82-year-old who claims he has not had any food or water

[rtved]

Hm.

I am going to go without food or water, but apparently I can't live without bathing or gargling...


OK, now the experiment has been compromised.

Well, there is a problem with the information regarding water access for the entire 15 days study.The dailymail link nor the other mainstream sources doesn't mention anything about bathing.

If it is confirmed that he was allowed to bathe from 6th day onwards the claim for No water contact cannot be maintained for the entire 15 day study.

If on the other hand the original protocol of 2003 is maintained where there is no bathing and only gargling with 100 ml water is allowed which was collected after use, then the experiment was not compromised as far as access to water is concerned.

 

[stevenb]

If on the other hand the original protocol of 2003 is maintained where there is no bathing and only gargling with 100 ml water is allowed which was collected after use, then the experiment was not compromised as far as access to water is concerned.

Apparently, you believe a good magician could not figure out how to swap urine with gargled water. I happen to believe this is an achievable trick and so it does compromise the experiment.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Hm.

I am going to go without food or water, but apparently I can't live without bathing or gargling...


OK, now the experiment has been compromised.

I could hug you DaveC, but I am too macho for that. ;)

 

[rtved]

Apparently, you believe a good magician could not figure out how to swap urine with gargled water. I happen to believe this is an achievable trick and so it does compromise the experiment.

I admit that is has not occurred to me.Yes, it might be possible for a good magician if there are no Highspeed cameras to capture the entire gargling exercise.

 

[ideasrule]

How can anything except the most dilute urine ever be mistaken for water?

 

[DaveC426913]

How can anything except the most dilute urine ever be mistaken for water?

Ah but mistaken by whom? Who will be checking?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

This is a load of steaming turd... can we move on now? The need to prove is on the holy man, and that is already tainted. Game over.

 

[stevenb]

How can anything except the most dilute urine ever be mistaken for water?

Not clear water, but gargled up spit water with bubbles clouding the mixture. Would you be willing to try and tell the difference? There is no statement that the liquid was analyzed, only measured (I assume by weight and/or volume).

Let's ask another question. How could such an impossible claim ever be mistaken for a real possibility? Let's compare: urine mistaken for water, versus magic is scientific. Sure, maybe neither is actually the case here; but, which is more plausible.

The bottom line is that we are not there to see exactly what happened. So, why should we ignore a multitude of very possible, but mundane, explanations in favor of one highly improbable explanation? It's just not logical.

Even if we were there to analyze everything and were satisfied with what we saw, is it more logical to assume that magic exists or that we are fallible and were, in fact, fooled?

 

[zomgwtf]

Well I am highly skeptical of this hospital and it's findings. 15 days without food, no problem. 15 days without food or water... with absolutely NO changes... I want it independently verified.

While I do not believe this is something that a hospital should take any part in I do think this man should be sent to my house so I can padlock him in an empty warehouse room for a month. Or atleast he should be sent to a reputable lab so scientific studies can be done by scientists.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sounds like an obvious candidate for Randi's Challenge. Of course, that wouldn't be scientific evidence, but he could either pocket the money or give it to his favorite charity; assuming that he can really do it. At this point I easily expect fraud.

Is he willing to duplicate this feat for other academic institutions? That is the obvious test at this point.

 

[rtved]

While it is possible for a skilled magician to switch gargled water with urine, it cannot be mistaken for water unless the the one who collects the gargled water is part of the trickery.

 

[Evo]

While it is possible for a skilled magician to switch gargled water with urine, it cannot be mistaken for water unless the the one who collects the gargled water is part of the trickery.

People have been known to drink their own urine to survive.

Did they move the cameras from his bedroom to where he bathed? Did they measure the bathing water? How easy would it be to cup your hands filled with water and bring it up to your face to wash and drink it?

 

[stevenb]

While it is possible for a skilled magician to switch gargled water with urine, it cannot be mistaken for water unless the the one who collects the gargled water is part of the trickery.

A magician's trick needs the perception that one step is a "cannot". An assistant is one method as you say, but it is not the only method. The color and the smell are the problems in your mind I assume. Magicians have dealt with far more difficult challanges than those.

 

[Galteeth]

Maybe he's a mutant.

 

[pallidin]

Magicians have dealt with far more difficult challanges than those.

Nice!

 

[pallidin]

"Scientific" reports from ASIA are suspect from the beginning.

 

[WiFO215]

"Scientific" reports from ASIA are suspect from the beginning.

Don't say that. It's not right.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Don't say that. It's not right.

I agree. Statements like that require supporting evidence.

 

[stevenb]

"Scientific" reports from ASIA are suspect from the beginning.

We could say that scientific reports from anyplace and anyone are suspect. That's just part of the scientific method. Every report requires independent verification before it can be accepted.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

We could say that scientific reports from anyplace and anyone are suspect. That's just part of the scientific method. Every report requires independent verification before it can be accepted.

Yes, one must use knowledge of other sciences to make inference. We know of thermodynamics, an accepted theory, and this would contradict "no food and water". Remember that the man claims this is for 70 YEARS, and he is just proving this now. That is suspect, the region does not matter. India has questionable science, but is it more than the question you raise around Tuskegee, or MK ULTRA of the CIA? All countries spend money on blue sky research.

 

[JRDunassigned]

Without having read all of the posts - I'm sure that least 75% of them are genuinely good and will visit the remaining 7 pages a.s.a.p., it seems to me that if the Indian military really expected something to come from this, they wouldn't have allowed it to become so public.

What do you think?

 

[phyzmatix]

...it seems to me that if the Indian military really expected something to come from this, they wouldn't have allowed it to become so public.

What do you think?

That's a highly speculative point of view, but I can see potential in it. No way to know that for sure though.

 

[stevenb]

... seems to me that if the Indian military really expected something to come from this, they wouldn't have allowed it to become so public.

What do you think?

I think you make a good point.

Consider the benefit of being able to convince your enemy that your military can go years without food and water, even if it's not true. Propaganda is not something you keep secret.

I can't imagine any group of soldiers being that gullible, but people believe all kinds of things when religion is part of the mix.

 

[pallidin]

For an active, living human to continue functioning without any water intake for even a month is biologically impossible.

The following is from: http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/body+water+loss

Water makes up 60–70% of the human body, or about 40 l/70 pt, of which 25 l/53 pt are inside the cells and 15 l/26 pt outside (12 l/21 pt in tissue fluid, and 3 l/5 pt in blood plasma). A loss of 4 l/7 pt may cause hallucinations; a loss of 8–10 l/14–18 pt may cause death. About 1.5 l/2.6 pt a day are lost through breathing, sweating, and in faeces, and the additional amount lost in urine is the amount needed to keep the balance between input and output. In temperate climates, people cannot survive more than five or six days without water; this is reduced to two or three days in a hot environment.

 

[DaveC426913]

For an active, living human to continue functioning without any water intake for even a month is biologically impossible.

We know that. But simply put, (bona fide) empirical evidence trumps our preconceptions about what's impossible. Relying on things we already "know" simply doesn't cut it in the face of an experiment in-progress.

Again, I'd still put my money on fraud, but there is no closing this case until and unless the results of the experiment are scrutinized.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

We know that. But simply put, (bona fide) empirical evidence trumps our preconceptions about what's impossible. Relying on things we already "know" simply doesn't cut it in the face of an experiment in-progress.

Again, I'd still put my money on fraud, but there is no closing this case until and unless the results of the experiment are scrutinized.

The results are already tainted, so... we're back to square 1. In this, best of all possible worlds, we cannot always be logical positivists. There is strong evidence that this would require breaking major accepted physical laws, so we must accept that this is mystical, or not. If this is a test of mystical fortitude, but only has the TRAPPINGS of science, we do not have to take it seriously.

Show me the imaging of his miraculous anatomy, for the first step, then no water for bathing. We do not apply scientific method of proof to a carnival trick that is couched in organized fraud and absurdities.

 

[DaveC426913]

The results are already tainted, so...

You do not know that, though it's a good bet.

Show me the imaging of his miraculous anatomy...

No. Lack of evidence of a miraculous anatomy does not invalidate the results of an experiment.

 

[pallidin]

Again, I'd still put my money on fraud, but there is no closing this case until and unless the results of the experiment are scrutinized.

I'll close the case right now.

There is ZERO scientific evidence or even ANY precedence for this event.

It is a hoax. Plain and simple.

 

[devassocx]

I read the article...very humorous that anyone would take it seriously.

Back in the days of black&white tv there was some show here in So. CA. where one of
the guests was the leader of a sect called 'Breathetarians' (sp?). The claim was that
they also didn't need to eat. There was enough energy in the air to sustain one's body.

Then one of the followers ratted the leader out by claiming he saw him down a dish
of ice cream. The leader strongly denied this of course.

I guess the world is full of these kinds of folks.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

You do not know that, though it's a good bet.

He had access to water game over.

No. Lack of evidence of a miraculous anatomy does not invalidate the results of an experiment.[/QUOTE]

It does if you accept thermodynamics and don't believe in magic.

 

[stevenb]

No. Lack of evidence of a miraculous anatomy does not invalidate the results of an experiment.

Yes it does, especially when taken in context of the full story.

Science is not just about identifying new phenomena. It's also about identifying cause and effect and understanding the mechanisms by which unusual effects occur. Ordinary anatomy is not scientifically consistent with the claim.

Now, if you want to take the point of view that this is an example of real magic, or divine intervention, that's fine, but then don't call it science and talk about scientific methods and protocols etc. There is no basis to assume that science is the right tool for that job.

Most of us understand this case for what it is, and it is much more than a "good bet" that this is a case of fraud.

 

[leroyjenkens]

I just saw this video of James Randi talking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0u6eJB9GLY

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I just saw this video of James Randi talking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0u6eJB9GLY

James Randi is god, and his test is so crushing for fantastic junk. Thanks for the video.

 

[stevenb]

James Randi is god.

Hey, if you can prove that. This god will give you a million dollars.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Hey, if you can prove that. This god will give you a million dollars.

True, he is a generous divinity

 

[DaveC426913]

Science is ... also about identifying cause and effect and understanding the mechanisms by which unusual effects occur.

Absolutely. And identifying cause and effect mechanisms would come immediately after identifying if there's something interesting to investigate.

Look, I'm not suggesting this isn't a fraud, I'm simply suggesting that y'all are behaving religiously in your convictions. You're not being dispassionate. The whole point of being a rational science-minded person is to allow a case to be made despite your personal beliefs, instead of shutting it down because you disagree with it. Otherwise we stifle discoveries.

I think you guys are more interested in being right than you are in being rational.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Absolutely. And identifying cause and effect mechanisms would come immediately after identifying if there's something interesting to investigate.

Look, I'm not suggesting this isn't a fraud, I'm simply suggesting that y'all are behaving religiously in your convictions. You're not being dispassionate. The whole point of being a rational science-minded person is to allow a case to be made despite your personal beliefs, instead of shutting it down because you disagree with it. Otherwise we stifle discoveries.

I think you guys are more interested in being right than you are in being rational.

There is dispassionate, but there is also appropriate standard for a given situation. Who would not like to discover a medical miracle? It is not wanting, it is that a man without water and food violates many rigorously verified laws of physics. This extraordinary claim requires more evidence and rigor than is present in this "study".

 

[stevenb]

I think you guys are more interested in being right than you are in being rational.

Nope. We are right because we ARE being rational. Scientific questions must meet a minimal level of worthiness before they should even be considered. This claim is just nonsense from the starting line. This has been demonstrated with a tremendous amount of rational analysis right in this thread and much more than that in our minds (which you don't give us credit for), yet you just ignore it all and just say "keep an open mind". How long do you intend on keeping your mind open on this irrational claim? How much money and time is nonsense worthy of?

 

[pallidin]

Good post stevenb.
I agree with you 100%

Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that this threaded wasn't closed a long time ago.
The issue is so far below scientific rationality that it belongs in the category of "absurd"

 

[Gokul43201]

I too believe this "holy man" has demonstrated nothing yet, but agree with much of the sentiment conveyed by Dave.

It is not wanting, it is that a man without water and food violates many rigorously verified laws of physics.

I have yet to see a rigorous proof for such violation of "verified laws of physics" in this thread. Would you care to supply one?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I too believe this "holy man" has demonstrated nothing yet, but agree with much of the sentiment conveyed by Dave.I have yet to see a rigorous proof for such violation of "verified laws of physics" in this thread. Would you care to supply one?

In this thread the entropic nature if metabolism has been discussed. How does life exist without reducing energy to a less organized state? We eat, we emit heat, and defecate and urinate. I don't feel the need for proof to counter a fraud who had access to water within at least 6 days.

 

[Jake4]

I would say however, that because science is 99% discovery, the slight possibility that it is legitimate is still there.

It may not obey the set rules we have as of now, but you can't ever decisively say that it is 100% a fraud.

We've seen many times in eastern medicine and the like, things that cannot be explained. This IS science, so don't throw it out, simply because it doesn't work with what we currently know.

Almost every discovery started with extreme skepticism (ehem, darwin? quantum?)

I'm not saying this is legitimate, but I'm simply saying that there is always a non-zero possibility that it is : )

 

[stevenb]

I too believe this "holy man" has demonstrated nothing yet, but agree with much of the sentiment conveyed by Dave.I have yet to see a rigorous proof for such violation of "verified laws of physics" in this thread. Would you care to supply one?

Science does not rely on rigorous proofs in the mathematical sense. Instead, proofs are more akin to the kind used in a courtroom. If you want to entertain the possibility of this claim being valid, then you open the door to any crackpot idea. Hey, maybe I should go outside and see if men from Mars are on my roof right now. I have no rigorous proof that they are not there unless I go out and look, and what a great discovery that would be, if they happen to be there. Hey further yet, I claim the I went outside and found that they really are there. Hey, you should believe the possibility and take a plane and come verify for yourself. Come on, I invite you to come see. If you come, I'll let you be a coauthor on a paper. We'll both be famous.

It might save time to instead ask, "What laws of physics are not violated?". Really now, some violations have been mentioned in this thread already. Conservation of mass and conservation of energy are clearly violated. Water evaporates in sweat and breathing, yet he will not lose weight after 70 years. He stopped eating as an adolecent, yet he continued to grow. He clearly ages and changes physically with no energy input. Also, he moves without an energy source.

OK, now go ahead and say that the real law of physics is conservation of mass/energy. Maybe he has mass/energy conversion organs in his chest. No wait, Dave said that his organs can be normal and still the claim can be valid. That can't be it. OK, he absorbes external energy sources like sunlight and with normal organs is able to convert energy to water. Yep, OK you're right, no violations of physics at all. OK, the claim is true. I give up.

 

[Gokul43201]

I don't feel the need for proof to counter a fraud who had access to water within at least 6 days.

Then your claim ought to be a violation of rigorous experimental protocol rather than a violation of the laws of physics.

 

[Gokul43201]

Science does not rely on rigorous proofs in the mathematical sense.

If there's no intention of providing a proof there ought to be no assertions of violating rigorously verified physical laws.

Why not just stop at saying this person has made an extra-ordinary claim and the so-called demonstration was lacking in sufficient experimental rigor to verify the claim? (And therefore this is not worth speculating about.)

 

[Gokul43201]

Yep, OK you're right, no violations of physics at all. OK, the claim is true. I give up.

What's the name for this kind of logical fallacy?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

If there's no intention of providing a proof there ought to be no assertions of violating rigorously verified physical laws.

Why not just stop at saying this person has made an extra-ordinary claim and the so-called demonstration was lacking in sufficient experimental rigor to verify the claim? (And therefore this is not worth speculating about.)

This is page 13, I have long since done as you described.

 

[stevenb]

What's the name for this kind of logical fallacy?

frustration

 

[stevenb]

Why not just stop at saying this person has made an extra-ordinary claim and the so-called demonstration was lacking in sufficient experimental rigor to verify the claim? (And therefore this is not worth speculating about.)

That's a statement that I can accept with no problem.

 

[pallidin]

I share in the frustration. To those whom wish to believe the claim:

Please cite ANY evidence that a human can survive without water for more than a week or so(less than 2 weeks).

If you can not, please cite ANY scientific study which shows it is potentially possible.

So, that's a CHALLENGE.