News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[FizixFreak]

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

@FizixFreak: Israel is acting in a fairly monstrous fashion, and the Palestinians are doing the same. As you say, the people who have NO excuse are the Arab nations who make it almost impossible for a Palestinian to get so much as a work visa; to them this is just a distraction so they can steal more from their people. Why, if Israel were no longer an issue, people might notice their own dictators like Mubarak, Qaddafi, Assad... oh wait, they did!

I know you strongly disagree with my view Fizix, but I'm not going to lie to you or anyone else about it. I'm also not going to dress it up in a moral justification; I think you understand that the ME is not a gentle place at the level of governments (the people are great). You can't be soft in the ME and expect to survive, and with nations carved by the French, British, and sometimes the USA... well... it's amazing things have held this long.

I think that once this all settles down and the people have the governments they want (or something closer), Israel is going to actually be FORCED to change internal policy, or risk war. Yes, it's a war they'd probably win, but at what cost in the short and long term?

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

@Char.Limit: I doubt that Iran is so far-sighted. After all, they have to know that Israel will strafe their metropolis before they allow a nuclear armed Iran. There's no talking to either nation, both have set themselves on a collision course.This is all a miserable state of affairs, but all the international community has done is drag this out endlessly for the sake of spice and silk, salt and gold, and now strategic positioning and oil. What should we expect form ALL sides of a conflict when one empire, secular, Islamic, Christian, other... all keep raiding the SAME places? Turkey can barely hold, and they had Ataturk... I see little hope for the future there. Above all, I'm disgusted by the behavior of Arab nations who claim the Palestinians as their brothers, but in practice reject them.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

Hell, look at Egypt, where the military just banned protests... almost as though they hadn't learned a lesson.

What will happen in Syria? What does that mean for Lebanon? Israel is an issue on all sides, pro, anti, and neutral, but it's not the immediate issue until these Arab and Persian thieving royal families get the boot from their own people. That gives a moral high-ground to the Arab and Persian nations, who given time will have forged a real government that can represent their interests.

I just wonder, one that happens, will they still PRETEND to care about the Palestinians?

Palestinian are doing the same?? please see these statistics before expressing your views

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Now that you have admitted that you are not looking for who is wrong or right who gives you the right to judge anyone's morality? i do understand your ideas and i can see that your method of approach is too "practical" so you don't look for good or evil that reminds me of the time when i saw a pack of hounds separating a little deer from its tribe and eating it while it was still alive they would obviously not think of what is right or wrong and who can blame them but if the humans commit such brutality would you still support them? i don't know how much younger or older you are from me but i can give you one peace of advice..., being too "practical" in your life might benefit you in a materialistic way but it will make a monster out of you some day...,but of course i don't think that you care about that you would rather turn into a monster than be on the harsh end of reality and for that i say well done

EDIT:Now i don't disagree with every thing you say ME is really not an easy position in such circumstances and things may be a lot complicated i agree but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason? how hard would it be to give them their rights? do they have any pressure on them to do so? is their public asking for this?(the public is actually against it) and it is really sad to know that the Palestinians are referred to as "mad dogs" by their own Arab brothers there really are no angels on any side but there are demons Specially the Arab leaders many Arab leaders actually declared Hezbollah as terrorist organization because of the Sunni-Shia conflict we will go in a circle as this argument goes on and in the end these Arab leaders would be the one to blame there but that would not justify the actions of Israel and their savagery i have no idea how have they devolved such hatred for the Palestinians.

By the way i am not being angry or emotional on this subject i have seen much worst opinions sadly when these opinions become practical we have these modern day conflict

As far as Iran is concern i disagree with you i think they are playing their cards right they may be a nuclear power but thanks to the USA Israel is ahead of them in fire power but they are really showing Israel the "finger" without sparking a direct conflict some thing even Israel would not want to have both the "parties" are keeping their guard up but and in case of a direct conflict despite the superior fire power Israel might not have a clear advantage(due to involvement of Hezbollah) unless of course "UNCLE SAM" steps in and why wouldn't they i know everything i am saying might be speculative but one thing is for sure no one wants to get in a war right now.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Coalition effort is not "a land invasion," according to U.S. official
Hospital patients and doctors paralyzed by fear
No military participation by Jordan
In the last day, the coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya, official says
[----]

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Despite five days of coalition airstrikes, troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi continued Wednesday to terrorize residents of the besieged rebel-held city of Misrata.

One witness said Gadhafi's forces had attacked the city's main hospital, where 400 people -- about half of them patients -- were located. The push began at 8 p.m. (2 p.m. ET), when "heavy tanks for Gadhafi troops start attacking the hospital -- the bombs falling here 20 meters (66 feet) around us," said one person inside the hospital. He said two deaths had occurred "around the hospital."

At one point, shelling occurred without respite for 40 minutes, he said. "Now, fortunately, no more shelling, but the situation is so serious that all the teams here -- the doctors, the patients -- are paralyzed, scared."

He called for international intervention to protect the civilians inside the institution. "Nobody can work here," he said. Ambulances were not able to leave the hospital, which had lost its electricity and was using generator power, he said.

During the last day, the international coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya -- 113 of them by U.S. planes and the remainder from other nations participating in the U.N.-backed mission, U.S. Navy Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber told reporters Wednesday

My goodness! what the hell is wrong with this Qaddafi it seems like he wants to wipe out his own people completely before he goes down we Muslims should stop bashing the USA and ISRAEL for their policies because we have such MONSTERS on their own "side" the things this guy is doing is just beyond humanity no wonder their was a planned rebellion against this guy i hope he is punished by the hands of the Libyan public now that would be real justice.

 

[elabed haidar]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

 

[FizixFreak]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

اسلام علیکم والرحمتھ اللھ وبرکاتھ

I think i forgot my manners the first time for that i am sorry but any way since you live in Lebanon may you can tell how severe the Sunni-shia conflict is in the Arab world?

 

[WhoWee]

G-d, this is truly sick:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

This is just a taste of what Ghaddafi would have done to Benghazi... I'm sorry, he's a monster beyond the norm... this is deranged behaviour that will turn his own people not just against him, but suicidally so. Who wouldn't die to protect their home from meaningless assault, or their wounded from shelling!?

There is a glimmer in the dark however...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/us.gadhafi.inner.circle/index.html?hpt=T1

Has anyone found coverage of this event by Arab media - any contrasting views to post? Bombing the perimeter of a hospital is pure terrorism - IMO.

 

[nismaratwork]

Palestinian are doing the same?? please see these statistics before expressing your views

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Now that you have admitted that you are not looking for who is wrong or right who gives you the right to judge anyone's morality?

I have the right to judge, but not to be heard or to be right. As it happens, I tend to be a moral relativist. I realize that the Palestinians are being ghettoized and systematically destroyed, but I see them as a hopeless cause. Mind you, not hopeless as a people, but hopeless because they have NO real support, and their leaders have taken any money that might reach the people like mob bosses. If I judged everyone's morality, I wouldn't have Turkish friends, who still won't admit to killing 1 million Armenians. I wouldn't be able to talk to you, and appreciate your view either; I don't judge for the most part in the "big" issues.

It is monstrous to confine a people to a small stretch of land, to deny them freedom of movement, and to frankly treat them as less than human. It's also monstrous to ACT less than human, and blow up bus loads of civilians. Beyond that however, it's STUPID... it's not a win when these things happen, it's a loss for everyone. Who wins when some more homes are bulldozed after a bombing?... a very small section of Israeli and Palestinian leadership, and that's it. This is an asymmetric conflict, but that doesn't mean that the moral high ground goes to the underdogs, anymore than we can say the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who became Al Qaeda were moral. They fought against the Soviets with USA training and money, we weren't acting morally... nobody was. The outcome wasn't right or wrong, just predictable.

[i do understand your ideas and i can see that your method of approach is too "practical" so you don't look for good or evil that reminds me of the time when i saw a pack of hounds separating a little deer from its tribe and eating it while it was still alive they would obviously not think of what is right or wrong and who can blame them but if the humans commit such brutality would you still support them?

I would be in tears, in fact it gets me just thinking about this. Then, I have a love for animals that I do NOT have for humans... the dogs were acting according to their nature, the deer to its. Do I chase the dogs away and starve them, or do I let them kill the deer? Where is the right and wrong in that? "Nature, red in tooth and claw," is all I see, but at least humans have more of a CHOICE.

The reality is that humans choose to largely act just like those dogs and deer; we're not so different, just more talkative. This is where I know we can't agree, because someone who believes that humans are divine creation DOES believe in a difference.

My counterpoint: the dogs in this pack are EVERYONE except the Palestinians themselves. The ones not actively pulling them down, are on the sidelines barking, but that's all. If the choice is slow death, or a clean death... which is kinder? Not right, not wrong, just better.

[i don't know how much younger or older you are from me but i can give you one peace of advice..., being too "practical" in your life might benefit you in a materialistic way but it will make a monster out of you some day...,but of course i don't think that you care about that you would rather turn into a monster than be on the harsh end of reality and for that i say well done

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say, but I do appreciate the advice and age doesn't matter. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality. All I can say is that if I could change reality by magic, it would not be to kill either the Israelis or Palestinians; rather it would be for peace. I don't believe that's going to happen however; neither side has a real desire for peace, both sides want to WIN at the expense of the other. In a zero sum game, there are only winners and losers, and the trauma left in its wake. A dead deer, full bellies for some dogs, and someone like you watching and probably wishing that you'd never seen it.

EDIT:Now i don't disagree with every thing you say ME is really not an easy position in such circumstances and things may be a lot complicated i agree but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason? how hard would it be to give them their rights? do they have any pressure on them to do so? is their public asking for this?(the public is actually against it) and it is really sad to know that the Palestinians are referred to as "mad dogs" by their own Arab brothers there really are no angels on any side but there are demons Specially the Arab leaders many Arab leaders actually declared Hezbollah as terrorist organization because of the Sunni-Shia conflict we will go in a circle as this argument goes on and in the end these Arab leaders would be the one to blame there but that would not justify the actions of Israel and their savagery i have no idea how have they devolved such hatred for the Palestinians.

Bomb and rocket people enough, and they have to make choices consciously or not, so you have hatred for people who sow fear in an unpredictable fashion. This is just one massive blood feud, and the only winners will ever be the ones NOT participating; Israel loses, the Palestinians lose, and you can see the Arab autocrats ALREADY losing.

The Palestinians want to return to what they see as their homeland, an action that would make it theirs in truth. The Israelis will not allow that, and it seems at one point offered everything short of that. Then you have the concern of the Mullahs, Rabbis, and Cardinals; Jerusalem, and they just use both sides as props for their own "careers". Beyond that, the history of the ME is a history of conquest, a history of peace only during times when that conquest was so total that nobody nearby could or would fight. I see no change in these "modern" times, and no tendency to change. The causes change, the religions change, but nothing ever really changes in the ME.

By the way i am not being angry or emotional on this subject i have seen much worst opinions sadly when these opinions become practical we have these modern day conflict

I understand, and if you're angry I understand that as well. I suspect we have very different views, but probably share similar IDEALS; we both would prefer peace, I just believe it's impossible.

As far as Iran is concern i disagree with you i think they are playing their cards right they may be a nuclear power but thanks to the USA Israel is ahead of them in fire power but they are really showing Israel the "finger" without sparking a direct conflict some thing even Israel would not want to have both the "parties" are keeping their guard up but and in case of a direct conflict despite the superior fire power Israel might not have a clear advantage(due to involvement of Hezbollah) unless of course "UNCLE SAM" steps in and why wouldn't they i know everything i am saying might be speculative but one thing is for sure no one wants to get in a war right now.

Few sane people want war, but war is coming.

My goodness! what the hell is wrong with this Qaddafi it seems like he wants to wipe out his own people completely before he goes down we Muslims should stop bashing the USA and ISRAEL for their policies because we have such MONSTERS on their own "side" the things this guy is doing is just beyond humanity no wonder their was a planned rebellion against this guy i hope he is punished by the hands of the Libyan public now that would be real justice.

He wants to kill what he can't have, just like a bully on the playground, or anyone else like him. The only difference is that he has people to make that happen to some extent. He's different from Assad, Mubarak, Bin Ali and others... frankly he makes Hussein look sweet. I realize Hussein did worse, but given the same resources I think Qaddafi would make that look tame... can you imagine Qaddafi with weaponized Sarin?! With the kind of air power that Saddam had?! He'd have wiped out the people in the east before anyone could have fired a single cruise missile. He is a mad dog, and should be the example we compare other so called 'devils' to, Arab, Persian, Israeli, American, European.

We have some immoral and nasty people on all sides, but there are only a few monsters like Qaddafi, and they should be the proof that we have more in common than not.

One last thing: here is the gist (direction) of a conversation I had with 2 Kuwaiti friends, 3 Jewish friends, and one Palestinian friend:

1.)Jordan, Egypt, and other countries need to accept Palestinian immigrants, and the EU/USA should offer DIRECT support to make that feasible.
2.)Gaza needs to be de-ghettoized and the Palestinian people recognized as sovereign.
3.)Israel needs to be left the hell alone, no more bombings, no more rockets, no more Iran using these poor people as their tools. The "right of return" is a dead issue.
4.)Jerusalem is too important to many people (even if I miss the point), and should be a city-state like the Vatican, but run by Israel, the (new) Palestinian nation, and an EU representative for the Christian side.
5.)While Jerusalem will not change in terms of who lives there, it will no longer be an apple for ONE group, it will be a shared commodity to keep or destroy as a group.

That's what I think is possible, but unlikely, however it's my "dream". Mostly I don't deal in those, but it's my version of a practical fantasy.

 

[nismaratwork]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

I realize you may not want to even speak to me online, but do you have any insight into how Lebanon is reacting to the turmoil in Syria?

 

[alt]

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

And that, particularly the underlined (by me) sums up the ME.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

You're striking some home truths here Nismar - uncomortable to some, but truth, nonetheless. I've experienced the same from Kuwait people, even here. Their opinion of Palesinians is very low .. but then, so is their opinion of everyone else.

 

[nismaratwork]

And that, particularly the underlined (by me) sums up the ME.



You're striking some home truths here Nismar - uncomortable to some, but truth, nonetheless. I've experienced the same from Kuwait people, even here. Their opinion of Palesinians is very low .. but then, so is their opinion of everyone else.

I don't know about the latter (I'm biased with the pals I have there), but damn if the former isn't the truth. I thought it would be different in Jordan, or Turkey... nope... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend, "It's easier for camel to pass through the head of a pin than it is for a Palestinian to get a Visa in an Arab nation." Sad, but true given that I've never seen a "raving" Palestinian except on TV, in person... what a shock, they're people like any other.

"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained and until the ignoble but unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique, and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and goodwill; until all Africans stand and speak as free human beings, equal in the eyes of the Almighty; until that day, the African continent shall not know peace. We Africans will fight if necessary and we know that we shall win as we are confident in the victory of good over evil" – English translation of 1968 Speech delivered to the United Nations

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason?

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

 

[nismaratwork]

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

True, and it's not the first time. It's no good for the Palestinians either, but who could benefit from a distraction in that direction? Who's having internal issues and could use Israel as a scapegoat?

Iran.

Who owns and runs Hezbollah, and now controls most of Hamas?

Iran.

Who is protesting AGAINST this new violence?

The Palestinian leadership!

I'm really sick of seeing these people used by Arafat for power and money, used by Iran for power and position, used by Arab nations as a distraction while they brutalize their own people, and tired of people like Netanyahu (whom I've met and talked to) who is a soulless bastard. He's smart as hell, but his moral compass spins like a damned top. I'm tired of Israel being defined by the most militant groups on all sides, and not the majority of people who want a peaceful life.

 

[nismaratwork]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

Understand, it's one thing to say that an organization is corrupt, or "terrorist", revolutionary... whatever you choose to call it. It's another to say the PEOPLE are; I think Lebanon is in a terrible state, but that's not because the Lebanese people are somehow bad.

I will ask you this: where is the honor in training women and children to commit suicide (or if you prefer, martyr themselves), especially now when you see how Egypt and Tunisia have moved forward?

Honor is setting fire to yourself to spark a revolution, or to hold Tahrir Square while your own government tries to eliminate you. There's no honor in killing civilians, in lobbing katyusha rockets randomly over a border. There's no talking to people who are willing to do such things, and pointing to the other side's atrocities doesn't help. If you want honor and dignity, act with honor and dignity in the face of everything. If you can go to war and win, by all means do so, but you can't... so don't.

Honor is also cold comfort for orphaned children or the dead, and there is no honor in foreign control of your land... you should be more concerned with Iran via Syria into Lebanon than Israel over Palestine. When your own home is free, maybe you can spread that freedom.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well... Yemen is certainly going down the wrong road... their president is an idiot.


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/18/von.yemen.friday.clashes.yementv

You'd think Mubarak and Bin Ali would have been object lesson enough... maybe someone needs the full Mussolini treatment to drive the point home.

 

[FizixFreak]

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

And you probably missed this

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

You neglect everything what Israel has been doing and when there is a reaction to that you would notice that immediately a few days ago Israel wrecked houses in the occupied territory of Palestine but of course you must have missed it too

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=32231

Eight Palestinians were killed by Israel military firing but you missed that too

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/03/22/142510.html

PLEASE tell me if hamas if reacting to that would you consider it wrong?

 

[FizixFreak]

I have the right to judge, but not to be heard or to be right. As it happens, I tend to be a moral relativist. I realize that the Palestinians are being ghettoized and systematically destroyed, but I see them as a hopeless cause. Mind you, not hopeless as a people, but hopeless because they have NO real support, and their leaders have taken any money that might reach the people like mob bosses. If I judged everyone's morality, I wouldn't have Turkish friends, who still won't admit to killing 1 million Armenians. I wouldn't be able to talk to you, and appreciate your view either; I don't judge for the most part in the "big" issues.

It is monstrous to confine a people to a small stretch of land, to deny them freedom of movement, and to frankly treat them as less than human. It's also monstrous to ACT less than human, and blow up bus loads of civilians. Beyond that however, it's STUPID... it's not a win when these things happen, it's a loss for everyone. Who wins when some more homes are bulldozed after a bombing?... a very small section of Israeli and Palestinian leadership, and that's it. This is an asymmetric conflict, but that doesn't mean that the moral high ground goes to the underdogs, anymore than we can say the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who became Al Qaeda were moral. They fought against the Soviets with USA training and money, we weren't acting morally... nobody was. The outcome wasn't right or wrong, just predictable.
I would be in tears, in fact it gets me just thinking about this. Then, I have a love for animals that I do NOT have for humans... the dogs were acting according to their nature, the deer to its. Do I chase the dogs away and starve them, or do I let them kill the deer? Where is the right and wrong in that? "Nature, red in tooth and claw," is all I see, but at least humans have more of a CHOICE.

The reality is that humans choose to largely act just like those dogs and deer; we're not so different, just more talkative. This is where I know we can't agree, because someone who believes that humans are divine creation DOES believe in a difference.

My counterpoint: the dogs in this pack are EVERYONE except the Palestinians themselves. The ones not actively pulling them down, are on the sidelines barking, but that's all. If the choice is slow death, or a clean death... which is kinder? Not right, not wrong, just better.
I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say, but I do appreciate the advice and age doesn't matter. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality. All I can say is that if I could change reality by magic, it would not be to kill either the Israelis or Palestinians; rather it would be for peace. I don't believe that's going to happen however; neither side has a real desire for peace, both sides want to WIN at the expense of the other. In a zero sum game, there are only winners and losers, and the trauma left in its wake. A dead deer, full bellies for some dogs, and someone like you watching and probably wishing that you'd never seen it.

Bomb and rocket people enough, and they have to make choices consciously or not, so you have hatred for people who sow fear in an unpredictable fashion. This is just one massive blood feud, and the only winners will ever be the ones NOT participating; Israel loses, the Palestinians lose, and you can see the Arab autocrats ALREADY losing.

The Palestinians want to return to what they see as their homeland, an action that would make it theirs in truth. The Israelis will not allow that, and it seems at one point offered everything short of that. Then you have the concern of the Mullahs, Rabbis, and Cardinals; Jerusalem, and they just use both sides as props for their own "careers". Beyond that, the history of the ME is a history of conquest, a history of peace only during times when that conquest was so total that nobody nearby could or would fight. I see no change in these "modern" times, and no tendency to change. The causes change, the religions change, but nothing ever really changes in the ME.
I understand, and if you're angry I understand that as well. I suspect we have very different views, but probably share similar IDEALS; we both would prefer peace, I just believe it's impossible.
Few sane people want war, but war is coming. He wants to kill what he can't have, just like a bully on the playground, or anyone else like him. The only difference is that he has people to make that happen to some extent. He's different from Assad, Mubarak, Bin Ali and others... frankly he makes Hussein look sweet. I realize Hussein did worse, but given the same resources I think Qaddafi would make that look tame... can you imagine Qaddafi with weaponized Sarin?! With the kind of air power that Saddam had?! He'd have wiped out the people in the east before anyone could have fired a single cruise missile. He is a mad dog, and should be the example we compare other so called 'devils' to, Arab, Persian, Israeli, American, European.

We have some immoral and nasty people on all sides, but there are only a few monsters like Qaddafi, and they should be the proof that we have more in common than not.

One last thing: here is the gist (direction) of a conversation I had with 2 Kuwaiti friends, 3 Jewish friends, and one Palestinian friend:

1.)Jordan, Egypt, and other countries need to accept Palestinian immigrants, and the EU/USA should offer DIRECT support to make that feasible.
2.)Gaza needs to be de-ghettoized and the Palestinian people recognized as sovereign.
3.)Israel needs to be left the hell alone, no more bombings, no more rockets, no more Iran using these poor people as their tools. The "right of return" is a dead issue.
4.)Jerusalem is too important to many people (even if I miss the point), and should be a city-state like the Vatican, but run by Israel, the (new) Palestinian nation, and an EU representative for the Christian side.
5.)While Jerusalem will not change in terms of who lives there, it will no longer be an apple for ONE group, it will be a shared commodity to keep or destroy as a group.

That's what I think is possible, but unlikely, however it's my "dream". Mostly I don't deal in those, but it's my version of a practical fantasy.

You are hopeless aren't you Nismar? i really don't see why you are calling yourself a monster may be this word is considered "cool" in USA or like i said before you are just probably trying to act like badass monsters never fantasize about peace by the way but if you still want to be called some thing like that then who can stop you

I always avoid getting into such hypothetical conversation but mostly find my self in one of such conversations...,if it was a conversation based on facts and statistics i would have no problem but arguing with you on this subject is like smashing my head in a wall your stance on this subject is beyond me you wish for peace and you admit that Israel is being a monster and then you say that you are with Israel and give really strange reasons for that i can tell you one thing that because of thinking like this one day your head will explode i am sorry that i am judging you like this but trust me i still respect you.

Coming back to the topic i have to say i agree with you peace really seems far fetched in these situations and as far as the war goes it has been going on for a long time not the war that i referred to before but some thing what the defense analysts call FOURTH GENERATION WARFARE this is what Israel is doing in Palestine American did in Vietnam and they are currently doing in Pakistan the difference is that this type of warfare lasts forever it ignites hatred and rage which in return causes more damage which prolongs the misery of the human race.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/24/libya-live-blog-coalition-airstrikes-continue-in-tripoli/

C&C of the operation in Libya is being handed off to NATO.

@FixizFreak: Realpolitik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

I would say that I have hopes, but that at the same time I recognize the likely outcomes. These conflicts are never one-sided, and we are talking about two groups who want to kill each other, to destroy the other as though they had never existed. History teaches that such conflicts tend to end when just that happens, or exhaustion sets in. I'm yet to see any signs of any group in the ME tiring of violence except rhetorically, the practice is violence. Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate. Israelis bulldoze homes, Palestinians retaliate. So on, and So on, around and around.

Oh, and it is not cool to be called a monster in the USA, but as you can see from say, Proton's reaction, my views are generally held to be monstrous. I don't endorse killing of Palestinians, but I don't endorse supporting the inevitably losing side of a conflict. What are we to do, when so much religious and cultural hatred exists? How do you reason with people who think you bleed their children for the sabbath, or with people who think that it's OK to ghettoize a people?

There's no reason there, just blind hatred and old blood feuds. We all know how it ends; with killing... I'd rather save my hope for a cause that has a chance.


Now, here's a question: the two nations most poised to put a dent in the human population right now isn't the USA and any ME country, it's India and Pakistan. You have your country, which uses a nuclear deterrent so that if India were to invade, you could have a very brief window to nuke them, provoking a response in kind. You have the Line of Control, and so much of your resources fighting around Kashmir. Like it or not, I care more about the fate of India and Pakistan then I do about the fate of the Palestinians; a fate that is essentially written.

What of this generational warfare in your nation, and these events such as the relatively recent attacks in Mumbai? You have the USA funding and arming both of you, India AND Pakistan... you know that can't be good for you. I think Israel is not the worst thing happening in the region, not even close, but it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.

Yemen is a hell-hole, Syria is lovely, but don't speak out of turn or you're in hot water. Saudi Arabia is downright scary, and Iran and Afghanistan have gone from lush cosmopolitan countries to something out of the history books. Egypt is backsliding as we speak, and Tunisia is still rocked by transition. Bahrain and SA are crushing the Shia minority, and you have Iran trying to rule the region, even if they're not wanted.

Israel is a tiny slice of land in a vast ocean of violence, and ANCIENT feuds; different Adhann, different caliphs, different in small ways that add up to something LARGE. How is THAT going to change when Israel is the straw man that is used to keep populaces in line so they do not notice their leaders are rich, yet they are poor?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

You neglect everything what Israel has been doing

Absolutely not:

The rest of the world needs to take a clear stand against all aggression, no matter which part is guilty, and use all civil means available to isolate the Hawks and reward the Doves (they exist on both sides).

As I said before – the problem is that outsiders is taking a clear stand for one part, and completely ignore the other...

And with all due respect – your post was a 'minor example' of this – asking Israel to declare ("uncomplicated") peace at the same time as Hamas is sending rockets into their bedrooms doesn’t seem like a 'working solution'... does it?

you would notice that immediately a few days ago Israel wrecked houses in the occupied territory of Palestine but of course you must have missed it too

And a few days before that Hamas did something bad to the Israelis, and that’s why they did that bad thing you are talking about... and few days before that Israel did something really bad... and that’s why...

I think we all know this "never-ending story". The question is – Should we leave all human progress, and return to the very "Old Books" and let it be "Eye for an Eye"?? And if so – How long should this "medieval berserk operation" continue? Until everybody are dead on both sides?

Or, should we at least try to solve this in a modern civilized manner?

PLEASE tell me if hamas if reacting to that would you consider it wrong?

I understand your feelings, and if someone bombed my relatives I would most probably feel exactly the same thing, no question about that = "operation berserk".

But the question Hamas should ask themselves – Does it work? If not, is there any hope it will work in the future?

And the answerer is NO is both cases, a literally "dead end". IT DOES NOT WORK.

And I also think you should ask yourself (living on the outside) if you in your country prefer a "medieval society", where the law is "Eye for an Eye", and "Blood Feud" is practiced? Or do you prefer a modern civilized society with civilized laws?

Personally, I fully understand the "berserk feelings", but I also fully understand the immense complications of a "medieval system".

When it comes to Realpolitik, it is old German BS advocated by the old fart Otto von Bismarck, and implemented in the U.S by Richard Nixon.

It’s also known as "Power Politics", and is very 'simple' – the strong one wins everything.

That is NOT what I’m talking about.

And as you know more about this than me, maybe you could explain to me why Fatah does not have the same 'problems' with Israel as Hamas? And why are Hamas killing members of Fatah?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend

... and tired of people like Netanyahu (whom I've met and talked to) who is a soulless bastard. He's smart as hell, but his moral compass spins like a damned top.

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

 

[nismaratwork]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

I'm PM'ing you in response to this, because I'm giving you personal details I'd rather not be spread. If you still think I'm lying after, feel free to say so again.

edit: Check your PM, you have all the information you need, and more. Feel free to apologize whenever you like.

Greg: You have my permission to verify my name with DA.

I would clarify, I've claimed no expertise, I've always said exactly what is true: I read a lot. Ask Lacy33.

To be blunt, I don't need to lie... if I could I wouldn't even be using this name...

...you signed off after calling me a liar, without giving me a chance to prove you wrong? You cannot imagine how absurdly pissed I am at you right now DA... I hope that it was worth it, instead of simply asking me for verification.

 

[Lacy33]

I'm PM'ing you in response to this, because I'm giving you personal details I'd rather not be spread. If you still think I'm lying after, feel free to say so again.

edit: Check your PM, you have all the information you need, and more. Feel free to apologize whenever you like.

Greg: You have my permission to verify my name with DA.

I would clarify, I've claimed no expertise, I've always said exactly what is true: I read a lot. Ask Lacy33.

To be blunt, I don't need to lie... if I could I wouldn't even be using this name...

...and you snot, you signed off after calling me a liar, without giving me a chance to prove you wrong? You cannot imagine how absurdly pissed I am at you right now DA... I hope that it was worth it, instead of simply asking me for verification.

Good grief! Knock it off you guys. It's true, some people have a lot of experience and know a lot. Like me for example, I'm smarter than all of you together. Now make nice. we're the "Bratty Bunch." We have to keep the act together. :!)

 

[Char. Limit]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

 

[rootX]

This thread has degraded far beyond even current standards.
nismaratwork, in reference to the PM, you shouldn't release your personal information so easily to anyone who discuss with IMHO.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks Char, but I'm not in any high place, just social and related to some who are. I've sent him a PM with enough information to verify who I am, my past, and how this could be. What he chooses to believe after that is his problem, although given the evidence... he'd have to be rather thick to not get it. DA is not that, even if it seems he's lost all sense of politeness and propriety.

Still... thank you Char.

 

[nismaratwork]

This thread has degraded far beyond even current standards.



nismaratwork, in reference to the PM, you shouldn't release your personal information so easily to anyone who discuss with IMHO.

Believe me, I regretted it moments after doing it, but what's done is done. I was... and am, extremely angry.

 

[alt]

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

.. and even people in high places, I'll bet.

DA, you judged on assumptions rather than facts known to you. Not good. Before you attack anyone in the manner that you did, you need to be pretty sure of your facts.

And about closing this thread .. Nah ! .. That's the easy way out.

 

[alt]

I don't know about the latter (I'm biased with the pals I have there), but damn if the former isn't the truth. I thought it would be different in Jordan, or Turkey... nope... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend, "It's easier for camel to pass through the head of a pin than it is for a Palestinian to get a Visa in an Arab nation." Sad, but true given that I've never seen a "raving" Palestinian except on TV, in person... what a shock, they're people like any other.

what a shock, they're people like any other.

I was quite struck by the absolute truth of this statement when I did the Jerusalem tour years ago. I expected evil Jews, mad Arabs, fanatical Christians ..

If there's one overwhelming impression I got concerning the lot of them (the ordinary people) is just how nice, civil and friendly they all were.

Poetry (again) I know, but Mathew Arnold said it well (from 'Dover Beach') ..

.. and we are here as on a darkling plain
caught in confused alarms of struggle or flight
where ignorant armies clash by night.

 

[nismaratwork]

what a shock, they're people like any other.

I was quite struck by the absolute truth of this statement when I did the Jerusalem tour years ago. I expected evil Jews, mad Arabs, fanatical Christians ..

If there's one overwhelming impression I got concerning the lot of them (the ordinary people) is just how nice, civil and friendly they all were.

Poetry (again) I know, but Mathew Arnold said it well (from 'Dover Beach') ..

.. and we are here as on a darkling plain
caught in confused alarms of struggle or flight
where ignorant armies clash by night.

This is what makes the actions of ALL parties involved so monstrous... they're not monsters. Surely there have never been more ignorant armies than the extremes in the ME, Israel included. The confusion largely, a product of interests which seek to keep those armies from turning on them.

It's what is so heart-breaking when you see people just asking for a voice in Syria being killed, instead of spoken to.

There is always time for poetry.

 

[WhoWee]

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

I once suggested that (given his background) Jimmy Carter might (annonymously) enjoy the PF - let's just say nobody agreed with me that it was possible.

 

[nismaratwork]

I once suggested that (given his background) Jimmy Carter might (annonymously) enjoy the PF - let's just say nobody agreed with me that it was possible.

Heads of state are one thing, but what do you call a guy like Astronuc? Maybe not a high place in terms of state functions (although for all I know, maybe so), but sure as hell seems to be both in his field and with some national/international heft.

 

[WhoWee]

Heads of state are one thing, but what do you call a guy like Astronuc? Maybe not a high place in terms of state functions (although for all I know, maybe so), but sure as hell seems to be both in his field and with some national/international heft.

I don't think we'll have any heads of state engaged in the politics threads - but ANYONE with an interest in science or engineering might pop in for a visit from time to time.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't think we'll have any heads of state engaged in the politics threads - but ANYONE with an interest in science or engineering might pop in for a visit from time to time.

I agree, but you have a point... hell, it's not as though there are other sites like PF (sorry physorg) in terms of quality and presentation. Still, my point was generally that we already have some fairly impressive people judging by their careers and knowledge, and I'd be shocked if working in (again 'Nuc example) the nuclear industry in that fashion doesn't breed plut- err... connections/friends/colleauges who would be considered "in high places".

Life, as always, is about the network (and not freaking facebook!).

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/25/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T2

Well... this isn't any good, and now we have violence in Oman, Jordan.

http://www.kaj18.com/news/unrest-middle-east-and-north-africa-country-by-country1/

 

[nismaratwork]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

Well, you seem to have run off and decided to take the coward's way, so I'm forced to respond in some measure here. To say I'm surprised and dissapointed is a gross understatement.
edit: "DevilsAvocado Offline: Last Activity: Y 09:44 PM"

1.) You're reading into things that I've never said or claimed
-I do NOT speak Japanese, I've claimed (and do) understand some spoken Japanese. Wow... what a claim.
-I can understand your painful ignorance about Sheiks, but they are about as rare as rabbits, and come in varieties; political, religious, etc...
-Wow... I lived in Japan, and Ireland for a period of time. Surely nobody else can claim this... wait... what? What part of that is even modestly difficult to believe?
-Benjamin Netanyahu is not a 'close personal friend', I said I MET him, and spoke to him. Guess what, it wasn't the first time he paid this state a visit and the first time he was married to a close family friend, although that was before my time. So yeah, that's a little different, but he's one guy.

2.) Travel: I'm well traveled, but then so are a LOT of people. I'm sorry that when you travel, you don't make friends.
-Schools are a great place to socialize and make friends, and I went to a few. Check on some time Jigme (the younger) Wangchuck spent in High School, compare with the info I gave you... it's unambiguous. Was he a bosom buddy? No. Did we sit around with others and chat like normal kids? Yeah, although he had a picture of him hunting with bodyguard... he shot a deer with an AK-47... interesting stuff I won't forget.
-Same school was very international, and again... friends.

2.) Work and life: You do tend to meet people from other countries when you don't live in an utterly homogeneous society.
-I'm not religious, but I'm not vehemently against religious people so it's easy to make friends.
-In the case of one Kuwaiti friend I referenced, we were both losing weight in NC, and the "good people" there thought he was, "a greasy Arab" (direct quote). That alone gave me reason enough to talk to him, and he is anything but, and NC has a very extensive Muslim immigrant population. We got along, his 'brother' came over, his wife visited and his son who was a little younger than I. I got an invite, and took him up on the offer. What. A. Shock.

The rest is similar... family, friends, maintaining contacts with interesting people because MOST are closed-minded and rigid, not to mention dumber than bricks. Why come and chat in non-physics portions of PF?... it's the online extension of my offline behavior.

3.) Claims of expertise: I've made literally NONE. I read, and I'm willing to learn from error, and I had an exceptional education, much to my pleasure and dumb luck.
-I'm not an expert in Schizophrenia, but it's certainly a primary area of interest for me, along with abnormal psychology in general. Hint: experts don't have the ethical latitude to speculate as I do online in personal cases. You should know that, but there appear to be gaps in your knowledge I would not have anticipated.
-Where the hell did I claim to be an expert in nuclear ANYTHING? I've spent the majority of my time just soaking up everything I can from Astronuc and Ivan_Seeking (two different, yet informed views). Where in my constant questioning did you see a claim of expertise?

In short DA, what the hell are you talking about, or is this just your way of resolving a bit of cognitive dissonance now that you hate my views on the ME and Israel? There's more of course, in your PM should you return to read it, an respond. I'm not waiting upon your pleasure however, to defend myself from what amounts to libelous idiocy; consider this a simple first step.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/25/libya-live-blog-uae-to-support-enforce-no-fly-zone/?hpt=T1

NATO is now accepting (in principle) the full scope of UN-1973, much as we had to. Hand-over successful, which I'd say reads a hell of a lot better than, "Mission Accomplished" in a flight suit.

 

[nismaratwork]

More joy in Syria, 2 children killed among 37 others, with about 100 injured. These people aren't even calling for an end to Assad, just a change in how the government treats them. I hope our Syrian members are safe.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/25/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[FizixFreak]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/24/libya-live-blog-coalition-airstrikes-continue-in-tripoli/

C&C of the operation in Libya is being handed off to NATO.

@FixizFreak: Realpolitik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

I would say that I have hopes, but that at the same time I recognize the likely outcomes. These conflicts are never one-sided, and we are talking about two groups who want to kill each other, to destroy the other as though they had never existed. History teaches that such conflicts tend to end when just that happens, or exhaustion sets in. I'm yet to see any signs of any group in the ME tiring of violence except rhetorically, the practice is violence. Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate. Israelis bulldoze homes, Palestinians retaliate. So on, and So on, around and around.

Oh, and it is not cool to be called a monster in the USA, but as you can see from say, Proton's reaction, my views are generally held to be monstrous. I don't endorse killing of Palestinians, but I don't endorse supporting the inevitably losing side of a conflict. What are we to do, when so much religious and cultural hatred exists? How do you reason with people who think you bleed their children for the sabbath, or with people who think that it's OK to ghettoize a people?

There's no reason there, just blind hatred and old blood feuds. We all know how it ends; with killing... I'd rather save my hope for a cause that has a chance.

There is no doubt that it has become a vicious cycle but i am not going to repeatedly smash my head into a wall by continuing to argue about your ideology on this subject but i can only hope that you will one day change your views which by the way are completely beyond any logic even for a ME which you are NOT(or are you?

Now, here's a question: the two nations most poised to put a dent in the human population right now isn't the USA and any ME country, it's India and Pakistan. You have your country, which uses a nuclear deterrent so that if India were to invade, you could have a very brief window to nuke them, provoking a response in kind. You have the Line of Control, and so much of your resources fighting around Kashmir. Like it or not, I care more about the fate of India and Pakistan then I do about the fate of the Palestinians; a fate that is essentially written.

What of this generational warfare in your nation, and these events such as the relatively recent attacks in Mumbai? You have the USA funding and arming both of you, India AND Pakistan... you know that can't be good for you. I think Israel is not the worst thing happening in the region, not even close, but it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.

Well about our relations with India i have to say that our foreign policies on this subject have been too weak when mumbai attacks take place.., India blames Pakistan and they make their voice heard in the entire world but when we find proof that the indian intelligence is involved in attacks on the srilankan cricket team in Lahore AND not only that their intelligence is also involved in the violence in Baluchistan we do nothing absolutely nothing and there is not a single word of condemnation from our government even our media does not talk about this matter because of its "low rating" so with such weak policies of Pakistan and their silence on the sabotage by india..., India really does not need to actually engage with pakistan in direct warfare they are causing enough damage without a direct conflict (which will cripple their own economy) and our leaders are just sitting there doing nothing.

Yemen is a hell-hole, Syria is lovely, but don't speak out of turn or you're in hot water. Saudi Arabia is downright scary, and Iran and Afghanistan have gone from lush cosmopolitan countries to something out of the history books. Egypt is backsliding as we speak, and Tunisia is still rocked by transition. Bahrain and SA are crushing the Shia minority, and you have Iran trying to rule the region, even if they're not wanted.

Israel is a tiny slice of land in a vast ocean of violence, and ANCIENT feuds; different Adhann, different caliphs, different in small ways that add up to something LARGE. How is THAT going to change when Israel is the straw man that is used to keep populaces in line so they do not notice their leaders are rich, yet they are poor?

Well about Iran if i had to choose the Iran of either before 1979 or after 1979 i would chose the post-revolution iran because iran might have been a lush cosmopoitan country for you(before revolution) but it was a country run by a tyrant that was backed up by the US and the British and a leader who crushed opposition with brute force and only served the elites and made huge economic gaps in the rich and the poor and i wouldn't even talk about how he disgraced the islamic teachings and ideology because to understand that you have to be a muslim your self but that doesn't mean that i completely agree with the ideas of Khomeini that guy had no emotions when asked what does he feel on his return to iran he said "NOTHING" that guy was strict and cold in his approach and also very aggressive towards the out side world here is the summary to all that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzCDdXkwe28&feature=related

The economy of Iran was damaged when the shah left but what else can you expect after being in war for about a decade against Iraq and economic isolation by the USA and not surprisingly USA was being very generous to Iran before the revolution so basically i would say that while Khomeini did not implemented the true ideology of Islam in Iran but if there was no revolution the same would happen to Iran what happened to Iraq(first used as an ally and then bombed).

You are almost right about the other countries and again your approach is to "practical" you only think what would we get from resolving an issue rather than seeing the moral values behind it.

 

[nismaratwork]

Fizix, the morality is seperate; there is no way to reconcile morality with international actions: they are not moral actions.

The reality, is that as a species, we are not moral; we're manipulative hypocrites when averaged out, with only a few gems in the dross.

 

[FizixFreak]

Fizix, the morality is seperate; there is no way to reconcile morality with international actions: they are not moral actions.

The reality, is that as a species, we are not moral; we're manipulative hypocrites when averaged out, with only a few gems in the dross.

In practical every body follows the same path.., morality in international actions should be and must be present but here is the difference of religion begins to show but the real embarrassment for me would be to admit that not even one Muslim nation actually bother to care about the moral values when he make any decision take Egypt and SA for example its actually the system that turns a leader into a RULER who never cares to think about what is right and wrong morally...,but nobody is willing to change the system so basically you are right no matter which religion HUMANS are mostly hypocrites with just a few good men.

 

[FizixFreak]

Absolutely not:As I said before – the problem is that outsiders is taking a clear stand for one part, and completely ignore the other...

And with all due respect – your post was a 'minor example' of this – asking Israel to declare ("uncomplicated") peace at the same time as Hamas is sending rockets into their bedrooms doesn’t seem like a 'working solution'... does it?

I wouldn't mind if you call me an outsider i am not an Arab/Palestinian/Lebanese and you are right no one should impose his views on anyone i think i was a little aggressive in my response and i neglected your previous post but i still don't see much complications on the side of Israel from the statistics you can clearly see that who is being an aggressor but your media never tells you that then again you shouldn't take my word for it...

And a few days before that Hamas did something bad to the Israelis, and that’s why they did that bad thing you are talking about... and few days before that Israel did something really bad... and that’s why...

I think we all know this "never-ending story". The question is – Should we leave all human progress, and return to the very "Old Books" and let it be "Eye for an Eye"?? And if so – How long should this "medieval berserk operation" continue? Until everybody are dead on both sides?

Or, should we at least try to solve this in a modern civilized manner?
I understand your feelings, and if someone bombed my relatives I would most probably feel exactly the same thing, no question about that = "operation berserk".

But the question Hamas should ask themselves – Does it work? If not, is there any hope it will work in the future?

And the answerer is NO is both cases, a literally "dead end". IT DOES NOT WORK.

And I also think you should ask yourself (living on the outside) if you in your country prefer a "medieval society", where the law is "Eye for an Eye", and "Blood Feud" is practiced? Or do you prefer a modern civilized society with civilized laws?

Personally, I fully understand the "berserk feelings", but I also fully understand the immense complications of a "medieval system".

If you try to occupy the land of people that were already living there and you do it by force don't expect any thing good from them i never said that hamas is a group of angles and the thing is that whenever Israel retaliates its targets are schools, residential areas, and mosques or if not that they would bulldoze the houses of the Palestinians now how many "terrorist" have they killed doing all those savage acts? and as for the civelized soutions there have been such attempts by the UN but none of it has effected the policies of Israel

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&s...sg=AFQjCNFCHe-f9OBIilvlevnT-HQtted_sQ&cad=rja

And as you know more about this than me, maybe you could explain to me why Fatah does not have the same 'problems' with Israel as Hamas? And why are Hamas killing members of Fatah?

The story of fatah mostly revolves around YASIR ARAFAT the founder of fatah and i don't know if you knew this or not but that man spent most of his life fighting Israel so Israel DID had problems with fatah before the Olso accords which happened in early 1990s and even after that Israel had problems with Arafat he even mentined that he could not sleep in one place on two straight nights because of the fear of assasination BY ISRAEL and that is AFTER the negotiations have taken place and after his death Israel was able to manipulate fatah to their own good so why would they have any problems with fatah NOW?
why is hamas killing fatah members? well i don't know the exact reason but they are both political parties and both are armed and they have completely different views so you can see that coming and only hamas is not guilty here fatah has also shown a lot of aggression and killed hamas members but the tragedy is that its always about hamas and fatah or other political parties but the ones who really suffer in the cross fire are the palestinians.

 

[nismaratwork]

In practical every body follows the same path.., morality in international actions should be and must be present but here is the difference of religion begins to show but the real embarrassment for me would be to admit that not even one Muslim nation actually bother to care about the moral values when he make any decision take Egypt and SA for example its actually the system that turns a leader into a RULER who never cares to think about what is right and wrong morally...,but nobody is willing to change the system so basically you are right no matter which religion HUMANS are mostly hypocrites with just a few good men.

Should be, yes, but I'm afraid I just can't believe it; I DO think about right and wrong, and generally when I have a decision I try to make the one that is moral. My own decisions do NOT have international scope however, and I've found that if I apply moral doctrine to the world at large, I just hate it.

You can look at the video I just posted and conclude that those are bad people, bad to the core. You could look at it and conclude that they're good people acting in the interests of their government. I see neither, and all that matters is that a woman was dragged away screaming for her life and her rights as a person in front of the entire world's media.

Does the religion matter? Rape and atrocities ALWAYS happen in war, although modern military tend to minimize this, you've seen US servicemen and women cross that line too. I guess I could do what a lot of people in my end of the world do, and assume that Islam is some barbaric religion and this is proof. I don't believe that either, and I don't believe any religion is any better or worse than the people who participate in it.

So, do I conclude that Libyans or Arabs, or North Africans are good/bad/ugly? No... I just know how I feel about those men and women who dragged that woman away, and the men who hurt her in the first place. As you might say, I can't judge souls, but I sure as hell can judge actions. Mubarak, Bin Ali, the entire damned House of Saud, and yeah the revolution of Iran that needs tons of Basij to keep its people "in line"... there are things wrong with these pictures.

It sure as hell isn't a religion, or moral system, because nowhere in th Hadith or Quran have I read that you're supposed to treat your fellow countryman, your brother, as less an a beast. I've seen dogs treated with more respect in countries where they are on the menu than I see Syria showing its peaceful protesters.

Yet in each case, don't these young people who want freedom from their own governments prove that it's NOT a "Muslim" or "Arab" or "Persian" problem? The problem is too complex for any single media outlet to be right or wrong...


Israel just hit Gaza with air strikes in retaliation, and no doubt the Palestinians will retaliate, then the Israelis will, and... so on. Israel is stronger, but it's not the sole aggressor, and the Palestinians can't keep fighting for a homeland that not even their Arab brothers will help them to reclaim.

Hell, you think if Arab nations had taken "back" Israel that they would have given it to the Palestinian people? Somehow, I doubt that; I think it would have been the less obvious mistreatment you see and saw in Egypt, Jordan, SA, Bahrain, Iran, Tunisia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere. I think you should look at what's happened to the native population of the USA (Indians/American Indians), and how well casinos and such have helped them as a WHOLE.

When people like those who ran Fatah make a career out of a lost cause, like the IRA did, they're not doing it for their people. When they make money, it's not for their people, and when they gain recognition and status its theirs alone and maybe some cronies.

You see, the other side of this is that I don't claim moral SUPERIORITY over these countries or their people; I don't think the USA, with 1.5+ million people in prison, a horrific mental health system, and our habit of selling arms to both sides of any conflict we can get our hands on is MORAL. I don't think that Israel is moral, I don't think that morality is a property of nations or large groups.

It's the recognition that we're all just a stone's throw away from being the (insert religion/political ideology here) version of Afghanistan in more parts of the world than not, says it all. The entire Middle East is a history of occupation, conquest, war, and violent change. The history of all of the Americas is the same, just a lot more one-sided and with probably the worst outcome of all time (I am thinking of south-central-north-America... all of it).

If you ask yourself who lived where you do now, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, years ago it turns out that we'll all occupying someone's land to one remove or another. That argument doesn't work for me, and it leads nowhere except: The winner rules. If that's some kind of morality, I must be missing something... Islam spread at sword-point, or even ahead of that... so did Christianity once it got going, and Judaism (when it was around the same age) was pretty hard and legalistic and 'pointy' too.

What's different about the Palestinians except that they're a recent conquest, and they'd rather die than accept what's already happened? You can fight the inevitable, but unfortunately the inevitable fights back, and you lose more of what you were as a people.

 

[FizixFreak]

Does the religion matter? Rape and atrocities ALWAYS happen in war, although modern military tend to minimize this,

Really? does the word abu ghraib rings a bell...

So, do I conclude that Libyans or Arabs, or North Africans are good/bad/ugly? No... I just know how I feel about those men and women who dragged that woman away, and the men who hurt her in the first place. As you might say, I can't judge souls, but I sure as hell can judge actions. Mubarak, Bin Ali, the entire damned House of Saud, and yeah the revolution of Iran that needs tons of Basij to keep its people "in line"... there are things wrong with these pictures.

It sure as hell isn't a religion, or moral system, because nowhere in th Hadith or Quran have I read that you're supposed to treat your fellow countryman, your brother, as less an a beast. I've seen dogs treated with more respect in countries where they are on the menu than I see Syria showing its peaceful protesters

If you ask yourself who lived where you do now, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, years ago it turns out that we'll all occupying someone's land to one remove or another. That argument doesn't work for me, and it leads nowhere except: The winner rules. If that's some kind of morality, I must be missing something... Islam spread at sword-point, or even ahead of that... so did Christianity once it got going, and Judaism (when it was around the same age) was pretty hard and legalistic and 'pointy' too.

About Iran well i have already said that they can be too aggressive and strict some times and they have behaved that way the real problem with Iran is that after shah left economicaly iran was left alone in the world because of the sanctions their citizens are now allowed to visit only a few countries the passport of iran that was very valueble in the past is considered nothing now so of course there is frustration in the iranian people because of that and now iran can't go back to the age of the shah there is no way back so sometimes the government have to use force to impose their policies its a complicated situation and the iranian president is in the position of ME where there are not much choices.

There is a difference between occupation and migration and why must the Palestinians suffer for some thing that happened some 60-70 years ago? i hope you understand what i am talking about.

The Islamic empire might have spread by the use of sword but not Islam(as a religion) it self actually the islamic world and islam it self must be seen as different entities to fully understand this matter i would talk more on this subject but i guess you and the mentors would be annoyed by it.

Wow! you have read quran and hadith great..., feel free to ask me any questions on this i would try me best to answer them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Really? does the word abu ghraib rings a bell...

Yeah, and compared to the ongoing standard practices of most POLICE in the ME, that's "minimal". Would you rather be on the wrong side of the US military, or the SA Vice&Virtue cops? I'd rather be in freaking Gitmo!

Anyway, minimized means just that... less than you would in a less disciplined force.

About Iran well i have already said that they can be too aggressive and strict some times and they have behaved that way the real problem with Iran is that after shah left economicaly iran was left alone in the world because of the sanctions their citizens are now allowed to visit only a few countries the passport of iran that was very valueble in the past is considered nothing now so of course there is frustration in the iranian people because of that and now iran can't go back to the age of the shah there is no way back so sometimes the government have to use force to impose their policies its a complicated situation and the iranian president is in the position of ME where there are not much choices.

There is the matter of them taking the USA embassy and staff hostage man, it wasn't the brightest move in the world to make. Beyond that, you have an oppressive group that treats their own people like dirt... there's little worse than a million or so Basij with a license to torture, disappear people, beat, kill, etc.

As for the Iranian president, he's a figurehead for the religious leadership that could have him removed as easily as they installed him. If you judge a people by how they treat each other, Iran is in BAD shape.

[There is a difference between occupation and migration and why must the Palestinians suffer for some thing that happened some 60-70 years ago? i hope you understand what i am talking about.

They have to because it's already happened, they already lost. I understand the morality of what you're talking about, but that they're the latest to be evicted from that particular bit of land is neither new or news. They're part of a cycle of ongoing conquest, failure, occupation, and re-conquering. It's not fun, it's not nice, but it's older than our concepts of political and human rights.

Why should American Indians (Native Americans) be consigned to a poor life and eventual genetic extinction? No good reason except that Europe decided they liked them dead better than they liked them alive, and every colonist since agreed. It's arguably the worst thing that's happened in the last few centuries; while WWII was horrendous, even that doesn't compare in terms of being SUCCESSFUL genocide.

How far back do we go with Israel?... before Islam? Before Christianity? Before Judaism? I suppose in a general sense the world should be Africa's and the ME's. I wouldn't hold your breath on that, because the reality is that if you want to look back 60 years, you might as well look back more. A people who conquered were conquered... it's an old story, so what makes Palestine special except that people generally dislike Jews and Israelis?

[The Islamic empire might have spread by the use of sword but not Islam(as a religion) it self actually the Islamic world and Islam it self must be seen as different entities to fully understand this matter i would talk more on this subject but i guess you and the mentors would be annoyed by it.

Islam, as you know, is law, religion, lifestyle all together. You can't separate the empire form the law, and you can't separate the law from the faith. Sharia as you know, is not a choice in Islam, it's supposed to be direct instructions from god. Spreading one, is spreading the other if it's to make any sense.

[Wow! you have read Quran and Hadith great..., feel free to ask me any questions on this i would try me best to answer them.

Of course! How could I possibly be agnostic without reading the scriptures of many people? Besides, I may not agree with Islam any more than I do with any religion, but in every religion there is plenty of good information. That said, a reading doesn't make me a scholar, but it's enough to realize that the Hadith is essentially a thing of trust: A who knew B, who was brother to C, who was a faithful servant of the prophet Muhammad, and A believes that X is the right idea.

I find it interesting especially because the Quran itself is clear: this is the word of god, not interpreted, but copied perfectly. To stray is no worse than in other religions which posit a merciful god, but unlike others there is less room to interpret. You can't say that something in the Quran is a parable, because it's supposed to be divine instructions, not a divine inspiration mediated by humans.

In my limited experience, I've seen how this puts Muslims in conflict with the modern world (not war/terrorism conflict), because a heck of a lot of it is just wrong by Islamic standards. It strikes me as a difficult balance to keep, but it goes a long way to explaining why the Sunni-Shiite divide isn't a small issue. Rather, it represents an intolerable dichotomy of interpretation when in theory the religion states clearly that there is nothing to be interpreted, only followed.

I've tried to discuss contradictions in the Quran before, and in my experience that leads to upset and quarrel. A pious Muslim isn't going to believe in such a thing, will use the Hadith to explain why a contradiction is not a contradiction. I'm no Islamic scholar, so who am I to say otherwise, but it seems to be something that deeply disturbs the Muslims I've met.

So... I have one question: How do you live according to a religion that is based on utter obedience to the unadulterated word of god, and still live in a world that is largely NOT in accord with those beliefs and principles? Not drinking, performing the Hajj, praying 5 times a day... this isn't hard to believe, and I've seen how unobtrusive most of the pillars are. On the other hand, Islam holds that women are fundamentally LESS than men, made less, and I can't accept that, and never will. I've seen how trying to be faithful to that kind of thing tears apart kind-hearted, well educated, and modern Muslim men.
ref: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Women must obey men..." Sura 2:228 , "Men are a 'degree' above women," so how are rights equal, which stated in the same Sura?

Finally, and this is the nail in the coffin for me, not to reject Islam, but why I could never accept the Quran as truly the word of a god: Sura 4:34

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

I've read at at least half a dozen translations, and they all agree: men over women, period. Now, in practice in the west, that's still often the way women are treated, but to make that a religious and legal reality by divine decree? No, I cannot accept that, and that's the problem; I think plenty of what Islam has to say is worth listening to, but you aren't supposed to take it bit by bit: all or nothing, non-Muslim, Muslim, or Taqfir.


Anyway, I've gone off topic, but I've never discussed this with a Pakistani man before, and you're very reasonable. I don't doubt or challenge your piety and faith, I'm speaking only of my own issues with it, as a non-Muslim, as an agnostic in general. I don't put, "Peace and blessings be upon him", because it would be a lie from me, not that I wouldn't wish that for anyone, but I'm no Muslim and no pretender.

Don't worry, I'm not going to rail about modesty cultures... the Quran is pretty clear about modesty, and nowhere does it say women need to wear a sack or be accompanied by a male; that is cultural to protect virtue. I think it's WAY overboard, as women are not considered chattel in Sharia, and frankly their honor or virtue is their's to lose or not (again, speaking in Islamic terms, not my own judgment).

 

[nismaratwork]

Now THIS is good news! Truly surprising as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/27/libya.beaten.woman/index.html?hpt=C1

 

[alt]

Nismar - I probably shouldn’t stick my nose into the matter between you and DA. Still, it leaps out .. I can almost touch the anger you were feeling, and can also speculate at the remorse DA may well be feeling. So, what the heck ..

There is no doubt you’ve been wrongly aggrieved. Firstly, some comments about your recent responses;

You said;
I do NOT speak Japanese, I've claimed (and do) understand some spoken Japanese. Wow... what a claim

This is quite plausible. I speak some 50 words or so in Italian. However, given that I’ve had much association with Italians over the years, I can understand nearly everything that’s said to me in Italian.

You said;
.. Sheiks .. are about as rare as rabbits, and come in varieties; political, religious, etc...

Again, very plausible. I recall booking into the Ramses Hilton in Cairo years ago. There was a wealthy Kuwait family celebrating a wedding in the grand ballroom. Half the males there seemed to be Sheiks - what, in their glittering fine array, ceremonial daggers ‘n all. Later, in the ‘Pharaohs Loft’ on the top floor, with a view way out to the Giza plateau and the pyramids, I got talkin’ to a couple of, umm, Sheiks. Young fellows, not over 30 - one was a IT worker - the other owned a grocery store in Kuwait .. Sheiks they thought themselves as, nonetheless.

You said;
Benjamin Netanyahu is not a 'close personal friend', I said I MET him, and spoke to him.

This too is not an unusual thing. Contacts like this happen. Example, my sisters sister in law was office secretary to the Ministerial Office of our ex Prime Minister, John Howard. Her husband owned and operated a rather swish restaurant at which I ate regularly, and which the Liberal Party (John Howard’s) occasionally booked for party related functions. Through these, I met and spoke to JH several times - whilst he was PM.

More;
Travel, work, family, friends ..

So much of what you say on this bears striking similarities to things I’ve experienced. Nothing implausible here.

Claims of expertise ..

I pay little attention to such claims or lack thereof, and usually evaluate a person by his actions rather than his claims. In any case, I can’t recall an instance where you ‘claimed’ too much.

Then, you said;
I'm not waiting upon your pleasure however, to defend myself from what amounts to libellous idiocy; consider this a simple first step.

Nismar, these are anonymous internet forums. The Law Of Torts .. Defamation, Libel .. Yes, you hear a good deal about one party suing another as a consequence of internet defamation. But if anything, that’s more ‘bark’ than ‘bite’, and probably put out for the purposes of promoting good etiquette. There has rarely being a successful prosecution even in cases where the defamed party was KNOWN at large. Even rarer (if at all existent), is a successful prosecution by one ANONYMOUS party against another ANONYMOUS party. How do you traduce a username ?

But even if you could successfully prosecute, would you ? Would you prosecute someone who acted (no matter how wrongly) in a condition precedent on anonymity of both parties ?

You are a very passionate, strongly opinionated man. The mark of an even stronger man, IMO, is to take a deep breath when aggrieved as you have been, and let the anger diffuse.

He called you a liar and a pretender. Have you or I not done as bad on other occasions - at least one occasion in our past ?

Let the anger dissipate out of your system.

I know the righteousness in you calls for retribution, but think about what you’ve been saying here about the Middle East problem. Good people, acting in, retaliating in, haste. To what avail ? What got better ? What will get better for YOU here ? Anyone with half a brain here, can see who’s been right .. who’s been wrong ..

Perhaps in time, DA will front and apologise. However, even if he does not, you are then vindicated all the more by that very glaring act of omission on his part !

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't mean libelous as in, "I'm suing for character defamation", but simply as the best descriptor of what was done. What makes me so angry, and you're right... I'm pissed... is that DA clearly thought I was full of it for a LOOOONG time, and never said it to me privately or otherwise. How can you be pals online, or off, how can you have a meaningful exchange if you secretly think someone is a lying sack, and you don't bother to confront that?

I can understand why anyone would doubt me, or anyone else online. I've had an odd life (sounds like you have too), but nothing odder than many an "army brat" to use one very common example. I'm not that for the record, not that it's bad (a little lonely I'd guess), but I'd guess something like that and ask before I leaped to "load of dung".

So... no, not only would I NOT prosecute, and lacking a cause of action it would be a laughable proposition anyway, and I'm already far less angry than I was. I'm quite honest in what I said, I'm disappointed. Yes, I care about my image to some degree, I'm not beyond that by any means, but even if he came back and DID bother to apologize (or not)... I would find it very hard to trust him.

What good would it do if I lied to FizixFreak about my views on the middle east? He'd be happier perhaps, but he'd lose the chance to challenge my views, and we'd both lose the whole point of this site: to learn, to understand each other, and to share information. What good would it do if Proton Soup pretended that he didn't despise my views on the issue of Israel? Nothing... nothing at all. It's GOOD to be honest in these matters, although I appreciate the measure of restraint on the part of Proton and Fizix (they could just call me a name and walk away), I appreciate the honest interaction even more.

I don't mind you "butting in" as you put it, or as I would put it, trying to be reasonable in the face of anger on one hand and absence on the other. Besides... you have a good point especially in your second to last lines... what good comes of this either? As you say, vindication is not really the issue; at the stupid cost of that anonymity DA knows he's wrong, and his apology or absence both act toward the same end for me.

What I regret, is that he felt the need to (forgive me Berkeman) B* me, then blow-up and do this in the middle of a thread. I regret that now I have to think a few extra times before sharing any personal accounts because hey, maybe it's just seen as bull, and then why share it at all?

Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues? In short, because I considered him a pal, he was able to drive the knife home far deeper than most, on or offline. So, I wonder, what is it about me that inspired that kind of deception, then explosion, or was it me at all? I'm left having no way to know, and torn with some measure of regret that I offered a measure of trust to someone who thought/thinks I'm essentially a pathological liar.


For one other reason I can't get into, that stings especially because while it isn't true, there is a kernel of deception in the anonymity of this forum, and the internet. A "friend" is a general term instead of name-dropping or compromising the anonymity of another, or revealing the nature of the relationship. This isn't, after all, a forum where people want or need to hear my or anyone's life-story... it's about information and learning, not authority. Have I failed in my attempt to share those personal bits, balanced against yapping away?

*sigh*

I have taken that breath alt, but by deciding to run instead of stand, DA has left me with nothing to do, BUT breath deeply and consider all of the angles.

Anyway... thank you alt... I don't suppose that any of this is on topic, and some do so love to pick over such exchanges and report... still... the public nature of the initial slam makes it hard to stick it all in PMs, and making a separate thread is beyond even my degree of arrogance. I'll think about all that you've said, and the wider implications beyond this event.

Ah well...

On an even less pleasant front, it's unclear if that woman who claims to have been gang-raped in Libya IS actually free. The claims now are rather... chilling; that she's in the primary compound in Tripoli, that it's a criminal matter now... etc.

Bottom line: nobody has seen or heard from her since she was dragged away like a quarrelsome animal. Putting pragmatism aside for a brief moment, and recognizing that worse happens ALL of the time..

...this is heartbreaking, infuriating, and so very wrong. That with all of the power the world's major forces wield, one woman who braves the heart of 'enemy' territory just to be heard and seen, to put a face on the faceless cannot be protected or saved. It's he face of every woman in every country who's had rape used as a weapon of terror, or simply because people CAN, and to be fair, not just women.

What we have in the ME is an unbearable state of affairs, with Egypt having changed less than many might have hoped, still torturing 'political prisoners' and getting ready to outlaw demonstrations. You live a good life alt, I have a pretty good life... most people here do, or they wouldn't be here. Still, for all of that, it's back to national interests... there is no other way without simply bathing in the horror of what IS, compared to a visceral sense of what should NOT be.

I don't pretend that humans are built for a Utopia, but we can do better than gang rapes and beatings, shelling our own people, firing rockets into Israel, and Israel leveling homes and bombing; without Pakistan and India at daggers drawn with nuclear ordinance ready to go.

I can't even list everything here, and it would be pointless to do so. Moments like this however, when we talk about kinship, brotherhood, national pride, morality... and then see the world follows none of that... it's terribly hard not to despair or hate.

Add a tsunami, and a grumpy avocado, and it's just a step too far. I intellectualize things, but I'm not actually devoid of emotions.

 

[nismaratwork]

Dis badness mon, pure Babylon working no I an I want a pat o dis!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/28/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T2

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Witness: Syrian security forces move to disperse protesters in Daraa
NEW: Mysterious black-shirted men terrorize residents in Latakia, witness says
Daraa is extremely tense, according to a witness
U.N.: At least 37 people have died in clashes between protesters and security forces

Libya is also rather volatile...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/28/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T2

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Rebels enter Gadhafi loyalist territory, then flee gunfire, rebels say
A rebel says Gadhafi forces raised a white flag, then shot them
NATO's chief says the aim in Libya is to protect people, not arm them
Libyan state television claims civilians are injured from Sabha bombing

 

[alt]

Oh don't get me wrong,

First, let me say I'm glad you didn't take my post as interference - I was on the cusp of making it or not making it .. but finally decided to do so. Why, you might ask .. well, probably because enmity (by any party - I'm not accusing you of it) shouldn't be left hanging - it is counterproductive to progress, and will always fester in the silent background.

You said;
Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues?

I don't think so .. No, and No. What I think it is, is that you have strong opinions, make them, and back them up. Some people find strong opinions confronting. Tough ! It's up to them to challange them - or not.

I appreciate the forthrightness in which you've commented in about the Middle East. Again, your comments go one or two steps further than some folks comfort zone - and challange the 'Jew/Arab .. hater/lover' paradigm they find themselves in. Oh well - what did that brilliant Arabic philosopher (can't recall his name at the mo) say ? "Pain and sorrow is the breaking of the shell that encompasses our understanding"

Finally, I am particulary struck by some comments of yours a while back on this thread ..

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say .. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality.

Very few people have the audacity, the perception and the honesty to put it thus. Too much out of their comfort zone - by many leagues. But it is so. Each of us is only a moment away from being a monster if the occasion calls.

 

[nismaratwork]

First, let me say I'm glad you didn't take my post as interference - I was on the cusp of making it or not making it .. but finally decided to do so. Why, you might ask .. well, probably because enmity (by any party - I'm not accusing you of it) shouldn't be left hanging - it is counterproductive to progress, and will always fester in the silent background.

You said;
Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues?

I don't think so .. No, and No. What I think it is, is that you have strong opinions, make them, and back them up. Some people find strong opinions confronting. Tough ! It's up to them to challange them - or not.

I appreciate the forthrightness in which you've commented in about the Middle East. Again, your comments go one or two steps further than some folks comfort zone - and challange the 'Jew/Arab .. hater/lover' paradigm they find themselves in. Oh well - what did that brilliant Arabic philosopher (can't recall his name at the mo) say ? "Pain and sorrow is the breaking of the shell that encompasses our understanding"

Finally, I am particulary struck by some comments of yours a while back on this thread ..

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say .. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality.

Very few people have the audacity, the perception and the honesty to put it thus. Too much out of their comfort zone - by many leagues. But it is so. Each of us is only a moment away from being a monster if the occasion calls.

Thank you alt... I'm not good at taking compliments, praise or anything like that, but thank you. I certainly don't see you as interfering, just trying to help both DA and myself, and the atmosphere in general. I take you at your word, and I thank you... I do hope that I haven't burned too many bridges in my comments about the Middle East.

Still... it's so complex, and if people didn't realize that before, surely the populist attempt to change their fates should tell the tale. We are all SO much more alike than not, but seem to spend endless energy drawing lines between each other.

He's a Jew so he must be blah. She's a Christian so she must do blah. They're Muslim and they all are blah.

I call Bull. We are different in some key ways based more on economic class and where in the world we are, but still more alike than not. It's what makes the actions of all involved so horrific, we may as well be cutting our own wrists as shooting our neighbours.

Did you see the video of the Libyan woman claiming rape?... another woman put a bag over her head. The world is mad.

 

[alt]

Nismar - had drafted this last night - just had the chance to post it now;

Thank you alt... I'm not good at taking compliments, praise or anything like that, but thank you. I certainly don't see you as interfering, just trying to help both DA and myself, and the atmosphere in general. I take you at your word, and I thank you... I do hope that I haven't burned too many bridges in my comments about the Middle East.

If speaking your mind HAS to result in burning your bridges, then what alternative do you have ? You’re going to burn them sooner or later, or live a lie - a worse fate.

Still... it's so complex, and if people didn't realize that before, surely the populist attempt to change their fates should tell the tale. We are all SO much more alike than not, but seem to spend endless energy drawing lines between each other.

He's a Jew so he must be blah. She's a Christian so she must do blah. They're Muslim and they all are blah.

I call Bull. We are different in some key ways based more on economic class and where in the world we are, but still more alike than not. It's what makes the actions of all involved so horrific, we may as well be cutting our own wrists as shooting our neighbours.

One the news today - a village in Japan .. A preschool of about 100 kiddies, 6 klm in from the coast. A 6 metre wall of black water swept it all away. The poor, poor parents go there daily. You can see the altered state of consciousness on their faces .. sifting through the rubble in a pitiful, heart wrenching attempt to find the meanest of mementos of their forever gone children .. a pencil case .. a shoe .. anything ..

But that was a natural event - beyond human control. How much more destitute then, does the piteous recognition make us feel .. the piteous recognition that men visit far worse upon each other by choice ?

Having connections in the ME and in Europe, I too share your keen pain concerning the ME. Why does this happen ? Why does this millennia old feud continue ? Some of the most cultured people on earth, ready to become monsters at a moments notice, and to visit unspeakable horror upon each other. Men, young men who would have in different circumstances, sat down in a piazza and drunk coffee, oogled at pretty young things ..

ready to gut each other at a moments notice ..

Things thought too long can be no longer thought, I'm afraid. Maybe my simplistic view of the world isn't far off - the primary motivators of human affairs are GREED and FEAR. Intellect, culture, sophistication .. these are vapid things when greed and fear are stirred sufficiently in men's minds.

I think it has always been that way.


The gyres! the gyres! Old Rocky Face, look forth;
Things thought too long can be no longer thought,
For beauty dies of beauty, worth of worth,
And ancient lineaments are blotted out.
Irrational streams of blood are staining earth;
Empedocles has thrown all things about;
Hector is dead and there's a fire in Troy;
We that look on but laugh in tragic joy.

The Gyres - William Butler Yeats

 

[WhoWee]

It occurred to me that with the hand-over of power to NATO, President Obama is giving them discretionary spending over $1 million (each) missles - does that bother anyone else?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

"Netanyahu-gate": I could go into the humiliating details, but I won’t. Overreactions and infractions speaks for itself, further comments superfluous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rE0-ek6MZA"