Daft question but it's getting late.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the expansion of space and its implications for measurements of distance, particularly in relation to how measuring tools might behave as the universe expands. Participants explore the relationship between the expansion of space and the physical properties of measuring devices, with a focus on clarity and simplicity in explanations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether if space is expanding, then measuring tools are also expanding, suggesting that this might mean the universe appears the same size now as it always has been.
  • Another participant notes that this question is frequently asked and highlights a common misunderstanding regarding the nature of measuring distances in an expanding universe.
  • A detailed explanation is provided about how a steel measuring tape, made of iron atoms, has a preferred spacing that does not change with the expansion of space, leading to a situation where the tape may not reach between galaxies as they move farther apart.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of space expansion for measurements, with some emphasizing the need for clearer explanations while others provide detailed technical reasoning. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the best way to convey these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic and the challenges in communicating it simply. There is an emphasis on the need for clarity in explaining how physical measurements relate to the expansion of the universe.

rdt2
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Daft question... but it's getting late.

Excuse me for being stupid but...

If space itself is expanding, aren't all our measuring sticks also expanding? So if space was smaller in the past, weren't all the measuring sticks correspondingly smaller? Which would make the Universe the same measured size now as it always was? Albeit less lumpy.

Forgive, me it's not my subject - answers in words of one syllable would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Ron.
 
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Sorry - just seen another thread further down with essentially the same question. I'll go there.
 


Originally posted by rdt2
...If space itself is expanding, aren't all our measuring sticks also expanding? ...- answers in words of one syllable would be appreciated.

this is the most frequently asked question, or failure to ask it is the most frequent source of misunderstanding, in all of PF
At least AFAIK (as far as I know, such a useful abbr.!)

The answer SHOULD be available in words of one syllable. That is a very good idea. The answer is quite easy, but, since it is never given in words of one syllable, the people who ought to get it never do quite get it and so keep on asking and asking.

Suppose you have a steel measuring tape made mostly of iron atoms.
there is a preferred distance apart which is most comfortable for them, at room temp, to sit.
So iron atoms have a preferred spacing, and some number of spacings N will constitute a meter, or a kilometer.

Suppose you then stretch the tape. It will still want to go back to the earlier spacing. A meter will stay a meters----N iron atom spacings.

So you have two "galaxies" or other objects, say a kilometer apart. And distances between galaxies increase over time (this is what space expanding means). So you run the kilometer-long metal tape between them and wait for a billion years and come back and find they are say 1 percent farther apart. This has stretched the tape, and it does not like this. It has been stretched to where it is 1.01 kilometers long.

So you release one end and it contracts back to where it is 1.00 kilometers long. The "galaxies" are 1.01 km apart and the tape no longer reaches. After all the tape has only so and so many iron atoms in it (nobody came along and put more iron in the tape) and they have a preferred spacing that depends on their electric charge and their electrons.

So the tape does not quite reach any more.

This is what it means for galaxies to get farther apart. They get more METERS apart. And meters stay the same thing.
 
Last edited:
Marcus,

Your input would be appreciated. I've moved to Vera's 'expanding people' thread.

Regards,

ron.
 
I'll close up this one then.
 

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