Is Source Code Film's Interpretation of Quantum Physics Flawed?

[boffinwannabe]

having watched the film source code where they try and persuade that quantum physics allows for the brain to contain infinite parallel worlds i wondered if anyone made sense of it. As far as i could tell it was total rubbish from start to Finnish. Even down to the guy managing to send a text before the experiment even started.

 

[xts]

I haven't seen the film, so I can't comment on the rubbish (?) presented there, but superposition of large (finite, but arbitrarily large) number of parallel representations of information (e.g. words), and parallel processing on all those representation is a basis of Quantum Computing aka Quantum Information Processing.
So it is not quite rubbish - it theoretically works, but despite of large enthusiasm towards it 20 years ago, the progress in real implementation is rather snaily.
If you are interested - google on Quantum Computing, you'll find some explanations (from popular to formal) how it works.

 

[boffinwannabe]

yes i understand that. But you are talking about infinite/large number of states. What this film suggested was quantum physics allowed for a persons memory to be stored as source code, binary data i assume though they weren't specific, then run that memory again and that timeline it contained to be a source for relieving parallel universes by changing that experience in someone who was reliving that memory. What part of quantum physics allows for this? This could leave a lot of people with the wrong understanding surely.

 

[xts]

Oh, come on! You either should not watch Hollywood films or not take their "physics" seriously, even if they use the words and concepts having some meaning in physics. It shouldn't be more misleading than watching Startrek, or cartoons with their very special "physics"...

 

[boffinwannabe]

startreck took a liberal approach to some solid concepts. It brought physics to a whole gneration.

 

[bugatti79]

All rubbish physics aside, the bit i didnt understand was when d female commander pressed the red button and then jake died but yet he was walking wit d girl daying it was a beautiful day etc. I thought by pressing d button...that jake was completely dead ie brain dead hence no memories...?

 

[boffinwannabe]

yes because according to the film he was now living a parralel world, a different timeline. Yet for the whole of the film till that point he couldn't live past 8 minutes in the parralel world because his brain didnt hold any more memory of the events thus as you say, till that point the parralel world required his brain to be working.

 

[bugatti79]

Sorry, i struggle 2 understand your reply. Are you saying that at any 1 time he could only live for 8mins in his parallel world? But yet he was still alive in this parallel world when the button was pressed.

 

[Fredrik]

Sorry, i struggle 2 understand your reply. Are you saying that at any 1 time he could only live for 8mins in his parallel world? But yet he was still alive in this parallel world when the button was pressed.

Each time he was sent back to the train, his consciousness was effectively taking over a person in an alternative reality, and he would experience 8 minutes on the train, as if his entire brain had been placed inside the other guy's body. The experience was different every time, because of the different things he chose to do on the train. Then (spoiler for the end of the movie)

Spoiler

at the end of his last trip, his own body was pulled off life support and died. He then continued to live on in the body of the guy he had taken over, who was still alive, since this time he had successfully prevented the bombs from going off.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

startreck took a liberal approach to some solid concepts. It brought physics to a whole gneration.

It has helped to highlight science and physics concepts for four decades!

There are many examples of "sci-fi" in TOS, that are real technologies today. This is easy to miss unless one can remember or consider what it was like back when these episodes first aired. When Spock walks in with a small cartridge [now called a thumb drive] that contains gigabits of information, and we see photos of people and histories of subjects magically displayed on the monitor, it isn't obvoius now that this was wild thinking back then.

 

[Newai]

I never thought anyone considered it "wild thinking back then." What is wild about it is how quickly some of that technology has happened and even surpassed predictions. But it was still a job for them more than any real attempt to bring science into the home. Otherwise the execs would've respected Roddenberry's plea to not put sound in space.

 

[bugatti79]

Ok, that's based on whether u believe consciousness survives beyond death. Depends whether ur atheist or otherwise...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I never thought anyone considered it "wild thinking back then." What is wild about it is how quickly some of that technology has happened and even surpassed predictions. But it was still a job for them more than any real attempt to bring science into the home. Otherwise the execs would've respected Roddenberry's plea to not put sound in space.

It was literally science fiction. Your answer only suggests that my observation is correct - the context at the time is lost to today's audience.

In fact, a lot of the stuff in Star Trek was just wild guessing by TV writers. Some devices, like the transporters, were just plot devices needed to reduce the cost of production.

A lot of good sci-fi is driven by a knowledge of technology trends, but much iof science fiction just refuses to recognize limits. It isn't a calculation, it is imagination.

 

[Newai]

I was in the original audience, grew up on it. I don't understand why you want to say "has helped to highlight science and physics concepts for four decades" when there were many things that were just wrong, and of which they were aware when they broadcasted it. And they're still doing it. This only means that they take license to give us bad science to accommodate the popular image of sci-fi and tell their stories. I don't fault them for that; I do it all the time in my own writing. But I would never want anyone to take my writing and dissect it with highlights in physics. Why should we do the same for Star Trek?

 

[QuarkCharmer]

Star trek and similar are one of the many catalysts that fueled my desire to study physics. I know that sounds insane, and I fully understand it is a work of fiction.

 

[Newai]

I don't think that sounds insane. That's what I would hope from any inspiration source. I grew up on ToS and it inspired a lot of my interest in writing sci-fi.

 

[wuliheron]

It was literally science fiction. Your answer only suggests that my observation is correct - the context at the time is lost to today's audience.

In fact, a lot of the stuff in Star Trek was just wild guessing by TV writers. Some devices, like the transporters, were just plot devices needed to reduce the cost of production.

A lot of good sci-fi is driven by a knowledge of technology trends, but much iof science fiction just refuses to recognize limits. It isn't a calculation, it is imagination.

I agree. A lot of kids today might visit a hospital, see the wall mounted patient monitors above the beds, and never guess they were directly inspired by the original star trek series instead of vice versa. The show got a lot of things wrong as you'd expect, but the amazing part is the sheer number of things they made reasonable speculations about and the number of people they inspired they do more then just dream about such things.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I agree. A lot of kids today might visit a hospital, see the wall mounted patient monitors above the beds, and never guess they were directly inspired by the original star trek series instead of vice versa. The show got a lot of things wrong as you'd expect, but the amazing part is the sheer number of things they made reasonable speculations about and the number of people they inspired they do more then just dream about such things.

A bit off topic, but it is interesting to watch an old episode of Emergency. I remember at the time the equipment and hospital seemed so advanced and wonderous. Now it looks like something out of the wild west. The hospital rooms look barren compared to a real room today.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I never thought anyone considered it "wild thinking back then."

I think a check of the history of Moore's Law shows that Star Trek was complete fiction at the time. Perhaps you didn't realize how far beyond the edge it went, which wouldn't be surprising for a kid. No doubt I thought of it the same way back then.

The law is named after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, who described the trend in his 1965 paper.[7][8][9] The paper noted that the number of components in integrated circuits had doubled every year from the invention of the integrated circuit in 1958 until 1965 and predicted that the trend would continue "for at least ten years".[10]

-wiki-

Ten years from 1965 would put it at about the TRS 80 or the first Apple; hardly a computer capable of commanding a star ship and replacing Captain Kirk! [but you could play Asteroids!]

This all reminds me a bit of a young man who once swore that you could buy a real hoverboard, like in Back to the Future, at Walmart.

 

[Evo]

All rubbish physics aside, the bit i didnt understand was when d female commander pressed the red button and then jake died but yet he was walking wit d girl daying it was a beautiful day etc. I thought by pressing d button...that jake was completely dead ie brain dead hence no memories...?

Stop with the text speak and use proper English here please.

 

[wuliheron]

A bit off topic, but it is interesting to watch an old episode of Emergency. I remember at the time the equipment and hospital seemed so advanced and wonderous. Now it looks like something out of the wild west. The hospital rooms look barren compared to a real room today.

The irony is they probably went to great lengths to fill the set with the most modern equipment they could. Hollywood movies tend to use the smallest cellphones, thinnest monitors, and whatnot they can find to prevent the video from looking dated too fast and loosing value as a result. There are continuing efforts to develop medical tricorders and I expect those too will eventually give some producers a hard time as they struggle to prevent their videos from looking prematurely dated.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are continuing efforts to develop medical tricorders and I expect those too will eventually give some producers a hard time as they struggle to prevent their videos from looking prematurely dated.

This handheld, ultrasonic, medical imaging device, was touted by some in the media [obviously Trekkers] to be an early version of the medical tricorder. But I'm not sold because I can't hear the wooowooo sound when it operates.

http://www.physorg.com/news175326408.html

 

[Zryn]

having watched the film source code where they try and persuade that quantum physics allows for the brain to contain infinite parallel worlds i wondered if anyone made sense of it. As far as i could tell it was total rubbish from start to Finnish. Even down to the guy managing to send a text before the experiment even started.

Hey buddy, don't sweat the small stuff or you'll drown.

 

[wuliheron]

This handheld, ultrasonic, medical imaging device, was touted by some in the media [obviously Trekkers] to be an early version of the medical tricorder. But I'm not sold because I can't hear the wooowooo sound when it operates.

There's now a ten million dollar x prize for the first tricorder developed. The demand for a cheap handheld device that can be used by even people with little medical training in the most remote areas is huge.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sorry, i struggle 2 understand your reply. Are you saying that at any 1 time he could only live for 8mins in his parallel world? But yet he was still alive in this parallel world when the button was pressed.

If you think back you might notice that the events in all his previous eight minute travels always ended with him dying, even when he got off the train. They never established that he could only be there for eight minutes, they just said he could only be there for eight minutes. And notice that the one time he died earlier than eight minutes things went haywire? They made several hints to the effect that the eight minute rule may not be as solid as stated.

 

[boffinwannabe]

did you get exactly how the process worked? My take was the dead guys memory was stored as digital data? they appeared to be following the injured guys life on a computer screen as code. So what exactly did they recover from the dead guys brain? the only way i can see this working is if they kept the memory in its original form which would be what? some sort of electromagnetic field? even if you go with it and say ok they stored that memory complete as it was in the dead guys brain..how did they run it on the injured guys brain? i just don't get the whole setup. The injured guy had complete freedom within that stored memory, exactly how was it running? and how on Earth could he have sent a message back to the woman controlling him from a time before the experiment had taken place.

 

[boffinwannabe]

thinking more they did say the injured guy was an exact neuron and pathway match, so i guess they were implanting the dead guys memory directly onto the injured guys brain. So when he died in the rerun memory why didnt he die for real since the end of the film suggests this life was running for real n a parallel universe.

 

[Fredrik]

why didnt he die for real

1. Because people like happy endings.
2. Because it was the best way to show the audience that the other universe was real too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

did you get exactly how the process worked? My take was the dead guys memory was stored as digital data? they appeared to be following the injured guys life on a computer screen as code. So what exactly did they recover from the dead guys brain? the only way i can see this working is if they kept the memory in its original form which would be what? some sort of electromagnetic field? even if you go with it and say ok they stored that memory complete as it was in the dead guys brain..how did they run it on the injured guys brain? i just don't get the whole setup. The injured guy had complete freedom within that stored memory, exactly how was it running? and how on Earth could he have sent a message back to the woman controlling him from a time before the experiment had taken place.

thinking more they did say the injured guy was an exact neuron and pathway match, so i guess they were implanting the dead guys memory directly onto the injured guys brain. So when he died in the rerun memory why didnt he die for real since the end of the film suggests this life was running for real n a parallel universe.

I am not actually educated enough to give any opinion upon the realism (which I assume is fairly lacking). Personally I've always had issues with the "many worlds" theory but, again, I'm not so educated as to have a legitimate response to it.

So just going off what the movie says, MAJOR SPOILERS, his uniqueness for the job that they mention has something to do with his injuries and the specific damage to his brain (iirc) though they made this seem like just something "special" about him to begin with because they did not want to let him know his actual physical state. His lack of consciousness with regard to his physical body made it easy for him to experience a wholly "virtual" world.

This tech of theirs apparently made it possible to scan the dead mans brain down to the very "quantum states". Some people have opined that the secret of consciousness, and particularly free will, may be found somewhere in the "quantum states" of the brain though I do not think that this opinion has much actual scientific traction or fact behind it. In the movie they seem to have created a sort of "virtual construct" of the dead mans memories which can then, some crazy how not really explained, be accessed by another brain. Here the "quantum brain states"/consciousness/freewill bit becomes important because this is supposedly how he accesses parallel worlds and relives these moments in different ways. BUT, these worlds are supposed to only be theoretical modeled by the computer, they don't really exist. The scientist reminds him of this a few times and tells him he is not really going back in time ect. In this he seems to protest too much, like the eight minute limit, which gives a slight impression that maybe he really isn't sure what exactly is going on. Really there should not be a computer on Earth capable of running such a simulation.

As for the message I believe that it was supposed to have been sent to, and received by, the woman in the parallel world, not his own.

 

[DaveC426913]

If I understand correctly, the "source code" is not simply a simulation, it is taking advantage of alternate parallel realities. So, when she pulled the plug, she severed his connection to this reality, but since he didn't die in the other reality, he lived on there.

What's confusing me is how he was able to send texts, phone calls and receive content within the capsule. What's the cross-universe http protocol look like?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If I understand correctly, the "source code" is not simply a simulation, it is taking advantage of alternate parallel realities. So, when she pulled the plug, she severed his connection to this reality, but since he didn't die in the other reality, he lived on there.

What's confusing me is how he was able to send texts, phone calls and receive content within the capsule. What's the cross-universe http protocol look like?

All of that was apparently received by people in the alternate realities which he was immersed in. He used the alternate reality's internet to look up himself. He called an alternate father. He e-mailed his handler in the alternate dimension who was handling an alternate him.

 

[DaveC426913]

All of that was apparently received by people in the alternate realities which he was immersed in. He used the alternate reality's internet to look up himself. He called an alternate father. He e-mailed his handler in the alternate dimension who was handling an alternate him.

Right. So the time on train was not in fact, in his head, it was real - just in an alternate real. I see.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Right. So the time on train was not in fact, in his head, it was real - just in an alternate real. I see.

This would seem to be the idea considering what happens in the film though the lead scientist on the project insisted it was not the case. Of course he is also portrayed as the scientist desperately wanting to put his discovery to use and get results to receive more funding despite not necessarily knowing all there is to know about it.

 

[DaveC426913]

film though the lead scientist on the project insisted

The one played by Cheech Marin you mean?

 

[BobG]

did you get exactly how the process worked? My take was the dead guys memory was stored as digital data? they appeared to be following the injured guys life on a computer screen as code. So what exactly did they recover from the dead guys brain? the only way i can see this working is if they kept the memory in its original form which would be what? some sort of electromagnetic field? even if you go with it and say ok they stored that memory complete as it was in the dead guys brain..

This kind of bothered me, too. The proposition seemed to be that the dead guy's memories captured the entire world during those 8 minutes, even if the dead guy was only conscious of a tiny slice of it. The injured guy was able to learn details about a bomb the dead guy never even saw.

It was an exciting, action adventure version of "Ground Hog Day" - no more, no less. But that didn't make it any less entertaining to me. As for the ending - who cares? He saved everyone on the train and got the girl and that was what was important - even if that part only happened in his head during his last few seconds of life.

 

[DaveC426913]

This kind of bothered me, too. The proposition seemed to be that the dead guy's memories captured the entire world during those 8 minutes, even if the dead guy was only conscious of a tiny slice of it. The injured guy was able to learn details about a bomb the dead guy never even saw.

I wondered about this too. If this were a simulation, he could never learn any facts that he did not personally experience.

But Bob, it's not a simulation and did not occur only in his head. It's an alternate parallel world. It's real. That was the revelation halfway through, and that was the point of the ending. He really did save those people and really did reach Chicago.

 

[BobG]

Well, actually, he ceased to exist as soon as the movie ended. Well, at least he ceased to exist until the next show started. Man, that guy was forced to relive that two hours over and over for weeks!

 

[DaveC426913]

Well, actually, he ceased to exist as soon as the movie ended. Well, at least he ceased to exist until the next show started. Man, that guy was forced to relive that two hours over and over for weeks!

No, he simply ceased to inhabit the guy's body.

Or were you making a joke?

 

[BobG]

I guess the point is that what he did on and around the train didn't have to be any more real than the capsule he was in when he was talking to his contollers. The movie was more like poetry than a sci-fi movie. How he felt was more important than whether any of it was possible or not.

It was better than "Johhny Got His Gun"!

(Funny - most people saw that as an anti-war novel, but I kind of felt that was just something tacked on to the end of a really good book because he needed some kind of ending?)

 

[DaveC426913]

I guess the point is that what he did on and around the train didn't have to be any more real than the capsule he was in when he was talking to his contollers.

What do you mean by "didn't have to be"?

(At the risk of repeating myself) The premise of the film is that those 8 minutes on the train were not simulations, and were not in his head, they were real events in the real world - just not this world. (but a world every bit as valid as this one).

The point is that, he really actually did save the people on that train, and really did reach Chicago, and really did go on to get the girl and live a happy life.

The story speaks to the idea that his actions, his choices, really did alter his world for the better. This is food for thought.

 

[MATLABdude]

I thoroughly enjoyed Source Code. Protagonist saves the day, nails the bad guy, and gets the girl (not necessarily in that order, nor in the same universe). But...

Spoiler

I remember a Cracked article I read a while ago entitled something along the lines of "Movies with the most twisted implications" (or some such--can't find the article there). Sure, Jake Gyllenhall's character does all the above, all while being trapped in his mind in a body barely kept alive, and forced to do the bidding of a shadowy military organization (noble though it may be), but he's also wiped out the guy he replaced!

If we accept the movie's premise that he's in a new spin-off reality, the teacher / train passenger no longer exists in that reality. Or maybe even worse, he's still in there somewhere, watching(?) Jake Gyllenhall's character living his life! Maybe he's the one that's the real hero, sacrificing himself to allow someone else to save the train?

And if he just took over the life the teacher had been living, isn't that the ultimate in identity theft? Probably for the best that was left untreated and not morally ambiguous!

 

[wuliheron]

I thoroughly enjoyed Source Code. Protagonist saves the day, nails the bad guy, and gets the girl (not necessarily in that order, nor in the same universe). But...

Exactly, the movie resembles others like "The Matrix" that jumble philosophies and scientific theories almost at random as a plot device to keep the shallow comic book plot moving and encourage the audience to suspend their disbelief. Boy fights evil, falls in love, saves world, lives happily ever after. At least with movies like "The Matrix" the holes in their logic are somewhat more subtle and rely more on cultural biases and preconceptions then the audience suspending their disbelief.

 

[boffinwannabe]

i could at least see how the matrix tied in with bits of creditability and at the surface level made some sense. The source code made no sense at any point, it wasn't even clever because they didnt even attempt to explain any of it. I mean in his new reality the teacher hadnt even died so how on Earth was he now inside a living person? Where did the teachers mind go?
However having just seen The Adjustment Beaurou i have to say that source code is no longer the low point in credibility.

 

[boffinwannabe]

All of that was apparently received by people in the alternate realities which he was immersed in. He used the alternate reality's internet to look up himself. He called an alternate father. He e-mailed his handler in the alternate dimension who was handling an alternate him.

but he emailed the handler before the experiment had taken place in her reality.

 

[wuliheron]

i could at least see how the matrix tied in with bits of creditability and at the surface level made some sense. The source code made no sense at any point, it wasn't even clever because they didnt even attempt to explain any of it. I mean in his new reality the teacher hadnt even died so how on Earth was he now inside a living person? Where did the teachers mind go?
However having just seen The Adjustment Beaurou i have to say that source code is no longer the low point in credibility.

At the end of the first movie Neo is outside the matrix, yet stops the machines using his new found supernatural powers. I don't know about you, but such things don't make even superficial sense to me. It is at least as big a cop out as the ending of The Adjustment Bureau.

 

[BobG]

but he emailed the handler before the experiment had taken place in her reality.

And based on what he emailed her, he wasn't sent to an alternate reality, but was transported in time in the same reality and changed it - apparently avoiding some kind of paradox since it was actually the guy who's body he inhabited that changed it?

If you're looking for some kind of realism or logic, the movie was crap. Or at least sent viewers going different ways trying to fit it into an acceptable frame - he changed the past, he changed an alternate reality, what he thought he did was actually all in his head, it didn't matter because the movie was more about how he felt than reality.

I hold the latter view. Some movies are better if you don't take them too literally. Black Swan, for instance.

 

[boffinwannabe]

havent seen black swan but looks interesting will have to check it out.

 

[boffinwannabe]

but he emailed the handler before the experiment had taken place in her reality.

having thought about that again he could have emailed right after he survived the train bombing which means it would have actually have been before the experiment started. But it could only have been the commander in his new reality. We don't know that it wasnt, we just saw the clip of her receiving the email, there was no pointer to which reality it was. However at the time i got the feeling that the suggestion was that it was some sort of time loop and the original commander right at the start may also have had the email. I guess at a stretch there's no reason that any time line must have a chronological start in the same way the big bang not have happened till we came up with the equations to create that timeline from the sum of all possible histories that would have existed till one possibility became the history.

 

[boffinwannabe]

At the end of the first movie Neo is outside the matrix, yet stops the machines using his new found supernatural powers. I don't know about you, but such things don't make even superficial sense to me. It is at least as big a cop out as the ending of The Adjustment Bureau.

I meant the premise of the film being much like the brain in the vat idea, the bigger picture makes some sense and you can fill the gaps with your own take. The Adjustment Bureau was nuts from start to finnish. It would also involve throwing everything we know about quantum physics out of the windows, all of it. Thats just too much to ask :) Then of course there's the religious and spiritual angles, long as you believe in angels that don't die or get injured but yet feel pain then i guess you have a head start. Anyway, as for that film, a script is written and relies on chance?

 

[boffinwannabe]

Some people have opined that the secret of consciousness, and particularly free will, may be found somewhere in the "quantum states" of the brain though I do not think that this opinion has much actual scientific traction or fact behind it..

I don't think anyone with any credibility has said that. Neurologists will tell you that our best science says that consciousness is nothing more than something that arises from brain function. Free will? Again we can show that all thoughts are created some moments before we ever become consciousness of them. You can not make case for consciousness being the thing that determines free will on that basis. You also cannot talk about quantum physics and consciousness as though quantum physics says anything about consciousness because it doesnt. I know some people have made a living from bringing them together but they are talking philosophy and wrapping it as science.