Consistency of the speed of light

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Einstein's second postulate asserts that the speed of light is constant across all inertial frames, serving as a foundational element of special relativity. While many texts treat this postulate as an accepted truth, discussions reveal that it cannot be experimentally proven, only consistently observed. Some argue that the postulate is necessary for the logical structure of relativity, while others suggest that alternative theories, like ether theory, could also explain observations. The debate emphasizes the distinction between a postulate's acceptance for theoretical consistency and its empirical verification. Overall, the conversation highlights ongoing inquiries into the nature of light's speed and the frameworks that support our understanding of physics.
  • #31
Aether said:
"Thus the much debated question concerning the empirical equivalence of special relativity and an ether theory taking into account time dilation and length contraction but maintaining absolute simultaneity can be answered affirmatively." - R. Mansouri & R.U. Sexl, A Test Theory of Special Relativity: I. Simultaneity and Clock Synchronization, General Relativity and Gravitation, Vol. 8, No. 7 (1977), pp. 497-513.

Look at the date of that paper, and look at the date of ALL the citations I have given. Now, use the "physics" from that paper and derive for me how you can show the consistency of those experimental results with that predicted by the paper. Note that in a number of the experiments, there are distinct variations to the test being done that approach the issue from a very different angle. These are not just your run-of-the-mill MM experiments.

I'd settle for that instead of asking for the formulation of a new set of "mechanics" based on such an ether.

Zz.
 
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  • #32
ZapperZ said:
Look at the date of that paper, and look at the date of ALL the citations I have given. Now, use the "physics" from that paper and derive for me how you can show the consistency of those experimental results with that predicted by the paper. Note that in a number of the experiments, there are distinct variations to the test being done that approach the issue from a very different angle. These are not just your run-of-the-mill MM experiments.

I'd settle for that instead of asking for the formulation of a new set of "mechanics" based on such an ether.

Zz.
Which, if any, of your citations do not reference the paper that I cited? Which, if any, of your citations explicitly contradict the paper that I cited? Still, in the past I have collected as many of the papers cited in your journal (and their cited references) as I could get my hands on, and appreciate the list that you keep.
 
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  • #33
"Once correctly and explicitly phrased, the principles of SRT allow for a wide range of `theories' that differ from the standard SRT only for the difference in the chosen synchronization procedures, but are wholly equivalent to SRT in predicting empirical facts."

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0409105
 
  • #34
HallsofIvy said:
There is a difference between a "postulate" in mathematics and a "postulate" in physics. In fact those blasted physicists should know better than to use the word "postulate" at all. I suspect that those who use it in a physics book are really saying "I don't want to bother to explain how this has be shown".

The fact that the speed of light is constant in all frames goes back to the Michaelson-Morley experiment- it and versions of it are probably one of the most "repeated" experiments in the history of science.
Ehh, I understand your objection, but what else do you call it, though? Logically, you must start with something that is assumed to be absolutely true before you can build on it, otherwise you become burdened with proving every theory related to your new theory, all at the same time. It would make for some awfully long papers... Nothing would ever get done.

To a knowledgeable scientist, this isn't an issue - they already know that the speed of light has been measured half a billion times, so there is no reason to bother explaining it when writing a new theory.
 
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  • #35
Aether said:
I am not playing a game. I don't rule out the possibility that I could be entirely wrong, but I did quote a strong reference in my initial post and you have ignored that.
The game you are playing is clinging to the short end of the every-experiment-ever-performed stick. Every experiment ever performed on the subject requires no ether, but you'd prefer to assume that there are some experiments we haven't thought of yet that might show it does exist.

Do you play slots...?

Yeah, I'm an engineer, not a physicist, but the way I see the issue is that as science progresses, the "box" that ether theory can fit into gets smaller and smaller and aether theorists bob and weave and back away further and further into the depths of that box, never wanting to acknowledge that there is an entire universe outside that box that they'd prefer not to live in.
 
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  • #36
russ_watters said:
The game you are playing is clinging to the short end of the every-experiment-ever-performed stick.
As long as there remains a short end to cling to, then somebody should; but the ether end of the stick isn't really as short as some people say.

russ_watters said:
Every experiment ever performed on the subject requires no ether, but you'd prefer to assume that there are some experiments we haven't thought of yet that might show it does exist.

Do you play slots...?
98% of the matter-energy in the universe is still missing...isn't a 98% payout considered to be a pretty good deal when it comes to playing slots?

russ_watters said:
Yeah, I'm an engineer, not a physicist, but the way I see the issue is that as science progresses, the "box" that ether theory can fit into gets smaller and smaller and aether theorists bob and weave and back away further and further into the depths of that box, never wanting to acknowledge that there is an entire universe outside that box that they'd prefer not to live in.
Ether theory is empirically equivalent to SR. It is flat wrong to claim that the constancy of the speed of light has ever been proved by experiment.

What's the difference? Assuming that the speed of light is constant, then x_0=\int{c(t)dt} reduces to x_0=c_0t...but if the speed of light is not constant then these two equations do not give the same result for x_0. Directly measuring x_0 is the future experiment that I have in mind.
 
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  • #37
Aether said:
Which, if any, of your citations do not reference the paper that I cited? Which, if any, of your citations explicitly contradict the paper that I cited? Still, in the past I have collected as many of the papers cited in your journal (and their cited references) as I could get my hands on, and appreciate the list that you keep.

You seem to be ignoring what it is being cited for, and what these experiments are testing. For example, the Lipa paper clearly mentioned that they have come up with very severe limitations of the possible anisotropy of the M-S model. Furthermore, in a comment by Bay and White[1], and responded by Riis et al.[2], there clearly are questionable issues whether M-S model can account for Riis's 2-photon absoroption experiment.

However, in all of the papers that I cited, NOT ONE of them reach the conclusion that the postulate of SR has failed, and that they have found the extra terms of M-S model. NONE! You seem to use the fact that since M-S paper was cited, it has progressed beyond just being called a "test theory". It hasn't!

Zz.

[1] Z. Bay and J.A. White PRL v.62, p.841 (1989).
[2] Riis et al PRL v.62, p.842 (1989).
 
  • #38
ZapperZ said:
You seem to be ignoring what it is being cited for, and what these experiments are testing. For example, the Lipa paper clearly mentioned that they have come up with very severe limitations of the possible anisotropy of the M-S model. Furthermore, in a comment by Bay and White[1], and responded by Riis et al.[2], there clearly are questionable issues whether M-S model can account for Riis's 2-photon absoroption experiment.
OK, I'll look at that, but that exchange is 16 years old; why hasn't it been pursued since then?

ZapperZ said:
However, in all of the papers that I cited, NOT ONE of them reach the conclusion that the postulate of SR has failed, and that they have found the extra terms of M-S model. NONE! You seem to use the fact that since M-S paper was cited, it has progressed beyond just being called a "test theory". It hasn't!.
Aren't they all looking for spatial anisotropy parameters? Which of these papers were looking for the three temporal parameters of the M-S model? The temporal coordinate x_0 can distinguish between SR and ether theory, but all of these experiments are looking only at x_1, \ x_2, \ and \ x_3 in vacuum.
 
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  • #39
The concept of speed depends on your definitions of distance and time. For an object that is static relative to the observer, these definitions are clear and unambiguous -- our pre-relativistic notions suffice. For a moving object, you need to have some mechanism for synchronising two clocks a distance apart; you cannot measure the time taken to travel from A to B unless the clocks at A and B (both static relative to the observer) have been synchronised in some way. And you can't measure the length of an object unless you measure the positions of each end "at the same time", whatever that means.

Therefore you cannot measure the speed of light from A to B unless you have already agreed a convention for synchronising clocks. The method that Special Relativity adopts assumes that the speed of light is constant. So if you measure the speed of light using this convention you are guaranteed to find it is constant. Within SR the speed of light is constant by definition. It's impossible to disprove unless you redefine what you mean by "speed" (or "distance" or "time").

However, you can unambiguously define the average speed of an object that travels from A to B and back to A again, relative to A. The total distance traveled and the total time taken can be measured using a single clock (A's) without any need for a synchronisation procedure. Experimental evidence does indeed confirm that the average speed of light from A to B to A is constant.

Let (t_0, x_0, y_0, z_0) be an inertial frame. Define a new set of coordinates as follows:

t = t_0 / \gamma
x = \gamma (x_0 - v t_0)
y = y_0
z = z_0

(where \gamma is defined in the usual way as 1/\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}). Do the maths and you will find that in this coordinate system the (one-way) speed of light is not constant but average A-to-B-to-A speed is still c. And in this coordinate system, all clocks agree on what is "simultaneous". In a nutshell, this is Lorentz ether theory and it works. It's just a very ugly theory, compared with SR, because it's not at all symmetric and the equations get much more complicated. The coordinates are not all mutually orthogonal and its has non-diagonal metric tensor

ds^2 = dx^2 / \gamma^2 + 2 v dxdt + dy^2 + dz^2 - c^2 dt^2

I have just demonstrated that it is possible for the one-way speed of light to vary without deviating from the experimental evidence the two-way average speed of light is constant. But I've done by sleight-of-hand by redefining what I mean by "speed" which is the only way it can be done.
 
  • #40
DrGreg said:
In a nutshell, this is Lorentz ether theory and it works. It's just a very ugly theory, compared with SR, because it's not at all symmetric and the equations get much more complicated.
An ugly theory compared to SR, in the absence of any evidence for a locally preferred frame, OK. Constancy of the speed of light proven by experiment, NO.
 
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  • #41
Aether said:
OK, I'll look at that, but that exchange is 16 years old; why hasn't it been pursued since then?

Oh puhleeze. You're complaining about a 16-year old exchange while you're citing a paper that's 28 years old? I can play that game too. If the M-S theory is THAT old, why hasn't it been accepted more readily already by now?

Zz.
 
  • #42
ZapperZ said:
Oh puhleeze. You're complaining about a 16-year old exchange while you're citing a paper that's 28 years old?
You said that
ZapperZ said:
...there clearly are questionable issues whether M-S model can account for Riis's 2-photon absoroption experiment
So, with 16 years gone by since these "questionable issues" arose, is it not legitimate to ask where those threads lead to?

ZapperZ said:
I can play that game too. If the M-S theory is THAT old, why hasn't it been accepted more readily already by now?

Zz.
M-S theory is widely accepted; everyone who is publishing tests of local Lorentz invariance seems to be using it and nobody is knocking it. There are a few typos in it though, and I have seen where those errors have propagated through a few papers.
 
  • #43
Aether said:
M-S theory is widely accepted; everyone who is publishing tests of local Lorentz invariance seems to be using it and nobody is knocking it. There are a few typos in it though, and I have seen where those errors have propagated through a few papers.

A few words from http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html
Test Theories of SR
A test theory of SR is a generalization of the Lorentz transforms of SR using additional parameters. One can then analyze experiments using the test theory (rather than SR itself) and fit the parameters of the test theory to the experimental results. If the fitted parameter values differ significantly from the values corresponding to SR, then the experiment is inconsistent with SR. But more normally, such fits can show how well a given experiment confirms or disagrees with SR, and what the experimental accuracy is for doing so. This gives a general and tractable method of analysis which can be common to multiple experiments.

Different test theories differ in their assumptions about what form the transform equations could reasonably take. There are at present four test theories of SR:
Robertson,Rev. of Mod. Phys. 21, p378 (1949).
Edwards, Am. J. Phys. 31 (1963), p482.
Mansouri and Sexl, Gen. Rel. Grav. 8 (1977), p497, p515, p809.
Zhang, Special Relativity and its Experimental Foundations.​
Zhang discusses their interrelationships and presents a unified test theory encompassing the other three, but with a better and more interpretable parameterization. His discussion implies that there will be no more test theories of SR that are not reducible to one of the first three.
So, I think that it would be more correct to say that "M-S theory is widely accepted merely as a test theory of SR" (that is, a framework for testing SR).
 
  • #44
robphy said:
So, I think that it would be more correct to say that "M-S theory is widely accepted merely as a test theory of SR" (that is, a framework for testing SR).
Here's Zhang's own summary of his book: "In particular, the simultaneity problem and slow transport of clocks are investigated in detail by means of the test theories of special relativity. In the second part, variant types of experiments performed up to now are analyzed and compared to the predictions of special relativity. This shows that the experiments are a test of the two-way speed of light, but not of the one-way speed of light."

I ordered copy of Zhang, and hope that the promise of "a unified test theory encompassing the other three, but with a better and more interpretable parameterization" is fulfilled.
 
  • #45
Aether said:
You said thatSo, with 16 years gone by since these "questionable issues" arose, is it not legitimate to ask where those threads lead to?

M-S theory is widely accepted; everyone who is publishing tests of local Lorentz invariance seems to be using it and nobody is knocking it.

But not in the way YOU imagined it. The "extra terms" beyond SR in M-S theory has never cropped up. They have never been measured. And in none of the experimental papers I cited have there been any indication by the authors that these verify the existence of ANY ether, no matter how one "synchronizes" one's clock.

The conclusions in each of the papers are glaringly clear. Why you think this agrees with your ether point of view, I have no idea.

Zz.
 
  • #46
ZapperZ said:
But not in the way YOU imagined it. The "extra terms" beyond SR in M-S theory has never cropped up. They have never been measured. And in none of the experimental papers I cited have there been any indication by the authors that these verify the existence of ANY ether, no matter how one "synchronizes" one's clock.
All measurements are so far consistent with both SR and Lorentz ether theory (with the possible exception of the example from 1989 that you gave), but you are implying that all measurements select SR over Lorentz ether theory.

ZapperZ said:
The conclusions in each of the papers are glaringly clear. Why you think this agrees with your ether point of view, I have no idea.
The conclusions of each of the papers can't be stretched any farther than to say that SR is empirically equivalent to Lorentz ether theory (LET). What they fail to do is to select LET over SR, but you are claiming that they somehow select SR over LET and that is not true either.
 
  • #47
Aether said:
An ugly theory compared to SR, in the absence of any evidence for a locally preferred frame, OK. Constancy of the speed of light proven by experiment, NO.
Experiments never prove a theory true, they can only ever succeed or fail to disprove a theory.

So there is always the possibility that one day somebody will find circumstances in which the two-way speed of light is not constant. If that day ever comes then SR or GR will have been proven not be a valid model in those circumstances.

Theories are models of reality, not reality itself. They tend to make simplifying assumptions e.g. that friction can be ignored, or that speeds are slow relative to light, or that gravity can be neglected, or that matter is distributed as a continuous density (instead of being particulate). That doesn't invalidate the theory as long as you are aware of its limitations.

Maybe one day we will need to reinvent the ether at quantum level or in some other extreme circumstances. If that ever happens, relativity will still be a valid approximation in the circumstances that aren't extreme.
 
  • #48
A test theory of SR is a generalization of the Lorentz transforms of SR using additional parameters. …

Different test theories differ in their assumptions about what form the transform equations could reasonably take. There are at present four test theories of SR. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html
Tom Roberts is wrong. Guido Rizzi, Matteo Luca Ruggiero and Alessio Serafini are right. What Mansouri and Sexl have is just the Lorentz transformation with a more general synchronization procedure.

It is possible to reset the clocks of the Mansouri and Sexl synchronization and get back to the Lorentz transformation. It’s silly to call generic resynchronizations of the Lorentz transformation a generalization of SR.

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0409105
 
  • #49
SR and LET are empirically equivalent. It is impossible to prove SR by experiment, and impossible to disprove LET by experiment. So, I suspect that there is some philosophical principle that places the burden of proof on the shoulders of LET. That's fine, but it doesn't license the disciples of Einstein to claim that the constancy of the speed of light has been proven by experiment.
 
  • #50
Aether said:
All measurements are so far consistent with both SR and Lorentz ether theory (with the possible exception of the example from 1989 that you gave), but you are implying that all measurements select SR over Lorentz ether theory.

The conclusions of each of the papers can't be stretched any farther than to say that SR is empirically equivalent to Lorentz ether theory (LET). What they fail to do is to select LET over SR, but you are claiming that they somehow select SR over LET and that is not true either.

Then you have NOTHING! You are faced with a theory that has tons of verification, have been successful in a lot of applications, including the accurate correction to many band-structure calculations, etc... etc. Given two theories, and one that has been adopted universally and used in REAL application, you chose THE OTHER?

And you see nothing wrong with this?

Zz.
 
  • #51
Aether said:
SR and LET are empirically equivalent. It is impossible to prove SR by experiment, and impossible to disprove LET by experiment.

It is not! There are two extra terms in M-S theory regarding the ratio between c(\theta , v)/c. The Lipa et al. results have put severe limits on the value of those two extra terms! To claim no one has gone looking for it is false.

Zz.
 
  • #52
Aether said:
All measurements are so far consistent with both SR and Lorentz ether theory (with the possible exception of the example from 1989 that you gave), but you are implying that all measurements select SR over Lorentz ether theory.

The job of making experimental predictions should be the responsibility of the Lorentz Ether theorists.

Unfortunately, they appear to be a very diffuse group, who while they all use the same name, don't actually all believe the same thing.

If, as in one subsection of the LET group claims, there is no difference between LET and relativity, then it is not a different theory than relativity.

If, as in another subsection of the LET group claims, there is a difference between LET and relativity, it is (or should be) up to the LET theorists to pin down what experimental predictions the theory makes, so the theory can be tested.

Part of the problem is that I don't think LET actually has any qualified theorists who write refereed papers that one can point to as "the" LET theory, rather it has only a muddle of individuals who have somehow given the same name to their differing ideas.
 
  • #53
ZapperZ said:
It is not! There are two extra terms in M-S theory regarding the ratio between c(\theta , v)/c. The Lipa et al. results have put severe limits on the value of those two extra terms! To claim no one has gone looking for it is false.

Zz.
"Summarizing these results we may say that the following statement is in perfect agreement with all experimental evidence: A preferred system of reference, the ether system, exists." - Mansouri & Sexl I

"All experiments can be explained either on the basis of special relativity or by an ether theory incorporating time dilation. This demonstrates again the impossiblity of an "experimentum crucis" deciding between ether theories and the special theory of relativity." - Mansouri & Sexl - II

"First-order tests cannot be used to distinguish between special relativity and ether theories, as has sometimes been stated. No such "experimentum crucis" is possible in principle, since the two classes of theories can be transformed into one another by a change in conventions about clock synchronization..." - Mansouri & Sexl - II

"According to these authors this experiment [similar to the Michelson-Morley experiment] is able to decide between the special theory of relativity and an ether theory incorporating Lorentz contraction and time dilation. As we have shown quite generally in the first and second parts of this paper such a distinction is impossible in principle." - Mansouri & Sexl III
 
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  • #54
pervect said:
The job of making experimental predictions should be the responsibility of the Lorentz Ether theorists.

Unfortunately, they appear to be a very diffuse group, who while they all use the same name, don't actually all believe the same thing.

If, as in one subsection of the LET group claims, there is no difference between LET and relativity, then it is not a different theory than relativity.

If, as in another subsection of the LET group claims, there is a difference between LET and relativity, it is (or should be) up to the LET theorists to pin down what experimental predictions the theory makes, so the theory can be tested.

Part of the problem is that I don't think LET actually has any qualified theorists who write refereed papers that one can point to as "the" LET theory, rather it has only a muddle of individuals who have somehow given the same name to their differing ideas.
Very well said. I agree.
 
  • #55
I have scanned-in the three Mansouri & Sexl papers. If anyone is interested but doesn't have easy access to a library with the journal, let me know and I'll give you a web address where you can go to download the file (it is about 143MB); right click on the link, and save. It is in MS Word .doc format, and it comes from my working copy so please excuse that it has been heavilly highlighted and is somewhat marked up and wrinkled.
 
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  • #56
Aether said:
"Summarizing these results we may say that the following statement is in perfect agreement with all experimental evidence: A preferred system of reference, the ether system, exists." - Mansouri & Sexl I

"All experiments can be explained either on the basis of special relativity or by an ether theory incorporating time dilation. This demonstrates again the impossiblity of an "experimentum crucis" deciding between ether theories and the special theory of relativity." - Mansouri & Sexl - II

"First-order tests cannot be used to distinguish between special relativity and ether theories, as has sometimes been stated. No such "experimentum crucis" is possible in principle, since the two classes of theories can be transformed into one another by a change in conventions about clock synchronization..." - Mansouri & Sexl - II

"According to these authors this experiment [similar to the Michelson-Morley experiment] is able to decide between the special theory of relativity and an ether theory incorporating Lorentz contraction and time dilation. As we have shown quite generally in the first and second parts of this paper such a distinction is impossible in principle." - Mansouri & Sexl III

Then I suggest you or them write a rebuttal to the Lipa et al. paper in PRL, and a number of other papers that I cited. The Lipa paper has been out since 2003 and NO ONE has challenged either their interpretation or results. It takes nothing to whine about it on here. Put your name and reputation on the line and do it officially if you think there's any credibility in what you believe in.

Zz.
 
  • #57
ZapperZ said:
Then I suggest you or them write a rebuttal to the Lipa et al. paper in PRL, and a number of other papers that I cited. The Lipa paper has been out since 2003 and NO ONE has challenged either their interpretation or results. It takes nothing to whine about it on here. Put your name and reputation on the line and do it officially if you think there's any credibility in what you believe in.

Zz.
Zz, as I understand this, those two terms could be exactly what is predicted by SR and that still wouldn't select out SR over LET because the two theories transform into each other by a change in conventions about clock synchronization. Please stop referencing what I "believe in", and deal with the fact that SR and LET are empirically equivalent.

Lipa et al. references M-S without complaint, but they also reference two more recent (2001 & 2002) papers from Kostelecky & Mewes (KM) that are supposed to have an even more general transformation than M-S. I'll go to the library today and get the KM papers; if they are as thorough as M-S, then I'll be happy to start using them in their place.
 
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  • #58
Aether said:
Zz, as I understand this, those two terms could be exactly what is predicted by SR and that still wouldn't select out SR over LET because the two theories transform into each other by a change in conventions about clock synchronization. Please stop referencing what I "believe in", and deal with the fact that SR and LET are empirically equivalent.

"LET" is a name for a theory which is unfortunately not very well defined, as far as I can tell. If you've got references that have a definitive defintion of what the theory actually is, please do post. Note that I took a quick look at the link you did post, however it displayed scanned text on my screen running up and down, making it extremely hard to read. (I use 602 Text to read .doc format files, I don't know if that makes any difference or not). So I doubt I'll be reading it unless I find a way to make it run right-left.

While it is possible that one or more of the two papers you cite make an outright error, the more probable state of affairs is that they each have different defintions of exactly what "LET" really means (what the fundamental assumptions of the theory are).

I think more care needs to be taken to make sure that the authors are *really* talking about the same theory.

If we take your defintion of LET as "a theory that is mathematically equivalent to SR", then it really isn't very clear why you find LET interesting at all. If you find it easier to understand the theory in its new formulation, great, but the general tone of your question doesn't seem to be that of an enlightened person who is trying to explain a simpler way of doing something. Rather it seems like you are experiencing doubts about something, but the only thing that I can see to doubt is the details of the formulation of LET.
 
  • #59
pervect said:
"LET" is a name for a theory which is unfortunately not very well defined, as far as I can tell. If you've got references that have a definitive defintion of what the theory actually is, please do post. Note that I took a quick look at the link you did post, however it displayed scanned text on my screen running up and down, making it extremely hard to read. (I use 602 Text to read .doc format files, I don't know if that makes any difference or not). So I doubt I'll be reading it unless I find a way to make it run right-left.
The images are scanned photos of each page of the paper, so a text editor is not going to work. Is there a better format, like pdf that would be easier for you to view?

pervect said:
While it is possible that one or more of the two papers you cite make an outright error, the more probable state of affairs is that they each have different defintions of exactly what "LET" really means (what the fundamental assumptions of the theory are).

I think more care needs to be taken to make sure that the authors are *really* talking about the same theory.

If we take your defintion of LET as "a theory that is mathematically equivalent to SR", then it really isn't very clear why you find LET interesting at all. If you find it easier to understand the theory in its new formulation, great, but the general tone of your question doesn't seem to be that of an enlightened person who is trying to explain a simpler way of doing something. Rather it seems like you are experiencing doubts about something, but the only thing that I can see to doubt is the details of the formulation of LET.
Until there is a confirmed detection of a locally preferred frame, then LET and SR are empirically equivalent; if there is ever such a detection, then LET takes charge. I would probably not care if that were the end of the story, however SR is not the end of the relativity story, not by a long shot. It is a starting point for everything else; a local approximation to reality. There are big problems on the largest scales with dark matter, dark energy, and on the smallest scales with the unification of QM, EM, and gravity, and more. That's what I'm really interested in, but applying SR can be something like trying to climb a greased flagpole (that's something that we sometimes try to do here in the US), take VSL as an example; SR forbids it by definition. It is flat wrong to claim that experiments constrain the speed of light to be forever constant; so I'm looking for the most efficient ways to argue that, and to model that.

It is not likely that there are other than a few typographical errors in M-S. This is what Kostelecky & Mewes, Phys. Rev. D, 66, 056005-4 (2002) have to say about M-S: "In this simple example, the transformation T^\mu_\nu leaves invariant the rods and clocks, while \Lambda^\mu_\nu leaves invariant the speed of light. Both are equally valid. In the frames related by T^\mu_\nu, observers agree on rod lengths and clock rates but disagree on the velocity of light. Moreover, the velocity of light is no longer isotropic as measured by these rods and clocks. In contrast, observers related by Lorentz transformations agree that light propagates isotropically with speed 1 but may disagree on rod lengths and clock rates. The description is a matter of coordinate choice, and one can move freely from one to the other using T^\mu_\nu, \Lambda^\mu_\nu, and their inverses."
 
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  • #60
Aether said:
The images are scanned photos of each page of the paper, so a text editor is not going to work. Is there a better format, like pdf that would be easier for you to view?

I think pdf would work much better.

Until there is a confirmed detection of a locally preferred frame, then LET and SR are empirically equivalent; if there is ever such a detection, then LET takes charge.

I would probably not care if that were the end of the story, however SR is not the end of the relativity story, not by a long shot. It is a starting point for everything else; a local approximation to reality. There are big problems on the largest scales with dark matter, dark energy, and on the smallest scales with the unification of QM, EM, and gravity, and more. That's what I'm really interested in, but applying SR can be something like trying to climb a greased flagpole (that's something that we sometimes try to do here in the US), take VSL as an example; SR forbids it by definition. It is flat wrong to claim that experiments constrain the speed of light to be forever constant; so I'm looking for the most efficient ways to argue that, and to model that.

Opinions vary - I find that trying to apply non-SR theories is like trying to "climb a greased flagpole". Metaphorically, anyway, I've never actually tried to do that :-)

In my opinion, if LET wants to accomplish something, it has to at least suggest some experiments which might allow one to detect some sort of preferred frame. If it is just another formulation of SR, it's probably not going to catch on, unless it is simpler to teach (but I suspect that the current formalism is much simpler). It may have a small niche for those who can't adjust their personal philosphies to deal with SR.

It is not likely that there are other than a few typographical errors in M-S. This is what Kostelecky & Mewes, Phys. Rev. D, 66, 056005-4 (2002) have to say about M-S: "In this simple example, the transformation T^\mu_\nu leaves invariant the rods and clocks, while \Lambda^\mu_\nu leaves invariant the speed of light. Both are equally valid. In the frames related by T^\mu_\nu, observers agree on rod lengths and clock rates but disagree on the velocity of light. Moreover, the velocity of light is no longer isotropic as measured by these rods and clocks. In contrast, observers related by Lorentz transformations agree that light propagates isotropically with speed 1 but may disagree on rod lengths and clock rates. The description is a matter of coordinate choice, and one can move freely from one to the other using T^\mu_\nu, \Lambda^\mu_\nu, and their inverses."

Well here's my take on isotropy via a physical example, giving some examples about what is involved in making such a coordinate choice.

Let us suppose that we decide that it is perfectly OK to use an arbitrary clock synchronization to determine speeds, and that we decide to synchronize our clocks by noontime, when the sun is directly overhead. (This is a continuous version of the "time zones" used in the US).

Now, let's compare airplanes flying east-west and west-east with our new clock synchronization methods. We find that airplines flying west travel much faster than the same airpanes flying east, even after we correct for the prevailing winds (which are significant, but I want to ignore this issue).

When we measure the speed of light, we find that it actually arrives before it left with this defintion of synchronization going west - making it have a negative speed (ouch). And it (light) is very pokey going east, traveling verrry slowly.

We also find that the physical expression of momentum depends on the direction one is moving.

With our old definiton of speed, in stil air we could say that the airplanes were going 600 mph east, and 600 mph west, and when they collided, they fell straight down to the ground with no net average velocity.

WIth our new definition of speed, the speeds of identical airplanes flying in still air east-west and west-east are *not* the same. Let's make this concrete, and say that the airplines are going something like 200 mph east, and 1000 mph west in our new system of measurement.

But these airplanes still fall straight down to the ground when they collide (well, that's idealized, but their pieces don't have any net average velocity, and if we could build the airplanes strong enough so that they didn't break apart, we would observe them falling straight down).

Now if we look at two identical airplines colliding with the same velocity, using our new system of synchroniation we find that when they have the same mass and speed, they do not have the same momentum, and that airplanes moving "at the same speed" (with our NEW defijntion of speed) in opposite directions don't fall straight down when they collide.

THe point of this exercise is that clock synchronizations don't really make new physics, which is exactly what the authors you quote are saying.

[add] By this I mean that there are no different experimental predictions. Clearly, Newton's laws have a different appearance when we adopt a non-isotropic clock synchronization method. But the behavior of the actual colliding masses (airplanes in this example) is unchanged.
[end add]

Furthermore, working with clocks synchronized in an anisotropic manner yields anisotropic behavior of physical bodies (like airplanes) as well as anisotropic behavior of light. The clock sychronization that makes light act isotropically is the same clock synchronization that makes airplanes and other physical bodies act isotropically (i.e. come to rest when equal masses at equal velocities coming from opposite directions have an inelastic collision).
 
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