The Root Cause of War: Is It Simply Human Nature?

[Andre]

Again, moral entrepeneurs are not sociopaths, I would think that the majority is socially involved, considerate, and convinced that there is a big threat looming. And they just have that mission, to save the world from that. They just want to do their share and make the world a better place to live in. They just have to dispose of that threat, even if it's the last thing they do.

Anyway in the case of that 17 years old desperate student, one can easily dismiss that. Adolescents cannot be considerated mentally stable. But how about professors? Kari Norgaard for instance?

 

[ThomasT]

Two more things, it's not so much the strong exploiting the weak, but the moral enterpreneurs cultivating fear to the crowd. Herd instinct makes them turn into believers and haters of the other side. That's the essence of the cause of WW-II.

I don't think that herd instinct is the best way, or even a very informative way, to characterize the essence of the cause of WWII, or any war for that matter. Just my current opinion.

The problem is that even if all of us had the courage to act according to our consciences, then, assuming that different socialization imparts different conscientious imperatives, then conflict is still inevitable.

And there remain those with no apparent conscientious imperatives -- an inordinate percentage of which seem to rise to positions of power. Just a particular take on things. But, if true, why is that? Is it because the actions of such persons aren't as constrained as those of persons of conscience?

 

[OmCheeto]

So now are we back to the sociopaths again?

In the politics portion of this discussion I am certain it is the issue. In the other related portions of this discussion, I am not so sure yet.

Eek!

Sorry.

The wolves are there, constantly intimidating us, watching for the weak one that is easy for the taking. Sheep aren’t fearful without the wolves. The wolves probably are sociopaths, but I won’t get into that now.

As the thread topic didn't strike me as being about the wolves, I ignored any comments about them.

But I think we should find a way to teach the sheep about wolves. By example perhaps.

No time today for me to give examples unfortunately.

--------------------------------
Ein, zwei, drei! Schlaff, zeit, ist, nei!
Bartender! Forget what I just said!
Ein andere boogeleise bitte! ;)

 

[Andre]

I don't think that herd instinct is the best way, or even a very informative way, to characterize the essence of the cause of WWII, or any war for that matter. Just my current opinion.

Don't forget that the motive of the leader of the national socialists, to go to war, was the "Endlösung". And the question here is, how did he manage to mobilize a complete nation to co-operate to do that. Obviously what he preached appealed to the population, it triggered their 'noble' (herd) instinct to free the world of an apparently terrible threat. See also Crowd psychology.

And obviously those who opposed were just in the way, and were being taken care of.

But I think we should find a way to teach the sheep about wolves.

Yes that would be great. One of the problems is that moral enterpreneurs usually do the teaching. They have a message to convey. Also they have a strong self-preservation mechanism, suppressing dissidence (see my signature).

I guess our hope is on communities like physicsforums where the ability to logical analysis may overcome gut feeling.

 

[ThomasT]

Don't forget that the motive of the leader of the national socialists, to go to war, was the "Endlösung". And the question here is, how did he manage to mobilize a complete nation to co-operate to do that. Obviously what he preached appealed to the population, it triggered their 'noble' (herd) instinct to free the world of an apparently terrible threat. See also Crowd psychology.

And obviously those who opposed were just in the way, and were being taken care of.



Yes that would be great. One of the problems is that moral enterpreneurs usually do the teaching. They have a message to convey. Also they have a strong self-preservation mechanism, suppressing dissidence (see my signature).

I guess our hope is on communities like physicsforums where the ability to logical analysis may overcome gut feeling.

Thanks for the links. I think I understand your points and your way of making sense of large scale conflict. That is, your statements make sense to me.

I agree with you that online communities like PF, with it's general requirements of documentation, logical analysis, and scientific verification are a good resource for getting at the truth of some things. However, some of the most controversial issues are barred from being discussed here, because it's not primarily a political forum.

The hope of most people, I'm supposing, is that the will of people who value liberty, equality of opportunity, and equality of justice will dominate the will of people who don't. Online communities might be a valuable tool in realizing that hope.

 

[Andre]

I agree with you that online communities like PF, with it's general requirements of documentation, logical analysis, and scientific verification are a good resource for getting at the truth of some things. However, some of the most controversial issues are barred from being discussed here, because it's not primarily a political forum.

Thanks Thomas, I'm happy that it makes sense.

About the barred subjects, it's okay that they are; knowing that moral entrepreneurs are most happy to unleash their powerful fallacies, when they are allowed to do so.

On the other hand it would be nice if PF could lend itself to solving logical issues, with a high political footprint, and then strictly heuristical*, within the scientific method using scientific ethics. Some issues from 1963, 1988 and onwards and 2001 appear to raise some legimate questions.
I realize that this is very sensitive. However, there is (are) forums with very restricted posting rules, with limited authorisations to guard against 'crackpots'.

edit adding

* heuristical: things like witness A says B, witness C says D. B and D contradict but B sounds gut feeling better however D is supported by evidence E, etc etc etc.

How to find your logical mathematical way in such a maze

 

[ThomasT]

Thanks Thomas, I'm happy that it makes sense.

A lot of what you've written makes sense. But I think I still must disagree with what I take to be your basic premise that everybody needs an enemy. I agree that the perception of a common enemy is a factor in uniting people, and that perhaps some sort of herd instinct or groupthink can be a factor, but I don't think there's any fundamental need, per se, to have or perceive enemies.

Regarding the genocide of Jewish and Polish people, I think that a majority of German people avoided, as much as they could, dealing with their suspicions about these things ... out of fear.

 

[Andre]

I agree that the perception of a common enemy is a factor in uniting people, and that perhaps some sort of herd instinct or groupthink can be a factor, but I don't think there's any fundamental need, per se, to have or perceive enemies.

Oh I would certainly not call it a hard law, do people need friends? Not per se. But the more you crave for friends / admirers, the more effort you will do to get them, and then you discover that telling people that there is a big enemy/threat to be feared, dragons, devils, outraged deities, other races, oil companies, aliens, the Orange Sox, asteroids, that they tend to listen and tend to admire you when you seem to know how to deal with that threat.

Regarding the genocide of Jewish and Polish people, I think that a majority of German people avoided, as much as they could, dealing with their suspicions about these things ... out of fear.

Yes, fear reigns. And when you tend to play whistleblower, you're likely told that the public may be so mad at you that your spouse and children may not be not safe.

There is another element to enemy image building and that is framing the opponent, giving the impression that the enemy attacked you (aka Inside Job), like the Reichtag fire. Obviously those notions are always heavily debated.

Other examples are
Emperor Nero burning Rome to frame the Christians,
The sinking of the USS Maine to lure to US to war with Spain.
The fake Polish attack on the Gleiwitz radio station to justify the attack on Poland

It is heavily debated if Roosevelt knew about the attack on Pearl Habor in advance and whether it was provoked or not.
Then there was Operation Northwoods, to commit acts of terrorism against the US and to blame Cuba.

There are many more

It seems that throughout the centuries we have learned how to create our enemies.

 

[mheslep]

Other examples are
Emperor Nero burning Rome to frame the Christians,
The sinking of the USS Maine to lure to US to war with Spain...

The cause of those two incidents is inconclusive, especially the burning of Rome.

There are many more

Many more events near mythological in character?

 

[Andre]

The cause of those two incidents is inconclusive, especially the burning of Rome.
Many more events near mythological in character?

So noted:...

...Obviously those notions are always heavily debated...

However Operation Northwoods was very unmythological.

. A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned
to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine
appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in
chronilogical order):

(1) Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.

(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence"
to stage attack on the base.

(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) sabateurs inside the
base.

(4) Start riots near the entrance to the base (friendly
Cubans).
... etc etc

 

[Andre]

Apparantly the planners of Operation Northwoods agreed with Nazi Hermann Goering as recorded by Gilbert during the post WW-II Nurnberg trials:

Gilbert(in his book): We got around the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship."

Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Now, operation Northwood, vetoed by the Kennedy administration, was declassified, almost by accident, but could there have been other top-secret false flag operations that have been carried out?

 

[Ms Music]

Andre,

Goring's statements are pretty potent! I think I will have to see how much info I can find about Gustave Gilbert.

 

[OmCheeto]

Andre,

Goring's statements are pretty potent! I think I will have to see how much info I can find about Gustave Gilbert.

I concur.

And I may have to retract my "make international friends on facebook" solution. Speaking with my Armenian friend, I've learned more than I wanted. What ugliness.

The Armenian massacre that inspired Hitler

And it just doesn't stop.

Nagorno-Karabakh War
The demand to unify with Armenia, which proliferated in the late 1980s, began in a relatively peaceful manner; however, in the following months, as the Soviet Union's disintegration neared, it gradually grew into an increasingly violent conflict between ethnic Armenians and ethnic Azerbaijanis, resulting in claims of ethnic cleansing by both sides.

bolding mine

Which somewhat reminds me of the semi-recent conflicts Kosovo. I've worked with Bosnians for over 10 years. They seem to tell a different story than what is commonly known.

And I shouldn't mention the assassination of Hrant Dink, but I will.

The stuff you learn when you venture down the rabbit hole. Simply amazing. Kind of makes me want to vomit.

 

[Ms Music]

There are times when I am embarrassed to be part of the human race. This is one of those times. And to find out about it almost 100 years later?

Can society as a whole ever get to the point where we don't kill our neighbors simply because he doesn't LOOK the same, or maybe has a different religion? Or to try to create enemies?

There are monsters that walk among us. I wish them gone.

One planet. One race. HUMAN.

PEACE.

 

[OmCheeto]

There are times when I am embarrassed to be part of the human race. This is one of those times. And to find out about it almost 100 years later?

Can society as a whole ever get to the point where we don't kill our neighbors simply because he doesn't LOOK the same, or maybe has a different religion? Or to try to create enemies?

There are monsters that walk among us. I wish them gone.

One planet. One race. HUMAN.

PEACE.

Paranoia.

Last night, I was sitting on my back porch watching the thumbed kitties play, when a monstrous doberman showed up out of nowhere, and stared me in the face.

Beautiful dog, but quit large. Shouldn't have been there.

I pulled the hedge shears out of the deck and started slicing air, as I stood up. The rust of the blades made a beautiful sound. I slowly approached the dog, stating; "you don't belong here", and it ran away.

I then went to the front porch, and discovered 2 young men standing next to their car in front of my house. The dog obviously belonged to them. The dog ran around the rest of the neighborhood.

I decided they were Turkish mafia, sent to kill me, for my violation of Article 301...

Paranoia, the destroya...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9ObLGRq33o

Peace be unto you also Ms. Music. I love music.

 

[Ms Music]

Just stumbled across an study that, although it is regarding the 2008 financial crisis, the data applies (I believe) to all scenarios that were brought up in this thread.

http://org.sagepub.com/content/18/2/173.full.pdf+html

Abstract
In this theoretically informed study I explore the broader cultural changes that created the conditions for the credit crisis of 2008. Drawing on psychoanalysis and its application to organizational and social dynamics, I develop a theoretical framework around the notion of a manic culture, comprised of four aspects: denial; omnipotence; triumphalism; and over-activity. I then apply this to the credit crisis and argue that the events of 2008 were preceded by an incubation period lasting for over two decades during which a culture of mania developed. Then, focusing especially on the Japanese and South East Asia/LTCM crises, I argue that a series of major ruptures in capitalism during this incubation period served not as warnings, but as opportunities for a manic response, thereby dramatically increasing the risks involved. I also argue that this mania was triggered and strengthened by triumphant feelings in the West over the collapse of communism. I suggest therefore that this manic culture played a significant role in creating the conditions for the
problems that led to the credit crisis.

 

[ThomasT]

Just stumbled across an study that, although it is regarding the 2008 financial crisis, the data applies (I believe) to all scenarios that were brought up in this thread.

http://org.sagepub.com/content/18/2/173.full.pdf+html

I think that the root cause it quite a bit simpler. We're generally selfish creatures. It's our human nature that serves us well wrt certain criteria, and is self-defeating wrt certain other criteria. Is there any reason to believe that humans have significantly changed during the course of recorded history? Is there any reason to believe that humans will significantly change in the future? I don't think so.