ZFC and the Axiom of Foundation

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Math Amateur
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Axiom Zfc
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the Axiom of Foundation in set theory, particularly within the context of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with the Axiom of Choice (ZFC). Participants explore its implications, provide examples, and seek clarification on specific points related to the axiom's application and interpretation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter expresses confusion regarding the Axiom of Foundation and requests clarification on its meaning and application, particularly in relation to his example involving the set $$a = \{1, 2, 3\}$$.
  • One participant explains that for a simple set $$A = \{a\}$$, the axiom implies that there exists an element of $$A$$ that is disjoint from $$A$$, leading to the conclusion that $$a \not\in a$$.
  • This participant argues that the Axiom of Foundation prevents the existence of sets that contain themselves, such as $$S = \{S, \{S, \{S, \dots\}\}\}$$, emphasizing the principle of well-foundedness.
  • Another participant points out that Peter is conflating the number $$1$$ with the set $$\{1\}$$, clarifying that $$1 \cap a = \emptyset$$ because $$0 \not\in a$$.
  • Peter seeks further clarification on the reasoning behind the assertion that $$1 \cap a = \emptyset$$ is related to $$0 \not\in a$$, indicating a need for deeper understanding.
  • A later reply states that as a set, $$1$$ is defined as $$\{0\}$$, which may contribute to the confusion regarding the relationship between numbers and sets.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach a consensus on the interpretation of the Axiom of Foundation or the implications of Peter's example. There are competing views on the nature of sets and their elements, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion, particularly regarding the assumptions made about the nature of numbers as sets and the definitions involved in set membership. The relationship between elements and their containing sets is also a point of contention.

Math Amateur
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,920
Reaction score
48
I am reading Micheal Searcoid's book: Elements of Abstract Analysis ( Springer Undergraduate Mathematics Series) ...

I am currently focussed on Searcoid's treatment of ZFC in Chapter 1: Sets ...

I am struggling to attain a full understanding of the Axiom of Foundation which reads as shown below:https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/5072Can someone explain this Axiom and give some simple examples ...

I am perplexed by my own example ... as follows ...

Consider the set $$a = \{ 1, 2, 3 \}$$

[Note that $$1, 2, 3$$ are sets - previous post by Deveno ... ]

Now $$1 \cup a = 1 $$

and $$2 \cup a = 2$$

and $$3 \cup a = 3$$

... ? ... what is the member of a which is disjoint from a ...

Can someone clarify this issue and explain how the Axiom works ...

Hope someone can help ..

Peter
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Let's look at a very simple set:

$A = \{a\}$.

Since $a \in A$, the axiom applies, because $A$ is non-empty. So we have an element of $A$ which is disjoint from $A$. Well, the only element to be found is $a$. So:

$a \cap A = \emptyset$. Let's write this a bit differently:

$a \cap \{a\} = \emptyset$.

I claim this means $a \not\in a$.

For suppose we had $a \in a$. Since $a \in A$, this would mean $a$ and $A$ have a common element, $a$. But this violates:

$a \cap A = \emptyset$.

The purpose of this, is to establish that there is no such set as:

$S = \{S,\{S,\{S,\dots,\}\}\}$

in other words "the buck stops somewhere" (this principle is called "foundation" or "well-founded-ness").

It establishes that $a$ and $\{a\}$ are always *distinct* sets. This distinction is often glossed over in analysis, where the real number $x$, and the singleton subset $\{x\}$ are often conflated (by such vague language such as "consider the point $x$").

Interestingly enough, if $\phi(x)$ is the predicate; $x \not\in x$, we see that $\phi(x)$ is true for any non-empty set $x$.

So if the collection of all sets was a set, it would be a Russell set, whose very existence negates itself. This contradiction shows the collection of all sets is not a set.

As for your example, you are confusing $1$ with $\{1\}$. For example:

$\{1\} \cap a = \{1\}$, but:

$1 \cap a = \emptyset$ (since $0 \not\in a$).
 
Deveno said:
Let's look at a very simple set:

$A = \{a\}$.

Since $a \in A$, the axiom applies, because $A$ is non-empty. So we have an element of $A$ which is disjoint from $A$. Well, the only element to be found is $a$. So:

$a \cap A = \emptyset$. Let's write this a bit differently:

$a \cap \{a\} = \emptyset$.

I claim this means $a \not\in a$.

For suppose we had $a \in a$. Since $a \in A$, this would mean $a$ and $A$ have a common element, $a$. But this violates:

$a \cap A = \emptyset$.

The purpose of this, is to establish that there is no such set as:

$S = \{S,\{S,\{S,\dots,\}\}\}$

in other words "the buck stops somewhere" (this principle is called "foundation" or "well-founded-ness").

It establishes that $a$ and $\{a\}$ are always *distinct* sets. This distinction is often glossed over in analysis, where the real number $x$, and the singleton subset $\{x\}$ are often conflated (by such vague language such as "consider the point $x$").

Interestingly enough, if $\phi(x)$ is the predicate; $x \not\in x$, we see that $\phi(x)$ is true for any non-empty set $x$.

So if the collection of all sets was a set, it would be a Russell set, whose very existence negates itself. This contradiction shows the collection of all sets is not a set.

As for your example, you are confusing $1$ with $\{1\}$. For example:

$\{1\} \cap a = \{1\}$, but:

$1 \cap a = \emptyset$ (since $0 \not\in a$).
Hi Deveno ... thanks for the help ...

Still reflecting on your post ...

But just one quick question ... ...

... you write ...

" ... As for your example, you are confusing $1$ with $\{1\}$. For example:

$\{1\} \cap a = \{1\}$, but:

$1 \cap a = \emptyset$ (since $0 \not\in a$). ..."

I do not follow your reasoning in arguing that $1 \cap a = \emptyset$ because $0 \not\in a$ ... can you explain this further ... how exactly does the fact that $0 \not\in a$ imply that $1 \cap a = \emptyset$ ...

Hope you can clarify and explain this issue ...

Peter
 
As a set, $1 = \{0\}$.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
14
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K