Automotive How Do Ford 429 Engine Valve Covers and Heads Compare to Cobra Jet Models?

[average guy]

mechanical engineers
i looked at wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_385_engine
they don't quite answer the question.
the one you'd ask if you saw this engine at
a machine shop or car show.
what's going on with those valve covers/heads?

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Averagesupernova]

At first glance I would say it's a hemi based on the position of the spark plug. What is it exactly that you want to know?

 

[average guy]

super nova
just to get 'the word' on this engine.
somebody that knows them inside out.
i do know it shows coming out in '68.
word was in our mopar camp
Ford pulled the plug big time on
high performance in '71.
if i came out with line of engines in
'68 and got hit with new smog guidelines
in '70 i'd be not happy either.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[2milehi]

Not quite a hemi but a "semi-hemi" or canted valves. Shorter intake/exhaust ports and valves positioned for better flow.

Pic is worth a thousand words
http://image.mustangmonthly.com/f/2...tang_engine_works+_boss_429_cylinder_head.jpg

 

[average guy]

2 mile high
is there a version with those heads
that can be had for reasonable money?
like getting a 460 out of a motorhome idea.
no more guessing for me.
what's the used market like to get one of these?

Have A Nice Day!

 

[average guy]

2 mile high
about pic's.
i like the first pic.
clap clap clap.
second pice.
what's he been doing with that motor?
i haven't seen many heads the look like that.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[2milehi]

Those are boss heads - a quick look at ebay shows those heads at ~4 to 6 thousand dollars.

 

[average guy]

2 mile high
i'm sensing your clamming up on me.
that must be one of your heads.
while this is a 429 post let me ask somebody.
anything racy or worthwhile about a 460?
any 429 features sort of drift over to the 460?

Have A Nice Day!

 

[turbo]

Please start using capitalization and separating your posts into statements that make sense. I'm interested in mechanics, and your posts are intriguing at times, but pathetic and not worth the time to sort out because they are illegible to anybody not into txt speak. Please do us all a favor and start putting an effort into composing them. I know that I'm an old cranky fart, but old cranky farts might actually be your best resources when you think about exploiting old auto-technology.

 

[Fahlin Racing]

The Boss 429 heads have rotated & canted valves. It is a TOTALLY differeny beast than the regular 429 wedge. Rare engine indeed. The basic 429 only ran from 1968 until 1972 when smog regulations came into concern Ford discontinued it. However, industrial applications kept using the 429ci displacement. The 460 and 429 were debuted in the same year, one is larger because it was designed for the Lincolns IMO.

The differerence between the 429 & the 460 is stroke length. 429 - 3.590" , 460 - 3.850" I prefer a 460 myself, but with the shorter stroke, you should be able to go a little quicker when accelerating.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

We just put 429 heads on the 460.

 

[2milehi]

2 mile high
i'm sensing your clamming up on me.
that must be one of your heads.
while this is a 429 post let me ask somebody.
anything racy or worthwhile about a 460?
any 429 features sort of drift over to the 460?

Have A Nice Day!

Your sense is wrong - I have never owned a Ford.

 

[jim hardy]

could it be one of these?

a big y-block sohc hemi ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine

427 SOHC "Cammer"





SOHC engine showing cam, rockers and timing chains




Examples of racing 427 SOHC's
The Ford Single Overhead Cam (SOHC) 427 V8 engine, familiarly known as the "Cammer",[33] was released in 1964 to maintain NASCAR dominance and to counter the Chrysler 426 Hemi engine. The Chrysler 426 used an extremely large block casting that dwarfed the earlier 392 Hemi. The Ford 427 block was closer dimensionally to the early Hemis than to the elephantine 426 Hemi: the Ford FE bore spacing was 4.63 in (117.6 mm) compared to the Chrysler 392's bore spacing of 4.5625 in (115.9 mm). The Ford FE's deck height of 10.17 in (258.3 mm) was lower than that of the Chrysler 392 at 10.87 in (276.1 mm). For comparison, the 426 Hemi has a deck height of 10.72 in (272.3 mm) and bore spacing of 4.8 in (121.9 mm); both Chrysler Hemis have decks more than 0.5 in (12.7 mm) taller than the FE.

The engine was based on the high performance 427 side-oiler block, providing race-proven durability. The block and associated parts were largely unchanged, the main difference being use of an idler shaft instead of the camshaft in the block, which necessitated plugging the remaining camshaft bearing oiling holes.

The heads were newly-designed cast iron items with hemispherical combustion chambers and a single overhead camshaft over each head, operating shaft-mounted roller rocker arms. The valvetrain consisted of valves larger than those on Ford wedge head engines, made out of stainless steel and with sodium-filled exhaust valves to prevent the valve heads from burning, and dual valve springs. This design allowed for high volumetric efficiency at high engine speed.

The idler shaft in the block in place of the camshaft was driven by the timing chain and drove the distributor and oil pump in conventional fashion. An additional sprocket on this shaft drove a second timing chain, 6 ft (1.8 m) long, which drove both overhead camshafts. The length of this chain made precision timing of the camshafts an issue to be considered at high rpms.

The engine also had a dual-point distributor with a transistorized ignition amplifier system, running 12 amps of current through a high-output ignition coil.

The engines were essentially hand-built with racing in mind. Combustion chambers were fully machined to reduce variability. Nevertheless, Ford recommended blueprinting the engines before use in racing applications. With a single four-barrel carburetor they were rated at 616 horsepower (459 kW) at 7,000 rpm & 515 ft·lb (698 N·m) of torque @ 3,800 rpm, and while equipped with dual four-barrel carburetors they made 657 horsepower (490 kW) at 7,500 rpm & 575 ft·lb (780 N·m) of torque @ 4,200 rpm. Ford sold them via the parts counter, the single four-barrel model as part C6AE-6007-363S, the dual carburetor model as part C6AE-6007-359J for $2350.00 (as of October, 1968). Weight of the engine was 680 lb (308 kg).[34]

 

[average guy]

turbo
stopping to capitalize slows down my flow of ideas.
( there, that ought to keep him, but i don't think so )
fahlin racing
nice to hear from you again.
i found out what Boss or Cobra Jet or Super Cobra Jet ( whatever they're called )
429 heads are, they're off the table.
i can buy a lot of really neat stuff for 6 grand.
i'm asking if they're are any good features on the regular
(wedge?) 429 and 460 heads?
howler monkey
regular 429 heads or big valve cover ones?
2 mile high
this is fun.
it's not getting my question answered, but i'll play.
i'm sensing your clamming up on me.
jim hardy
no and no.
if you want one.
it's been reissued as a crate motor.
you'd be the only big kid on your block with one!
when you see the price, you'll know why.
pic shows what engine was intended for.
that's young don prudhomme in pic.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[xxChrisxx]

turbo
stopping to capitalize slows down my flow of ideas.
( there, that ought to keep him, but i don't think so )
fahlin racing
nice to hear from you again.

Pressingthespacebarslowsdownmyideasinfactavoidingpunctuationaltogetherbutadding
randomcarragereturns
makesitverydifficultforpeopletofollow
whatiamtalkingabout.

Jargon makes posts hard to follow, even if you are familiar with the subject matter.
Poorly formatted jargon is much worse. It's a forum, it's not in real time, you can write your thoughs and format them afterwards.

 

[average guy]

chris
I can take criticism.
Yeah, i guess i do think we're all standing
around looking at pair of heads on workbench,
in this situation.
I'll work on it.

Have A Good Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Boss, Cobra Jet are different models. I am not sure if the 429 or if it was the 428 had a model Thunder jet.

Still being tough times, I am not sure what you have as selection for hreads anymore if you go iron factory heads. D3VE heads (460) should be out there for low price unless people have cashed them in for scrap. The C8 castings are what you want if you can get them. Stay away from the D2 heads as their chambers are too big (100CC give or take) to really get usuable power and good combustion. I grab up the D3VE heads when I can. Unless you use domed pistons to fill the chamber as much as you can then maybe the D2 castings may work if you know what you are doing as far as chamber modifications. Look at the exhaust ports, you will see what is needed to help flow out of the cylinder, No need to touch the intake side for street applications.

If you find efi 460 heads, they will not work with the carbureted intakes or exhaust manifolds because of bolt pattern differences.

 

[2milehi]

turbo
stopping to capitalize slows down my flow of ideas.
( there, that ought to keep him, but i don't think so )
fahlin racing
nice to hear from you again.
i found out what Boss or Cobra Jet or Super Cobra Jet ( whatever they're called )
429 heads are, they're off the table.
i can buy a lot of really neat stuff for 6 grand.
i'm asking if they're are any good features on the regular
(wedge?) 429 and 460 heads?
howler monkey
regular 429 heads or big valve cover ones?
2 mile high
this is fun.
it's not getting my question answered, but i'll play.
i'm sensing your clamming up on me.
jim hardy
no and no.
if you want one.
it's been reissued as a crate motor.
you'd be the only big kid on your block with one!
when you see the price, you'll know why.
pic shows what engine was intended for.
that's young don prudhomme in pic.

Have A Nice Day!

Take two of these and write to me in the morning

 

[average guy]

fahlin racing
in your opinion are the 429-460 heads on a par
with Chrysler 383-440 and GM 396-454 heads?
basically ok but nothing to right home about?

2 mile high
i'll take that as a jibe and not jibe back at you
so it's not misunderstood.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Well, that all depends on what castings you get. Pre smog heads are desirable. The D3VE smog heads are the most desirable up until 1986. I could not tell you what EFI heads are desirable though 1987 to 1999. Chryslers 440 lasted up to 1978 in regular passenger vehicles, a couple years more they were used in RVs I believe.

Between the Chevy, Chrysler and Ford BBs each era of castings have different characteristics so depending on what you have for an application, you could pick and choose. Anything from the factory can be improved somewhat. Depends if the castings have what is known as core shift when they are being poured. The big displacement engines usually have more meat within the casting around the ports etc as far as the american V8s go which helps. Fords 385 series engines always had large intake ports. Chevy BB engines have small and large ports. Not too sure on Chrysler's though.

Each engine family of Ford has a different valve cover bolt count and shape. The FT & FE series engines are the only ones that share the exact same valve covers. If you want to see a small version of the 385 series heads look at the 335 series engines. The Boss 302 used the design as well, although different just like the 351C Boss and the 429 Boss. Each engine has a similar head. Makes the top end of a SBC look like a runt compared to the 302Boss or basic 351C.

I don't think 460s ever came with a 2V carb either, probably the same about the 429. I have been dusting off my brain cells to get this info out lol. I need to work on my engine database some more since my last one was lost when my other computer crashed. I had 2+ years into it, it was a bummer when it went bye bye.

 

[average guy]

fahlin racing
come again about regular 429-460 being like
the really good 351 cleveland or windsor heads.
i'm thinking of small block ford heads with some
HUGE ports stock.
let me know if you want me to pm you about
avoiding another computer oh-no! and a
junkman story.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Well its more like, the 351C and 302BOSS were like the 429-460 385 series engines. Second, you can't put windsor heads on a 335 series mill, vice versa.

Depends on many variables to choose heads etc.

What are you doing exactly with a 429 or 460 Ford?

 

[average guy]

fahlin racing
i saw some heads a long time ago and
the ports were massive.
pretty sure they were stock and i thought
they were ford.
CONSIDERING 429-460. if no huge ports i'll
just hold with chrysler 440.
regarding data loss and your junkman reference,
use HARDWARE RAID 1 on an ASUS motherboard
and i blew the deal on Cadillac 500 cu in.
off it went to mr junkman.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[average guy]

fahlin
here it is:
'The '4V' heads had massive ports and valves compared to the '2V'. Both had the valves canted to the sides in a "poly-angle". The '2V' head had a open, almost hemispherical shaped combustion chamber while the '4V' sported a Quench type combustion chamber. The Cleveland has a very square type rocker cover while the Windsor has a more rounded end cover.'
from wikipedia.
Ford 302 with 4 barrel heads.
all that's left is to see if Cleveland 351 had them.
check out 429 and 460 non Cobra Jet heads.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Yeah. The water ports if I remember right are different on the 302 Boss though. The 2V & 4V are both factory heads. I have a 351C 2V engine in my garage. The 429-460 mills are what these engine's (302Boss & 335 series engine) heads were derived from. If you have ever seen a BBC head, you have a general sense what a 385 series Ford is like in terms of size.

 

[Fahlin Racing]

It seems you are looking for a big engine project asking these questions. I haven't had the opportunity to work on a 440ci Mopar yet. Someday maybe. Enjoy your project.

 

[2milehi]

Yeah. The water ports if I remember right are different on the 302 Boss though. The 2V & 4V are both factory heads. I have a 351C 2V engine in my garage. The 429-460 mills are what these engine's (302Boss & 335 series engine) heads were derived from. If you have ever seen a BBC head, you have a general sense what a 385 series Ford is like in terms of size.

Rectangle port or oval port?

 

[average guy]

fahlin
one good reason I'm looking into fords too is
if i run across ANYTHING in the future
and it's junk price or 'take it away' i'll
grab it and take it home.
it can be not my make but i'll save it from
being scrapped.
fahlin mr 2 mile hi is keeping us on our toes.
yes there are small and large port chevy heads.
big block i think, something about oval ports.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

I do the same thing, I grab up old engines and parts, etc when I can as well.

Oval, the 429-460 Fords only have oval induction ports 2mile.

 

[average guy]

fahlin
i'm thinking of expanding the 'saving from junkman'.
old outboard motors and stuff like that.
just a couple bucks though!

are 429-460 heads EQUAL to best 351C heads?
equal to the better ford cast iron heads
except 427 SOHC and 429 big valve cover motor?
just want to be clear on this.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

You would have to look for testing done on what you are asking about. You are talkng about 3 different head designs. Second you are involving 3 different engine families.

Basic 429-460s utilize a polysperical design, 335 series 351C etc are polysperical. You can call this canted if you like for either. The 427 SOHC is a full hemi head, the 429 Boss is a polysperical design but the valves are rotated as well.

I would look into engine literature if you want to know the fine details.

 

[average guy]

fahlin
429/460 are 2.19 intake and Cobra Jet/Super Cobra Jet are 2.25 intake.
ports are equally big on both.
6 grand plus more for .06" bigger intake valve? no thanks.
429/460 gets my vote.
when you said you might try Mopar 440.
a word to the wise.
i'm a refugee from Mopardom.
Resto guys have driven up prices for everything.
also.
429/460 has later year run.
increases chances of finding complete engines and
parts in nicey nice condition.

Have A Nice Day!

 

[Fahlin Racing]

There is more to the picture than just the valve size bud. And 6000 or whatever it was for some heads, I believe that was about the Boss heads, correct? that's a whole different ball game.

Standard 429 or 460 heads will be much less hands down completely rebuilt. I live by a few scrapyards, one which has a 440 in an RV that I know of. I don't think its moving too fast either.

Just remember, HUGE ports DO NOT mean anything unless you have the right velocities, no flow separation etc (correct application). Many variables! The advertisements all promote CFM, which leads to misunderstanding of how you are filling the cylinders in reality.

Enjoy your findings.

 

[average guy]

fahlin
about the 440, jump on it!

regarding 460 and i
'i thought and i bought'
of all things that might have been Ford slogan.
it's 460 for me. case closed.

all that stuff about flow rates, I'm not interested
in cutting things that fine.

if 460 doesn't make power I'm covered.
i'll just say:
'well that fahlin guy said get one.'

Have A Nice Day!

 

[xxChrisxx]

all that stuff about flow rates, I'm not interested
in cutting things that fine.

So you aren't interested in what makes it work properly?

Which is exactly what you did in the transmission thread.

if 460 doesn't make power I'm covered.
i'll just say:
'well that fahlin guy said get one.'
Have A Nice Day!

This is an engineering forum, perhaps it would be a good idea to apply at least some thought to making it work.

At this rate it sounds like you'll have a mismatched head and block, making no power. Attached to a transmission with the gears removed, fixed in too high a ratio to be useful.

 

[average guy]

chris
ok.i thought i put in here that
i found out somewhere else this:

429/460 heads intake valve size is close
to Cobra Jet valve size.

both intake & exhaust ports on 429/460 are big although there was something about
working on exhaust ports.

it may not be tons of info but it is something.

regarding trans i don't think it's a real big deal.

you're acting like I'm taking corn that could be
used to feed starving people around the world
to make bio diesel. ( that's one of my pet peeves. )

Have A Nice Day!