News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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Protests in Egypt have escalated into violence, with reports of protesters being beaten and arrested, including journalists. The unrest is characterized as significant but not an outright uprising, contrasting with the recent events in Tunisia. Rumors suggest that President Mubarak's family may have fled the country, raising concerns about potential instability. As protests continue, there are fears that the situation could worsen, particularly with a planned massive demonstration. The emergence of a leaderless youth movement is seen as a critical factor in challenging Mubarak's long-standing regime.
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  • #702


regarding thugs, from a prior article i https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3127825&postcount=502" to:

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/516/why-mubarak-is-out
But police stations gained relative autonomy during the past decades. In certain police stations this autonomy took the form of the adoption of a militant ideology or moral mission; or some Vice Police stations have taken up drug running; or some ran protection rackets that squeezed local small businesses. The political dependability of the police, from a bottom-up perspective, is not high. Police grew to be quite self-interested and entrepreneurial on a station-by-station level. In the 1980s, the police faced the growth of “gangs,” referred to in Egyptian Arabic as baltagiya. These street organizations had asserted self-rule over Cairo’s many informal settlements and slums. Foreigners and the Egyptian bourgeoisie assumed the baltagiya to be Islamists but they were mostly utterly unideological. In the early 1990s the Interior Ministry decided “if you can’t beat them, hire them.” So the Interior Ministry and the Central Security Services started outsourcing coercion to these baltagiya, paying them well and training them to use sexualized brutality (from groping to rape) in order to punish and deter female protesters and male detainees, alike. During this period the Interior Ministry also turned the State Security Investigations (SSI) (mabahith amn al-dawla) into a monstrous threat, detaining and torturing masses of domestic political dissidents.
 
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  • #703


Thanks Proton Soup.
 
  • #704


nismaratwork said:
Wow... I wish she'd fire that thing, because the way she's holding it she'd have been lucky to walk away with a separated shoulder.

It appears the way she's holding it is the result of her she's examining the optics, and not because she's actually lining up for a shot. It's exactly the way I'd hold an M-16/M-4/AR-15 if I were examining its optics.
 
  • #705


mugaliens said:
It appears the way she's holding it is the result of her she's examining the optics, and not because she's actually lining up for a shot. It's exactly the way I'd hold an M-16/M-4/AR-15 if I were examining its optics.

Really? Look at her finger... I don't examine optics with a finger on the trigger, I do in the guard positon at least. This is paired with an observation of her shooting stance in other pics, and her "Alaska" show.

Anyway, if that's what she's doing, fantatistic, although I'm not sure what she expects to glean with 0 experience in using an assault rifle at serious range. Then again, I did say that I hoped she SHOT the gun in that position, not that she did.
 
  • #708


What is the situation in Iran? Or does that need it's own thread?
 
  • #709


Lacy33 said:
What is the situation in Iran? Or does that need it's own thread?

I think mugaliens summed it up pretty well... basically some Iranians thought that their leadership would hesitate to kill them... which they most certainly did not.
 
  • #710


nismaratwork said:
Hmmm... looks like Iran isn't taking any chances...

Same thugs, except the camels...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR45k5eMJ1E http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossein_Noori_Hamedani" looks like a real light-bulb:
"Crazy ideas such as secularism, liberalism, and humanism are part of our enemies' plans to sow disunity."​
 
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  • #711


DevilsAvocado said:
Same thugs, except the camels...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR45k5eMJ1E


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossein_Noori_Hamedani" looks like a real light-bulb:
"Crazy ideas such as secularism, liberalism, and humanism are part of our enemies' plans to sow disunity."​

Always the same thugs, but these... have a much broader license. Iranian leadership is also clearly willing to disappear anyone to maintain power. Another joy of Iran is that the "the army and the people are [NOT] 'one hand'"... the army of Iran would do what its leaders tell them.

In addition, you won't have the Arab outrage for their fairly well loathed Persian neighbours, as they see it.

edit: Yeah, Hamedani sounds pretty out-there... or he sounds like a self-styled modern "Libertarian". I find that quite disturbing.
 
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  • #712


nismaratwork said:
Always the same thugs, but these... have a much broader license.

Indeed true... I feel very sorry for the opposition in Iran...
 
  • #713


DevilsAvocado said:
Indeed true... I feel very sorry for the opposition in Iran...

Oh definitely... it must be maddening to see others gaining what you see as freedom, but your own government crushes you.
 
  • #714


Yes infuriating...
 
  • #715


mugaliens said:
It appears the way she's holding it is the result of her she's examining the optics, and not because she's actually lining up for a shot. It's exactly the way I'd hold an M-16/M-4/AR-15 if I were examining its optics.

Interesting indeed... examining the optics from above, with a finger on the trigger?? I guess this is the trick she performs when spotting Russia from her porch...

(I sure hope this is not the way you handle an M-16 onboard a nuke B-52...
 
  • #716


DevilsAvocado said:
Interesting indeed... examining the optics from above, with a finger on the trigger?? I guess this is the trick she performs when spotting Russia from her porch...

(I sure hope this is not the way you handle an M-16 onboard a nuke B-52... )

Well... actually... the finger on the trigger is nutsy in my view, but she could be checking the AR coating or settings... or she could be looking as though she is. Either way, I'm not impressed even if the gun is 'safe'... bad form.
 
  • #718


nismaratwork said:
...but she could be checking the AR coating or settings...

Darned... think you’re on to something! This Maverick is of course checking (by mental calculation!) if the aperture and focal length will bring the collimated rays to focus on an angle of view and optical power enough – to spot Putin in Moscow!

If you look closer she has focus on the lens cap...

I’m pretty sure that Mrs. Palin first guess on "AR coating" would be American Red Coat:

[PLAIN]http://images.translucence.multiply.com/image/1/photos/upload/300x300/SP8qmgoKCp0AAGCwfkI1/palin-redcoat-297.jpg?et=PypAsh8sbN9ngn%2CLOIhDxw&nmid=0
 
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  • #719


rootX said:
Iran is handling it quite well.

Indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AqB_RlWe-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqOMKL1FHoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E94-1R3OvM
 
  • #720


OmCheeto said:
I believe there are still people trying to make the poor people feel sorry for the rich people. And they are succeeding.
Who? Who are these people I keep hearing about that are trying to make people "feel sorry" for rich people, or that do feel sorry for them? Any names or links?

Or is it a manifestation of a gross misunderstanding of why many of us oppose wealth confiscation from the private sector?
 
  • #721


nismaratwork said:
Wow... I wish she'd fire that thing, because the way she's holding it she'd have been lucky to walk away with a separated shoulder.
Isn't that an M-16 variant (.223 caliber)? If so, I'd think the recoil is far too mild to separate a shoulder even at such an awkward position, even with her small frame.
Yes... I wish that kind of self-inflicted harm on idiots of her brand.
Now that's just mean!
 
  • #722


hello there
 
  • #723


Al68 said:
Isn't that an M-16 variant (.223 caliber)? If so, I'd think the recoil is far too mild to separate a shoulder even at such an awkward position, even with her small frame.Now that's just mean!

Whatever .. the reality is that it appears she has zero experience in handling such a weapon (as someone mentioned earlier) and is merely posing - a pathetic thing in itself.

Very irresponsible, intimidating, and liable to steer dopey minds in a bad direction. And the finger on the trigger ? Man, there are just so many things wrong with that photo ..
 
  • #724


OmCheeto said:
Apparently not. I believe there are still people trying to make the poor people feel sorry for the rich people. And they are succeeding.

I was sitting with a couple of minimum wage, part time employees a few weeks ago and I mentioned the fact that a young lady in Texas had just inherited $9 billion from her dad and that she didn't have to pay a penny in taxes. One of them shouted; "Double Taxation!"

Bullseye.

What would the term be... "Compassionate Losers"?

It’s absolutely hilarious with this ridiculous "lone rider" myth – all you need is your gun, horse and great cahones. It worked when there was "gold on the ground", but this time is long gone.

To have any business today you need be in a social/financial environment that has a complete 'infrastructure' in place (not talking about roads). Every well educated employee that generates revenue for the company needs, of course, the ability to have decent life before, during and after the employment.

Otherwise the system degenerates – just look at Egypt. One man thought he could keep all the dough himself, while the students used literature from 1950. It just doesn’t work.

There is no way we can compete with the Chinese in cheap labor; that train went years ago. The only prosperous way is education, technology and research. Let’s hope the Egyptians get this...

One real stupid way to get rid of the 'very cruel' "wealth confiscation from the private sector" is to calculate the total costs for one employee; including education, community services and infrastructure, and let the company pay this fee to the government before employment. The only problem with this brainless solution is that the "astronomical start-up investments" would prevent everyone (except maybe William Henry Gates III) to start-up new companies.

No man is an island, not even Hosni Mubarak.
John Donne – 1624

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
 
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  • #725


Uh... I'm sorry that an offhand comment that was, as Al68 rightly points out, mean. (it could be .223, or a stopped barrel I don't know) Don't get me wrong, I'd still love to see Palin separate a shoulder trying to shoot something, but I'm happy to cede to the general point.


Back to Egypt... or rather, the region. Bahrain... not happy campers AT ALL.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12468336

Got it... you kill them, then you probe their deaths... I'm sure nobody will figure that one out.

Oh... and Iran... IN Parliment.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/15/iran.protests/ (video)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-15-iran-reaction-protests_N.htm
Tens of thousands of people turned out for the opposition rally Monday in solidarity with Egypt's popular revolt that toppled President Hosni Mubarak after nearly 30 years in power. The demonstration was the first major show of strength from Iran's beleaguered opposition in more than a year.

At an open session of parliament Tuesday, pro-government legislators demanded opposition leaders Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mahdi Karroubi and former reformist President Mohammad Khatami face be held responsible for the protests.

OUTREACH: State Department taps Twitter to reach Iranians
Pumping their fists in the air, the lawmakers chanted "death to Mousavi, Karroubi and Khatami."

"We believe the people have lost their patience and demand capital punishment" for the opposition leaders, 221 lawmakers said in a statement.

Wow...
 
  • #726
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  • #727


DevilsAvocado said:
Yup, and as usual https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3138384&postcount=720"... :wink:

Nismar, maybe it’s time to ask Evo to change the title of this thread to: "What Exactly Is Happening In the Arabic World!?" ... :rolleyes:

Good point... Evo... If you can/like... go for it.

edit: Well, better make that Arab/Persian
 
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  • #728


I think most will get it...

Worldwide use of the Arabic alphabet
Arabic_alphabet_world_distribution.png
 
  • #729


DevilsAvocado said:
I think most will get it...

Worldwide use of the Arabic alphabet
Arabic_alphabet_world_distribution.png

Good point. :-p
 
  • #730


nismaratwork said:
Good point. :-p

maybe... :shy:
 
  • #731


CNN: Fury in Iranian parliament.
 
  • #732


Proton Soup said:
you're assuming a religious dictatorship. which is some of what i think that article is talking about, the US and Israel using MB as a "scarecrow" to maintain their own dictatorship in the form of (the former) Mubarak. you don't know, and neither do i, that hamas would get advanced heavy military equipment. or what it might mean to renegotiate terms with israel. israel has been committing some serious crimes on the palestinians, and maybe a change of status with egypt would encourage them to find peace there and the 2-state solution that the US has claimed to support. they certainly don't feel any pressure from us.

I basically agree with you, but honestly; Mubarak must be the one who used MB as a "scarecrow" to maintain his own dictatorship. AFAICT, both GWB and Obama have been 'pushing' for democratic reforms...

I wish you are right, but there is one big problem with this reasoning. The goal for MB is to implement an Islamic state, a theocracy with "God himself is recognized as the head" of the state. IMHO, this can never ever be 'compatible' with true democracy...

You could call this a "scarecrow", but then you run into troubles again – spokesmen for MB have declared on CNN that an Islamic state and Sharia laws is the goal for MB, "if this is what the people want"...

On top of that; when MB was asked about the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty the answer was: "What would you do if a country attacked you?"

Therefore, I can’t see any sustainable argument for refuting Edward Djerejian’s statement: "one man, one vote, one time."

(+ a lot of messy troubles that no one wants)

(And I hope you are aware of the problem with the "people’s voice" in 'theocratic' Iran...)

I don’t really buy the argument that Israel is also a "bad guy" – two wrongs don’t make it right. And to hope for Israel’s "unconditional surrender" in a scenario were Hamas is backed up by an Islamic Egypt superpower, is most probably nothing more than a wet dream...

Both parts must stop the violence and terror, and start genuine and sincere talks. That’s the only way.

But we shall se... today MB has announced it will become a political party (as you see things changes rapidly). This political party must have some kind of declaration/program, and this will be very interesting to review...

Here’s some good background info: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/14/gerges.muslim.brotherhood/"
 
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  • #733


DevilsAvocado said:
CNN: Fury in Iranian parliament.

If I were one of those reform leaders, I'd have wet my dishdasha and run! Man... Iran was such a beautiful country, educated, pretty free... the UK and we (The USA) have a lot to answer for there. Still, this is so beyond anything you see in a nation that pretends to be open... NK maybe, or Cambodia under Pol Pot.

Thing is... you know what it means to be the opposition in Iran, and people still do it. Given the obvious rage and possible fear of the Mullahs, I think they'll die and kill keeping Iran true to their vision of what should be. Is there ever anything more frightening than someone who will torture and kill you... for your own good? :bugeye:
 
  • #734


DevilsAvocado said:
I basically agree with you, but honestly; Mubarak must be the one who used MB as a "scarecrow" to maintain his own dictatorship. AFAICT, both GWB and Obama have been 'pushing' for democratic reforms...

I wish you are right, but there is one big problem with this reasoning. The goal for MB is to implement an Islamic state, a theocracy with "God himself is recognized as the head" of the state. IMHO, this can never ever be 'compatible' with true democracy...

You could call this a "scarecrow", but then you run into troubles again – spokesmen for MB have declared on CNN that an Islamic state and Sharia laws is the goal for MB, "if this is what the people want"...

On top of that; when MB was asked about the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty the answer was: "What would you do if a country attacked you?"

Therefore, I can’t see any sustainable argument for refuting Edward Djerejian’s statement: "one man, one vote, one time."

(+ a lot of messy troubles that no one wants)

(And I hope you are aware of the problem with the "people’s voice" in 'theocratic' Iran...)

I don’t really buy the argument that Israel is also a "bad guy" – two wrongs don’t make it right. And to hope for Israel’s "unconditional surrender" in a scenario were Hamas is backed up by an Islamic Egypt superpower, is most probably nothing more than a wet dream...

Both parts must stop the violence and terror, and start genuine and sincere talks. That’s the only way.

But we shall se... today MB has announced it will become a political party (as you see things changes rapidly). This political party must have some kind of declaration/program, and this will be very interesting to review...

Here’s some good background info: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/14/gerges.muslim.brotherhood/"

Dangerous... and here is where the Turkish model comes into play. You can't tell the MB to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, because that IS part of what people hate in Egypt. By the same token, the scenario you lay out sounds like the setting for total war in the region, possibly a WW. Obviously a balance must be struck wherein you have the MB free to be party, but NOT free to create a theocracy directly or through social manipulation.

Who can do all of that, in Egypt... now? The military... that's it... and the people want a CIVILIAN government. I worry.
 
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  • #735


nismaratwork said:
Is there ever anything more frightening than someone who will torture and kill you... for your own good? :bugeye:
Where do these nutcases all come from??

It’s a nutty world; in Iran the fight to get rid of the ayatollahs... and in Egypt there’s a small risk this is what they’ll get after all struggle...
 
  • #736


mugaliens said:
Nope! We didn't need M-16s. Our loadout was a little more substantial. Not all at once, though! There are at least five different loadouts pictured, here:

I can’t help it, but everytime I see this nuke madness – I always think of Dr. Strangelove aka Dr. Merkwürdigliebe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji6xXqTuJow
 
  • #737


nismaratwork said:
Dangerous... and here is where the Turkish model comes into play. You can't tell the MB to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, because that IS part of what people hate in Egypt. By the same token, the scenario you lay out sounds like the setting for total war in the region, possibly a WW. Obviously a balance must be struck wherein you have the MB free to be party, but NOT free to create a theocracy directly or through social manipulation.

Who can do all of that, in Egypt... now? The military... that's it... and the people want a CIVILIAN government. I worry.

Worrying indeed... (I hope Lacy is not reading)

Couldn’t they propose a new constitution where MB is very welcome as a "clean political party" without the "theocracy overhead", to 'consider and protect' the Muslim interest in Egypt?

Why is this so impossible??

Couldn’t there be constitution stating by law a separation of church and state?? That democracy is protected by law??
 
  • #738


DevilsAvocado said:
Worrying indeed... (I hope Lacy is not reading)

Couldn’t they propose a new constitution where MB is very welcome as a "clean political party" without the "theocracy overhead", to 'consider and protect' the Muslim interest in Egypt?

Why is this so impossible??

Couldn’t there be constitution stating by law a separation of church and state?? That democracy is protected by law??


That's a great idea - if the military is charged with enforcement.:wink:
 
  • #739


WhoWee said:
That's a great idea - if the military is charged with enforcement.:wink:

That's the issue... back to the Atatürk model, and that means military enforcement. Still, it's hard to argue that Turkey didn't avoid even more death and destruction with their policies, but it's hard to argue that they're not draconian either.

Egypt is in for "Interesting Times", in the Chinese proverbial sense; we all are.
 
  • #740
*looks at thread title*

Evo... :smile: Thanks Evo, and thanks for the good notion DA.
 
  • #741
nismaratwork said:
*looks at thread title*

Evo... :smile: Thanks Evo, and thanks for the good notion DA.
Anything for you guys. :smile:
 
  • #742


DevilsAvocado said:
I basically agree with you, but honestly; Mubarak must be the one who used MB as a "scarecrow" to maintain his own dictatorship. AFAICT, both GWB and Obama have been 'pushing' for democratic reforms...

I wish you are right, but there is one big problem with this reasoning. The goal for MB is to implement an Islamic state, a theocracy with "God himself is recognized as the head" of the state. IMHO, this can never ever be 'compatible' with true democracy...

You could call this a "scarecrow", but then you run into troubles again – spokesmen for MB have declared on CNN that an Islamic state and Sharia laws is the goal for MB, "if this is what the people want"...

On top of that; when MB was asked about the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty the answer was: "What would you do if a country attacked you?"

Therefore, I can’t see any sustainable argument for refuting Edward Djerejian’s statement: "one man, one vote, one time."

(+ a lot of messy troubles that no one wants)

(And I hope you are aware of the problem with the "people’s voice" in 'theocratic' Iran...)

I don’t really buy the argument that Israel is also a "bad guy" – two wrongs don’t make it right. And to hope for Israel’s "unconditional surrender" in a scenario were Hamas is backed up by an Islamic Egypt superpower, is most probably nothing more than a wet dream...

Both parts must stop the violence and terror, and start genuine and sincere talks. That’s the only way.

But we shall se... today MB has announced it will become a political party (as you see things changes rapidly). This political party must have some kind of declaration/program, and this will be very interesting to review...

Here’s some good background info: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/14/gerges.muslim.brotherhood/"

i'm not sure where you get this idea of israel's "unconditional surrender", they are not coming at this from a position of weakness. israel is working very hard to destroy the palestinians, and has been quite successful. what would be different with a democratic egypt is that the government would not approve of that behavior. and that could lead to diplomatic efforts that dissuade israel from continuing to “keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse.” in fact, a democratic egypt could change that policy unilaterally by simply re-opening the border with Gaza.

in any case, here's part of what Peter Beinart has to say:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-07/israels-fears-about-the-egyptian-uprising/
All of which is to say: a shift in U.S. and Israeli policy towards Hamas is long overdue. The organization has been basically observing a de-facto cease-fire for two years now, and in the last year its two top leaders, Khaled Meshal and Ismail Haniya, have both said Hamas would accept a two-state deal if the Palestinian people endorse it in a referendum. That doesn’t mean Hamas isn’t vile in many ways, but it does mean that Israel and America are better off allowing the Palestinians to create a democratically legitimate, national unity government that includes Hamas than continuing their current, immoral, failed policy. If a more democratic Egyptian government makes that policy harder to sustain, it may be doing Israel a favor.
 
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  • #743


Proton Soup said:
i'm not sure where you get this idea of israel's "unconditional surrender", they are not coming at this from a position of weakness. israel is working very hard to destroy the palestinians, and has been quite successful. what would be different with a democratic egypt is that the government would not approve of that behavior. and that could lead to diplomatic efforts that dissuade israel from continuing to “keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse.” in fact, a democratic egypt could change that policy unilaterally by simply re-opening the border with Gaza.

in any case, here's part of what Peter Beinart has to say:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-07/israels-fears-about-the-egyptian-uprising/

Hmmm... just based on Israeli military history, I'd have to say if they wanted the Palestinians destroyed... they'd be gone already. They're definitely choking them out economically, but this IS after Arafat decided to doom his people. Still, moral or immoral, it seems rational to smother a group of people who have, for whatever reason, become fairly intent on your complete destruction.
 
  • #744


DevilsAvocado said:
Worrying indeed... (I hope Lacy is not reading)

Couldn’t they propose a new constitution where MB is very welcome as a "clean political party" without the "theocracy overhead", to 'consider and protect' the Muslim interest in Egypt?

Why is this so impossible??

Couldn’t there be constitution stating by law a separation of church and state?? That democracy is protected by law??


Who is this they?

Whoever wins spots in the legislature when elections are held? I guess they could, provided, of course, that the MB wins so few spots that they're left with virtually no say about the constitution. Of course, if the MB doesn't have enough political power to win seats in the legislature (or on whatever transitional body that drafts a consitution), then they're too weak to worry about, anyway.

Unless we take WhoWee's idea a step further and let the military both write and enforce the constitution, but that certainly doesn't sound like a road to democracy.

I have to admit that the MB worries me, too. I don't think they could immediately implement Sharia law, but they've made no secret of their long term goal and I could see them doing it if they ever gained secure control of the government.

One would hope that some organized alternatives will emerge by time the military holds free elections and that the political power of those alternatives increases to the point that the MB just isn't a very attractive option.
 
  • #745
Oh lord... http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-ap-us-tv-lara-logan-attack,0,5354829.story

Chicago Tribume said:
NEW YORK (AP) — CBS News correspondent Lara Logan was recovering in a U.S. hospital Tuesday from a sexual attack and beating she suffered while reporting on the tumultuous events in Cairo.

Logan was in the city's Tahrir Square on Friday after Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak stepped down when she, her team and their security "were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration," CBS said in a statement Tuesday.

The network described a mob of more than 200 people "whipped into a frenzy."

Separated from her crew in the crush of the violent pack, she suffered what CBS called "a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating." She was saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers, the network said. The Associated Press does not name victims of a sexual assault unless the victim agrees to it.

Wow, it turns out that mobs of people aren't always sweetness and light... still, that's horrendous. Good for those women and soldiers though.
 
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  • #746


BobG said:
Unless we take WhoWee's idea a step further and let the military both write and enforce the constitution, but that certainly doesn't sound like a road to democracy.
Probably not, though at least one more or less successful example comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk" in Turkey.
 
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  • #747
nismaratwork said:
Evo... :smile: Thanks Evo, and thanks for the good notion DA.
Evo said:
Anything for you guys. :smile:


Looking good! Thanks guys. :smile:
 
  • #748


Proton Soup said:
i'm not sure where you get this idea of israel's "unconditional surrender", they are not coming at this from a position of weakness. israel is working very hard to destroy the palestinians, and has been quite successful. what would be different with a democratic egypt is that the government would not approve of that behavior. and that could lead to diplomatic efforts that dissuade israel from continuing to “keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse.” in fact, a democratic egypt could change that policy unilaterally by simply re-opening the border with Gaza.

Agree 100%, this is the dream we are (all?) hoping for.

If I had a 'magic wand', this is my (ignorant & silly) dream:

Egypt manages to get thru this first 'wavering' situation, and manage to establish a new constitution that secures democracy by law. The Muslim Brotherhood may get 20, 30 or 40% in the first election, and this is perfectly okay for everyone including U.S. and Israel, since democracy is secured. The younger generation, who started the revolution, gets their fair representation in the Parliament. This "melting pot" of new ideas and new opportunities boosts the economy in Egypt, and the rest of the world is stunned...

Basically the same miracle also happens in Iran, swift and easy! :smile:

Now, this would be nothing but a veritable nightmare for the hawks in Israel and Gaza. They would look like mediaeval goons, solving conflicts by throwing rocks at each other. They would be under tremendous diplomatic pressure from the whole world, and forced to solve the issues in a civilized manner...

I think this something along 'your lines' as well, right? The only difference between me and you, is that I think that every effort possible should be made to prevent the "theocracy door" to close on this 'dream', before we had a chance to reflect on – "What the heck happened!? :bugeye:"

("we" is kinda stupid, this is of course up to the Egyptian people...)
 
  • #749
nismaratwork said:
Oh lord... http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-ap-us-tv-lara-logan-attack,0,5354829.story



Wow, it turns out that mobs of people aren't always sweetness and light... still, that's horrendous. Good for those women and soldiers though.

Conservative America says that this proves that the movement in Egypt is pure evil. Guess we get to see what people do when they're panicked.
 
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  • #750


WhoWee said:
That's a great idea - if the military is charged with enforcement.:wink:

BobG said:
Who is this they?

Unless we take WhoWee's idea a step further and let the military both write and enforce the constitution, but that certainly doesn't sound like a road to democracy.


"They" must be the http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8326469/Egypt-Islamist-judge-to-head-new-constitution-committee.html" and the constitutional panel.

I don’t know anything about writing a constitution... :blushing: but shouldn’t it be possible to include a "Force majeure" in the new constitution, basically saying that under normal conditions the military should "mind their own business" and nothing else.

IF, and only IF, someone tries to change the constitution away from democracy, the military automatically will have the legal power to restrain any such attempt by force.

("someone" must not necessary be MB, it could be "Little Green Men From Mars"... :smile:)

If any part at this stage already has any objection to this "Force majeure" – I smell a rat.
 
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