Determining 4-vector character of a 4-tuple

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the characterization of a 4-tuple in the context of Lorentz transformations and whether it can be classified as a 4-vector based on its scalar product properties with other 4-vectors. The scope includes theoretical aspects of tensor transformation rules and the definitions of 4-vectors in different coordinate systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks how to demonstrate that a 4-tuple is a 4-vector if its scalar product with any 4-vector is a Lorentz scalar.
  • Another participant argues that the demonstration cannot be completed without knowing that the scalar product is a scalar, suggesting a method involving Lorentz transformations and index manipulation.
  • A different participant proposes using matrix notation to show the relationship between the 4-tuple and 4-vectors, concluding that the 4-tuple behaves like a 4-vector under certain conditions.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of terminology, stating that a 4-tuple cannot be a 4-vector without specifying its transformation properties across coordinate systems.
  • Another participant reiterates the need for careful terminology, clarifying that the definition of a 4-vector requires an assignment of 4-tuples to coordinate systems, not just a single 4-tuple.
  • A later reply acknowledges a previous oversight regarding the definition of a 4-tuple, noting that it should be a continuous function of the coordinate transformation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the definition and characterization of a 4-tuple versus a 4-vector. There is no consensus on whether a 4-tuple can be classified as a 4-vector based solely on its scalar product properties.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the definitions and assumptions regarding the transformation properties of 4-tuples and 4-vectors, as well as the implications of scalar products in the context of Lorentz transformations.

jmcvirgo
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Suppose you're given a 4 tuple and told that its scalar product with any 4-vector is a lorentz scalar. How do I show that this implies the 4-tuple is a 4-vector?

Thanks
 
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It can't be done unless you're told that its scalar product with any 4-vector is a scalar.

If the given 4-tuple is x and the (arbitrary) 4-vector is y,

x_\mu y^\mu=x'_\mu y'^\nu=x'_\mu\Lambda^\mu{}_\nu y^\nu

x_\mu=\Lambda^\mu{}_\nu x'_\mu

Now do some raising and lowering of indices and apply a Lorentz transformation to solve for x', and you're done. This post should help with the notation.
 
Just apply the definitions on the <scalar> product. Denoting by F the matrix the 4-tuple (index down) uses to transform under a Lorentz group element, you'll end with a matrix equation

\mathbb{F} \Lambda = \mbox{1}_{4\times 4}.

Since \Lambda is invertible, the conclusion follows easily.
 
Last edited:
Here's how I would do it in matrix notation:

x^T\eta y=x&#039;^T\eta y&#039;=x&#039;^T\eta\Lambda y

x^T\eta=x&#039;^T\eta\Lambda

\eta x=\Lambda^T\eta x&#039;

x&#039;=\eta^{-1}(\Lambda^T)^{-1}\eta x=\eta^{-1}(\eta\Lambda\eta^{-1})\eta x=\Lambda x

The fact that (\Lambda^T)^{-1}=\eta\Lambda\eta^{-1} follows from the definition of a Lorentz transformation, \Lambda^T\eta\Lambda=\eta. Just multiply both sides with \eta^{-1} from the right.

jmcvirgo said:
the 4-tuple is a 4-vector?
I suggest that you be a bit more careful with the terminology. A 4-tuple can't ever be 4-vector. In order to define a 4-vector you must specify a 4-tuple for each coordinate system. It's the assignment of 4-tuples to coordinate systems that defines a 4-vector, not a single 4-tuple. The assignment is of course usually done by specifying the 4-tuple that you want to associate with a specific coordinate system, and then explicitly stating that the 4-tuples associated with all the other coordinate systems are given by the tensor transformation rule.
 
Last edited:
Fredrik said:
I suggest that you be a bit more careful with the terminology. A 4-tuple can't ever be 4-vector. In order to define a 4-vector you must specify a 4-tuple for each coordinate system. It's the assignment of 4-tuples to coordinate systems that defines a 4-vector, not a single 4-tuple. The assignment is of course usually done by specifying the 4-tuple that you want to associate with a specific coordinate system, and then explicitly stating that the 4-tuples associated with all the other coordinate systems are given by the tensor transformation rule.

Yes, that was sloppy of me. The 4-tuple I had in mind only has to be a continuous function of the coordinate transformation. But I wasn't thinking of it being confined by the tensor transformation rule.
 

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