s² plays a decisive role in MOND. According to MOND, deviations should occur from this value and below. Now it is the case that stars not only experience an acceleration due to rotation within the galaxy, but also due to rotation in a galaxy cluster and even larger structures. MOND should actually also take this into account when using this fundamental acceleration. As far as I can see, however, there are no investigations into the extent to which the direction of rotation of the galaxy within its galaxy cluster plays a role in whether the rotation curve deviates from Newton/Einstein. If anyone does know of such a study, please feel free to post it.
 
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lamdar said:
I’ve been reading about LCDM and MOND recently. And there have been reports of galaxies with little dark matter. I know the lack of dark matter in NGC1052-DF2 was shown not true afterwards. But if such a galaxy without dark matter is actually discovered, would this be sufficient to disprove MOND?
MOND predicts that galaxies will lack dark matter phenomena is they are either:

(1) in an area where there is a likely external field effect from another nearby galaxy (which is the case in NGC1052-DF2 see Pieter van Dokkum, et al., "The distance to NGC1042 in the context of its proposed association with the dark matter-deficient galaxies NGC1052-DF2 and NGC1052-DF4" (February 5, 2019) (To appear in RNAAS), and here), or

(2) when it is sufficiently dense and compact that none of the stars are in the low gravitational acceleration MOND regime (inferred dark matter frequencies are lowest in compact, close to spherical, elliptical galaxies, and in the central regions of galaxies such as the central bulges of spiral galaxies).

Also, the usual way of detecting dark matter phenomena, in both LCDM and MOND assume gravitationally bound systems that are in equilibrium. If a galaxy is not in an equilibrium state (e.g., after a recent collision with another galaxy), the kinetic energy and atypical gravitational pulls arising from the collision make it much, much harder to determine what kind of dark matter distributions and/or MOND effects are at work from the observed dynamics. Essentially, something like a galaxy collision that puts a galaxy into a non-equilibrium state inserts so much noise into the system that the baseline gravitational signal you want to analyze becomes too difficult to separate out with current instruments and analysis tools.

To provide a serious challenge to MOND the "no dark matter" galaxy would need to be isolated from other external gravitational fields (e.g. in a "cosmic void"), diffuse, and in a near equilibrium state.

Even then, if the observation is a rare outlier even for those conditions, one might suspect an invisible mass (e.g. an isolated supermassive black hole) that creates an external field effect, or a systemic error in the observation (something that is particularly a concern at certain galaxy inclinations relative to our line of sight).

In the LCDM paradigm, no dark matter galaxies are explained by tidal stripping of dark matter from the no dark matter galaxy to a nearby galaxy, so a no dark matter galaxy that is diffuse, in isolation or a cosmic void, that is in equilibrium, also presents an equal problem for the LCDM paradigm.

One way of distinguishing MOND from the LCDM paradigm is to look at the distribution of inferred dark matter relative to ordinary matter in low surface brightness galaxies (which are diffuse).

MOND would predict a very strongly bimodal distribution with the vast majority of such galaxies either having extreme dark matter-like phenomena, or none at all (consistent with observations to date), with only a very small number of them in the intermediate transition range between systems with an external field effect and those without one.

In contrast, in LCDM, you would expect a far larger proportion of low surface brightness galaxies to have intermediate levels of inferred dark matter, since the tidal stripping of all dark matter from such galaxies could take a long time and many would be observed with that process only partially complete. There is not currently significant observational evidence of large numbers of galaxies that are partially dark matter deficient.
 
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