Where Does the Energy for the Expanding Universe Come From?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the source of energy for the expanding universe, exploring concepts related to spacetime geometry, dark energy, and the implications of General Relativity on energy conservation. Participants examine whether an energy source is necessary for expansion and how geometry influences the motion of matter in the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of an energy source for the expansion of the universe, suggesting that it may be a result of the geometry of spacetime rather than a force requiring energy.
  • One participant proposes that the expansion could be related to the decay of the inflaton field and the de Sitter-like expansion during inflation, linking geometry to the movement of matter.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the relationship between the constant energy density of space and the increasing total amount of dark energy, questioning the source of this additional dark energy.
  • Some participants reference insights from Sean Carroll regarding energy conservation in General Relativity, noting that energy is not conserved when the space through which particles move is changing.
  • There is acknowledgment of the complexity of 4-D geometry and its implications for understanding the expansion of the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether an energy source is required for the universe's expansion, with some arguing against the necessity of such a source while others seek to understand the implications of dark energy and spacetime geometry. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of General Relativity and the complexities of spacetime geometry, indicating that their arguments may depend on nuanced interpretations of energy and its conservation.

KurtLudwig
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What is the source of the energy needed by the ever expanding space-time? It could not be baryonic matter, since it accounts for only 4%. It could not be radiation, since it accounts for only 0.008%. Is it dark matter being converted? Is it quantum fluctuations?
Kurt Ludwig
 
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The universe doesn’t need an energy source to expand.
 
KurtLudwig said:
What is the source of the energy needed by the ever expanding space-time?

There doesn't need to be a source or expenditure of energy. Instead it is the result of the particular geometry of spacetime. Don't interpret the expansion of space as a process involving forces and acceleration as you and I know it from our everday lives (these do require energy). A ball launched out into intergalactic space will recede from us with an increasing velocity over time, but it itself will never experience any acceleration (as measured by an accelerometer). Nor would we. The only known way for our recession velocities to increase without expending energy is for the underlying geometry of spacetime to be such that this happens.

Unfortunately 4-D geometry is rather complicated and non-intuitive, so it may not make any sense right now. I wish I understood it better and could do a better job at explaining it.
 
Drakkith said:
Unfortunately 4-D geometry is rather complicated and non-intuitive, so it may not make any sense right now. I wish I understood it better and could do a better job at explaining it.
Can one boil down the geometry argument saying that matter falls away from each other (if not gravitationally bound) since the decay of the inflaton field. The reason for this is the de Sitter like expansion during inflation which follows from the Friedmann equation.But how is the geometry argument connected with such kind of reasoning?
In my opinion The Meaning of Einstein’s Equation provides good insights why things are moving apart from each other.
 
timmdeeg said:
But how is the geometry argument connected with such kind of reasoning?

My understanding is that it is because matter 'falling away from each other' happens because of geometry. As in, in the absence of forces the geometry of spacetime at the largest scales makes geodesics move away from each other in space. But I admit my knowledge of the details of GR is limited. Hopefully I haven't strung together a bunch of words that end up meaning nothing. :wink:
 
I still do nor fully understand the following: Space is expanding, but its energy density stays constant. It follows that the total amount of dark energy is increasing. Where does this additional dark energy come from? Kurt Ludwig
 
Very interesting insights by Sean Carroll. When the space through which particles move is changing, the total energy of those particles is not conserved. Energy is not conserved in General Relativity. (I am currently reading Sean Carroll's book "The Big Picture.") Kurt Ludwig
 
KurtLudwig said:
Very interesting insights by Sean Carroll. When the space through which particles move is changing, the total energy of those particles is not conserved. Energy is not conserved in General Relativity. (I am currently reading Sean Carroll's book "The Big Picture.") Kurt Ludwig
That statement depends on your notion of energy, which is tricky in GR.
 

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