Attractive force from gauge particle exchange

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of attractive forces arising from the exchange of gauge particles, specifically photons, within the framework of quantum electrodynamics (QED). Participants explore how these exchanges can lead to attraction between charged particles, contrasting this with repulsive interactions and addressing the nature of virtual particles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how photon exchange can create an attractive force, noting that if a proton emits photons that hit an electron, it seems to suggest repulsion according to Newton's third law.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of virtual particles, which can bend certain rules that real particles must follow, potentially allowing for different interpretations of photon interactions.
  • A request is made for references that explain virtual particles without oversimplification, highlighting concerns about misconceptions from popular articles.
  • It is mentioned that while virtual particles cannot be observed directly, their effects, such as the Lamb shift, can be measured.
  • A participant proposes that a simple explanation for the attractive force in QED can be achieved without invoking virtual particles, suggesting a mathematical approach involving the Hamiltonian and Gauss's law.
  • Another participant counters that the term derived from the Hamiltonian resembles the propagator of a virtual photon, indicating a potential connection between the two concepts.
  • Discussion includes a reference to A.Zee's book for further clarification on the topic of quantum field theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and role of virtual particles in explaining attractive forces, with some suggesting alternative explanations that do not rely on them. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to understanding these interactions.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, with some expressing concerns about oversimplifications in popular physics literature that may lead to misunderstandings. The discussion also touches on the mathematical formalism of QED without reaching a consensus on the interpretation of virtual particles.

tommybee
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Photons are referred to as the field quanta for the electromagnetic field.

I would like to understand how the exchange of field quanta such as photons can create an attractive force.

For example, I can see that an electron could repel another electron by hitting it with photons. (radiation pressure ?)

How can the exchange of photons create an attractive force, though ?

For example, how does the exchange of photons cause the attraction of an electron to a proton ? If a proton emits photons that hit an electron, then Newton's third law would suggest that the electron and the proton should repel each other.

Please forgive my naivete if this type of simplistic "billiard ball" physics does no apply to elementary particles.
 
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These are exchange of virtual particles. Virtual particles are allowed to bend some rules which real particles must follow. You can for instance have a photon moving in one direction with a momentum in a different direction.
 
Thanks dauto,

I had read that these field quanta are virtual particles - distinct from standard photons, etc. I would appreciate a link or other reference that explains virtual particles without oversimplification. In this case the oversimplification of some popular physics articles has lead to misconceptions such as in my original question above.

Have these virtual photons been identified (observed) experimentally ?
 
tommybee said:
Thanks dauto,

I had read that these field quanta are virtual particles - distinct from standard photons, etc. I would appreciate a link or other reference that explains virtual particles without oversimplification. In this case the oversimplification of some popular physics articles has lead to misconceptions such as in my original question above.

Have these virtual photons been identified (observed) experimentally ?

Virtual particles cannot be observed directly but their effects can. For instance the lamb shift ix explainable as a consequence of the emission and subsequent absorption of virtual photons.
 
A simple explanation for the attractive force in QED works w/o virtual particles. A sketch of the general idea is

fix the gauge

##A_0=0##

solve Gauß law constraint

##\nabla E = \rho##

and replace the term

##A_0\,\rho##

in the Hamiltonian with the solution for the Gauß law:

##\int d^3x\,d^3y\,\frac{\rho(x)\,\rho(y)}{|x-y|}##

This shows that the Coulomb potential does not depend on "virtual particles.
 
Maybe not explicitly, but it seems to me that the 1/|x-y| term is essentially the propagator of a virtual photon.
 
If you like you can interpret it that way, but it's not necessary; all physical (transversal) photon d.o.f. contribute to other terms in the Hamiltonian
 
I think A.Zee's book "Quantum field theory in a nutshell", gives a good explanation, just in the first chapter.
 

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