Zero gravity in spiral galaxy center?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the gravitational dynamics at the center of spiral galaxies, particularly in relation to the concept of low pressure in vortex systems and its implications for gravity. Participants explore how these ideas might relate to supermassive black holes (SMBHs) and the behavior of matter in their vicinity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if the center of a spiral galaxy behaves like a vortex with low pressure, an object at the center might experience zero net gravity due to equal forces from surrounding mass.
  • Another participant counters that while a body at the center would not be pulled in any direction, the analogy to vortices is limited, as galaxies do not exhibit the same fluid dynamics.
  • It is noted that only gas in a galaxy can be treated as a fluid, while stars and dark matter are considered collisionless, complicating the fluid model application.
  • Participants discuss the necessity for objects to lose angular momentum to fall into a SMBH, mentioning three-body interactions and the formation of accretion disks as mechanisms for this process.
  • There is a claim that angular momentum absorbed by a black hole increases its spin, but this is clarified to apply only to matter that actually falls into the black hole.
  • One participant emphasizes that while matter may orbit the black hole due to angular momentum, it can eventually form an unstable accretion disk, leading to material falling into the SMBH.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of fluid dynamics to galaxies and the implications for gravitational behavior at the centers of galaxies. There is no consensus on the validity of the vortex analogy or the mechanisms by which matter interacts with SMBHs.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in applying fluid dynamics to galaxies, noting the collisionless nature of stars and dark matter. The discussion also reflects uncertainty regarding the stability of accretion disks and the processes involved in angular momentum transfer.

protonic_mass
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In many vortex's, the center has low pressure, from the center of a stirring cup of tea to the centere of a hurricane or storm system. I'm trying to crudely model how this might apply to the center of a spiral galaxy. If the behavior is similar, and the center has a low pressure void, wouldn't an object in the middle experience zero net gravity as it would be equally acted upon by the surrounding mass?

That being the case, how could the model fit in a black hole which is super massive?
 
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Vortices and hurricanes are both phenomena arising from fluid mechanics They have nothing in common with galaxies.

protonic_mass said:
...the center has a low pressure void, ...
Pressure does not apply to galaxies.
protonic_mass said:
...wouldn't an object in the middle experience zero net gravity as it would be equally acted upon by the surrounding mass?

You are correct inasmuch as a body at the centre of the galaxy would not be pulled in any direction, whereas a body on the edge of the galaxy would be pulled toward the centre, but that's about where the similarities end.
 
Only the gas in a galaxy can be reasonably treated as a fluid. The stars are essentially collisionless, so the fluid model doesn't apply. In most models, dark matter is also a collisionless particle, so it isn't a fluid either.

protonic_mass said:
That being the case, how could the model fit in a black hole which is super massive?

Mass segregation and multi-body interactions can drive more massive objects towards the center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_segregation

For something to fall into the SMBH, it needs to first get rid of angular momentum. Three body interactions can accomplish this. Or, an accretion disk can form around the SMBH, and other processes can transfer the angular momentum outwards.
 
Calion said:
For something to fall into the SMBH, it needs to first get rid of angular momentum. Three body interactions can accomplish this. Or, an accretion disk can form around the SMBH, and other processes can transfer the angular momentum outwards.

I thought that whatever angular momentum gets eaten by the BH, is converted into an increased spin of the BH itself.
 
ellipsis said:
I thought that whatever angular momentum gets eaten by the BH, is converted into an increased spin of the BH itself.

That's true if the stuff makes it into the black hole. I was referring to stuff outside of the black hole. Since the stuff (gas, stars, etc) probably isn't falling straight towards the black hole, it will have some angular momentum and go into orbit around the black hole, rather than falling in. However, three body interactions (say, the SMBH, and two stars) can transfer angular momentum, leading to one object falling in.
 
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Calion said:
it will have some angular momentum and go into orbit around the black hole, rather than falling in.
It forms an accretion disk, yes, but it is not stable. The gas and dust will compact and collide, giving off huge amounts radiation, and causing the material to eventually fall into the SMBH.

It is generally believed that most BHs are not naked. Most have an accretion disk of matter:
dnews-files-2013-04-black-hole-dance-of-doom-jpg.jpg
 

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