What are the implications of time travel in popular culture?

[Integral]

This is some fun stuff

 

[megashawn]

Is there anyone out there trying to debunk this stuff? Its rather spooky, but seems like it could have been forged.

It would be nice to see some of the original posts, although those could be faked as well.

I read most of the page, and it seems that some of the story has credibility, but that all mostly depends on whether or not the dates the author claims JT posted this stuff is true.

True or not, I'm glad I live in a small, rural community away from huge cities.

Is there any credibility to some of the physics claims made? I noticed the author provided some sites to half way back up some of the claims.

Mostly, I'm just responding cause seems like someone should.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

They make all of two suggestions that he might have known something, what the heck is there to de-bunk?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
They make all of two suggestions that he might have known something, what the heck is there to de-bunk?

Here's some more. http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/CopyrightProof.cfm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Titor exposed?

http://pub66.ezboard.com/fthepeanutsgangfrm62.showMessage?topicID=2.topic

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Integral
This is some fun stuff

I expected to find that this whole story was made up last July, but this guy has really gotten people worked up.

http://invisionfree.com/forums/Time_Travel_Hotel/index.php?showtopic=6

http://www.anomalies.net/time_travel/john.html

http://www.anomalies.net/time_travel/irc.html

 

[phoenixthoth]

recently i was banned from mkaku.org for reasons that are still unknown to me. then the site went down. just as the site was shutting down, someone going by the name of john titor was apparently conversing with me. i heard this through my friend who witnessed the activity while i was banned. but now all the conversations are gone.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[KillaMarcilla]

0hh0, how intriguing

At the very least, his advice about appreciating and preserving life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness warrants some merit

Stupid mad cow disease.. although I guess that I shouldn't be eating beef anyway, if I want to lose weight

It'll probably be 2005 by the time I'm down to an average weight anyway..

Maybe I oughtta go through with my plan of visiting/moving to Japan once I get out of college

It certainly would be nice to be the largest person around, although I guess that if I don't like the cost of living in Seattle, then Japan might get old pretty quickly

 

[phoenixthoth]

i love your signiture!

 

[megashawn]

I'm not really sure what to think about this. Of course my gut reaction is that its BS.

Another note that has me even more skeptical is not so much any of John's words, but some of the other claimed Time travelers. These people claim they've gone back in time in order to prove Jesus lived, Muhammed, etc. They've claimed history and science is wrong, and that humans lived with dinosaurs.

We know the last line is simply untrue, unless there is some kinda magic plateu like in "The Lost World". To me, it seems a plot to yet again convince people to get into church.

Some of the stuff John mentioned seems a bit more worth while, atleast to the point where it would be worth looking out for signs of things to come.

I just can't imagine what the US governement would do to prompt a civil war.

Like Integral said, fun stuff. I can't believe I've missed out on this for 3 years, is what gets me.

 

[phoenixthoth]

the john titor that was conversing with me claimed to be living in Canada, not florida. he was apparently trying the writing exercises I've learned and shared with great success; he contacted my friends on mkaku.org and asked questions. he apparently asked me questions but i was banned. now all the messages are gone.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[selfAdjoint]

I never went to the mkaku site before it was transferred here, but I could see that it might be uptight about such things as actual time travel. This is a more forgiving site. Another one is the forum at www.superstringtheory.com,[/URL] where there is a lot of nonstandard theory exposed. They're having some technical problems right now, but some boards are open.

 

[phoenixthoth]

cool. i'll check it out!

thanks.

 

[Sunfist]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
I never went to the mkaku site before it was transferred here, but I could see that it might be uptight about such things as actual time travel. This is a more forgiving site. Another one is the forum at www.superstringtheory.com,[/URL] where there is a lot of nonstandard theory exposed. They're having some technical problems right now, but some boards are open. [/B][/QUOTE]

I was a moderator at the MKaku website and I can assure you that we were not uptight there. We often discussed such ideas as time travel. We had a theoretical physics section as well as others that dealt with such things. Heck, we even had a Science Fiction section, just for fun.

MKaku is a big fan of science fiction and enjoys discussing ideas now matter how rediculous they might seem. Dr. Kaku was on "Unscreweed" for crying out loud.

No, we were not an uptight group of people.

 

[Sunfist]

By the way, I just went and looked at the "Copywrite Proof of Evidence" thing and all that happened is that someone copywrited some of the things that Titor supposedly said. That doesn't mean anything. Anything can by copywrited. It doesn't mean it's real. By that, I mean, it doesn't even mean some guy named John Titor said any of it.

The American Civil War II thing is odd, though. Whoever is perpetrating this hoax will have it blown out of the water in two years. Unless they use the parallel worlds excuse.

 

[Zantra]

I just finished reading the whole thing- I haven't read the debunking websites yet, but I'm assuming he hasn't been debunked yet as this is still a topic of discussion.

If it is bunk, a lot of time and effort went into this, and this guy is no dummy- he would have had to do quite a bit of physics research to pull this off.

One thing that stuck out to me, was that he mentioned the civil war resulting from loss of civil rights- people were being invaded and having their houses searched by the government. This correlates with the increased security resulting from 9/11. It is being scaled back, however it would be very easy to imagine it cascading out of control, were the US to suffer another terrorist attack. Sacrifice of personal liberties to ensure public security- he made reference to this belief in regards to the civil war. However I find it incredulous that he didn't even make a faint reference to the 9/11 incident. He seemed to favor March 21st as a significant date- but no year, so that could be 2004, 2008, or even 2015. Could he pull it off if he had sufficient time, means, and motivation? No doubt he could do the phyics reseach- the pictures would have required him to actually build a replica. I remain a skeptic as always, but here's my proposition.

If he's wrong-*shrug* another wacko hits the dust. But if he's actually a time traveller-god help us all. And he was right- no one will take him seriously- at least not until 2004 if events escalate. With a bleak future like that, I'm sure we'd all rather think he's a babbling idiot.

EDIT: There's a very quick current way to verfiy everything he's saying. Because according to him, in 2001 or 2002 CERN accidently created a microsingularity. His explanation is that by bombarding a microsingularity smaller than the size of an electron, WITH electrons you broaden the event horizon, and thus the gravitational field. He forthermore says that by overlapping the fields from 2 microsingularities you can travel through time. I believe his says this is discovered through a super-collider at CERN, but that the supercollider isn't completed until 2007-conflicting story, but I may have the details mixed up.

Anyone familiar with a discovery of a microsingularity at CERN?

As an aside, I emailed this pamela girl inviting her to comment in this post about the validity(or her view of) his authenticity. We'll see if she stops in

 

[Zantra]

Could THIS be the discovery John Titon spoke of? it's still too early to tell...

August 13, 2003
High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK)



The High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK) announced that the Belle collaboration, an international research team working at the KEKB accelerator, found evidence for a new phenomenon that cannot be explained by the Standard Model of elementary particles.

The KEKB accelerator is a device for generating a large number of very shortlived subatomic particles called B mesons as well as their anti-matter counterparts. These particles, each with a mass somewhat greater than that of the helium atom, disintegrate after about a few trillionths of a second into lighter and more long-lived daughters, and these decay products are detected by the Belle detector

http://www.kek.jp/press/2003/belle3e.html

Also here's a post by jon titor on 3/14/01

The faulty part of your description for your device involves Hawking Radiation. Its not the size of the singularity that matters, its the mass involved that determines the temperature of the radiation.


You seem to be quite upset and I understand your argument. I do however think it is important to gather the facts and probabilities before expelling emotional energy on them. Please keep in mind that I have not shared all the technical details of the machine with you. So an easy out would be for me to just make something up.


However, and as I'm sure you are aware, Stephen Hawking admits that his own equations support the "possibility" that microsingularities may not totally disappear as they evaporate in a sea of virtual particles and in fact may leave behind a very stable naked singularity. I'm sure you can look that up. I suppose the difficult part is believing that we've taken advantage of it, not that it's impossible.


So it is possible that the naked singularity he's referring to COULD(and I stress could) be the same thing that was recently discovered in my above CERN link. Something to consider...

 

[Zantra]

The Final Debunking word

Well it appears this thing picked up quite a following, but Now for the final word from Dr Robert G Brown, Physicist

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000482

 

[phoenixthoth]

i tried registering on that site but my email has already been banned so that i cannot. interesting.

i can't even begin to speculate on why that is; i feel it must be an error.

i'm trying to contact john for myself for i have my own questions. one of them is this: why would someone pretend to be a time traveler from the future, theoretically speaking; what would they have to gain?

on the site, the physicist (if I'm not mistaken) reported that john wishes as few contacts as possible (for his own reasons). but he apparenly will spend time with a physicist. why, i ask? why the need for validation from relatively primative scientists? how on Earth could sufficiently advanced science be explained to those of a limited viewpoint? how would we explain superstring theory to the anceint egyptians? they wouldn't believe us and call us frauds. it sounds to me as if this john character is in his own self-reinforcing delusional world if he isn't a bona fide time traveler. he can always excuse himself by suggesting that current science just can't understand his advanced science. in fact, anyone with sufficient background in science fiction knows that if you just go through a portal created by chronaton particles, you can travel to any point in time instantaneously and always argue that it's just that the chronoton hasn't been discovered yet because it isn't sought for. what a problem...

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

 

[Eh]

Just when I think people in this part of the world can't get any dumber, something like this comes up. I mean, how gullible does one have to be in order to buy into this nonsense? Making educated guesses about the future is easy.

 

[Zantra]

phoenix-

I tried registering too and had trouble. It wouldn't take any of my generic(hotmail, yahoo, etc) email accounts. I think they banned them or something, and in fact had to register a personal account to get it to work. It said the other ones were banned, and I'd never been to that site before. Just a heads up.

 

[phoenixthoth]

let me reply to both recent posts.

zantra, thanks for the heads up. for a second there, i felt like i had become a specific target for some reason; it is enlightening to know that others with generic emails are blocked as well. thanks for the heads up. i will try registering under a different email address. luckily i have one up my sleeve.

as for the gullibility comment, i'd like to point out that no one here has expressed the opinion that they believe this john titor guy, only that we find him an interesting topic for discussion. it is our time to waste on the subject, though it raises geeneric questions such as where are time traveling tourists and historians? are they here but keeping a low profile because they're following rules about not influencing the timeline? why go back in time to witness it when you can just read about it in a book? maybe there is seen to be no need to go back in time. perhaps the interesting direction is FORWARDS and therefore we would never encounter a time traveler. perhaps that's why there are no time travelers: they can easily access history from their own sources without the need to actually go back and witness it. or maybe they also have invented an invisibility potion by then and they're all around us but invisible to current technology. but, at that point, who really cares if there are time travelers here if they're not going to influece the timeline and not going to interact with us historical figures?

(btw, zantra, i love the highlander series! do you think duncan will be the last immortal standing when the dust settles? wouldn't it be a tragedy if he was the last one standing and got killed in some stupid accident?)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
let me reply to both recent posts.

zantra, thanks for the heads up. for a second there, i felt like i had become a specific target for some reason; it is enlightening to know that others with generic emails are blocked as well. thanks for the heads up. i will try registering under a different email address. luckily i have one up my sleeve.

as for the gullibility comment, i'd like to point out that no one here has expressed the opinion that they believe this john titor guy, only that we find him an interesting topic for discussion. it is our time to waste on the subject, though it raises geeneric questions such as where are time traveling tourists and historians? are they here but keeping a low profile because they're following rules about not influencing the timeline? why go back in time to witness it when you can just read about it in a book? maybe there is seen to be no need to go back in time. perhaps the interesting direction is FORWARDS and therefore we would never encounter a time traveler. perhaps that's why there are no time travelers: they can easily access history from their own sources without the need to actually go back and witness it. or maybe they also have invented an invisibility potion by then and they're all around us but invisible to current technology. but, at that point, who really cares if there are time travelers here if they're not going to influece the timeline and not going to interact with us historical figures?

(btw, zantra, i love the highlander series! do you think duncan will be the last immortal standing when the dust settles? wouldn't it be a tragedy if he was the last one standing and got killed in some stupid accident?)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

Yes that truly would be a tragedy, but who says those writers don't have a sick sense of humor?.

As far as why they would go back. Well don't you think if you had a chance to go back to the time of christ and witness it firsthand, it's a lot more interesting than just reading the bible? If indeed time travel does exist, they are no doubt keeping a low profile. One thing we can learn from John Titor was his exploitation of the common perception. Even if you DID claim to be a time traveller, and were genuine. And short of taking people for a ride, who's going to believe you? No without making some accurate near-future predictions that come true. Now if he'd even HINTED at 9-11, he'd have made a believer out of me. But he didn't drop so much as a hint before he left- Stating all these rules of non-intervention etc, etc. In psychological circles this is known as a self-reinforcing delusion. Indeed he made absolutely no predictions prior to leaving, except those far enough in the future that he wouldn't be held accountable when they didn't come true. John titor isn't a real name- as he himself pointed out- TIme Travel OR. if he was truly a historic observer, he could have interacted without even revealing himself and accomplished the same goal. If he were adhering to those self imposed "TT rules" he supposedly followed, he wouldn't have mentioned it. It's simply narcissism. He needed to feed his ego, and he suceeeded. This is some wacko. I'm pretty well satisfied of it.

 

[phoenixthoth]

so i take it that the physicist on anomalies.net, in your opinion, successfully debunked john?

isn't it possible that current science just can't understand advanced science?

but, then again, this leads us back to the position that he's in a self-reinforcing delusion. how do you, really, convince someone that their reality, the reality they see, is WRONG? especially someone who believes it so strongly based on skant evidence, evidence that is circumstantial and sounding like science fiction?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Sunfist]

In my opinion, Titor is one of two things. One, a fraud. Two, like the man in the novel KPAX. In other words, his delusion is so complete, that his mind is capable of coming up with pseudoscience that actually makes sense in some situations. (And repeats, ie, if you ask him a question twice, you get the same answer.)

 

[phoenixthoth]

"It is only the inferior thinker who hastens to explain the singular and the complex by the primitive shortcut of supernaturalism."

i agree that those seem to be the two possible opinions on john. i agree that his position is respetable from a certain point of view, if i were to muddle your words a little...

now that you've stated that these are the two possible opinions one can have on mr. titor, what is YOUR position?

my position is to remain undecided for now and to continue finding the idea interesting enough to investigate further and NOT a waste of time.

i would only be convinced that he is a time traveler if i were to go for a ride with him in his machine. i have predecided that that is what will constitute proof that he is a time traveler. until then, i will remain interested but undecided.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
so i take it that the physicist on anomalies.net, in your opinion, successfully debunked john?

isn't it possible that current science just can't understand advanced science?

but, then again, this leads us back to the position that he's in a self-reinforcing delusion. how do you, really, convince someone that their reality, the reality they see, is WRONG? especially someone who believes it so strongly based on skant evidence, evidence that is circumstantial and sounding like science fiction?

cheers,
phoenix

I never peg anything at 100 percent unless I'm sure of it. Do I know without a shred of doubt that 1+1=2? Yes. I'm I 100 percent convinced he's a wacko?No. There's a small percentage of me that holds out the possibility that there may be some truth to this. If events were to begin escalating in 2004 towards a civil war, no doubt I'd pay attention, and perhaps even take action. But as he said, the signs will be obvious, so I have plenty of time to plan

 

[phoenixthoth]

i think higher truth can be learned from the equation 1 + 1 = 2.

here's why.

that's not something you can prove. not even close. i can explain to you why this can't be proved if you permit me and ask me to. this is what my master's background in mathematics leads me to believe; this is what the evidence indicates. so, for the moment, I'm making an appeal to myself as an authority but i would remain skeptical if i were you that it is impossible to prove that 1+1=2.

here's the higher truth.

you can believe that 1+1=2 without proof. to generalize, you can believe something, in fact know something to be true, without having proof.

therefore, it is conceivable (at best) that one could believe in God without proof.

the question is this: what constitutes ample evidence? there is all kinds of evidence: legal evidence, mathematical evidence, scientific evidence, philosophical evidence, just to name a few.

what argument and/or evidence would be pursuasive enough to convince someone that God exists? for me, direct first-hand experience cuts it. for me, that is ample evidence. elsewhere, I've posted suggestions on how to see God for yourself and i only wonder why wouldn't you be willing to put in the time and effort on the matter. it took me about two months (not to mention the rest of my life) of concentrated (though non-directed) effort to obtain any results, positive or negative on the God issue.

knowledge is power; ignorance is bliss: you decide. (secret: you can have both power and bliss).

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I agree-direct first hand physical evidence is my requirement. IMO he hasn't provided that. On the other hand it has niether been unequivicably proven that he's a fraud. Some will make an ASSUMPTION of that based on the lack of available evidence- that is their shortcoming, not to mention a double standard. science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise.

*shrug*

 

[Sunfist]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i agree that those seem to be the two possible opinions on john. i agree that his position is respetable from a certain point of view, if i were to muddle your words a little...

now that you've stated that these are the two possible opinions one can have on mr. titor, what is YOUR position?

my position is to remain undecided for now and to continue finding the idea interesting enough to investigate further and NOT a waste of time.

i would only be convinced that he is a time traveler if i were to go for a ride with him in his machine. i have predecided that that is what will constitute proof that he is a time traveler. until then, i will remain interested but undecided.

cheers,
phoenix

I haven't made up my mind. I tend to believe the second one more than the first. I don't really think he is lying as much as insane. I highly doubt that he is a time traveller.

I am also not going to discuss him any more because if he is lying, then this is his motivation. To see how many people he can get talking about him. I'm not going to join in. I'm just goin to think about it to myself.

I agree. The only way I would believe him is to be taken inside a time machine with him. Of course, even though his discussions have survived 3 years and are still talked about, I imagine he will be discussed a lot less in another 3 years. (That is, unless the US really does enter a civil war. Then, he might be talked about a great deal more.)

 

[phoenixthoth]

"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

i agree with that fully. furthermore, i find it dissapointing, though understandable, that respectable physicists will not "waste time" investigating "alternate" theories and try to disprove them. i think it would be really educational to find the flaw in the argument and line of inquiry. i think it would help the discovery process along a little. but, then again, debunking theories is kinda a waste of time when you could spend time developing what you think is the right theory. on that note, i find it interesting that string theorists have NO experimental evidence that they're not ALL INSANE. depends on what you mean by "insane." i have a love/hate relationship with the word insane. i believe insanity is seeing a reality no one else sees, or that only few others see. in that sense, columbus and his collective that thought the Earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones. why bother talking to insane people, then? well, IMO, they are right about 1% of the time. if you talk to 100 insane people, you'll get a revolutionary idea once. the rest of them are spinning their collective wheels. i admire their inspiration either way. (i distance myself from the group of insane people when all the evidence indicates that I'm insane as well... *shrug*)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I'd read those posts of his about the future. I prefer choice A. he's a wacked out nutjob otherwise I'm making my preperations to go to south america

 

[phoenixthoth]

the way i see things, though perhaps i watch the news too much, the world is heading towards a major global conflict within the next 50 years almost certainly. and i find this thought very disturbing and troubling. I'm not so sure there will be a civil war II or WWIII but that war will be raging in all corners of the globe by dozens of sides by 2050 if we (or THEY) can't figure out what to do.

someone here once said that it's not hard to predict the immediate future and this is the future i predict; it's not based on magic, it seems to be a logical consequence of the way things are going.

so what can i possibly do about it? should i, like you, consider moving to south america? should i learn survival skills? should i stock up in food and figure out alernate sources of food?

how distressing!

--phoenix

 

[Zantra]

It's a hoax folks

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

And the story unravels itsself. Check out the pamela post towards the end of this post

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000454;p=5

Phoenix

For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's very possible that we are headed towards another major world conflict. That's what made us actually consider this JT guy as a possibility- he was playing on the fears that I'm sure many of us have, myself included- that nuclear war is eminent, and a seemingly unescapable reality that we must face. In the 1960's there was a similar paranoia during the the cold war and the cuban missle crisis. People were building bomb shelters and holding war drills in schools. though I wouldn't like to see this type of paranoia grip our society, it is a nagging reality in the backs of our minds. Should we all give up our homes and lifesyles to relocated to remote locations of the US and the rest of the globe in hopes of surviving a nuclear holocaust that may come in months, years, decades, or perhaps not even in our lifetimes? I guess that depends on on how strong your survival instinct is. Some would not want to, and even more COULD not survive the aftermath of a fullout nuclear war. As for me, if I were given sufficient warnings and time, I would make every effort to survive, but the reality of it is that unless you're given at least a day's warning to get away from any major city, you either wouldn't survive, or would die a slow, horrible, and painful death from nuclear radiation poisoning. Personally, I would hope to go in the initial blast, rather than the 2nd alternative.

Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last.

 

[phoenixthoth]

"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

 

[merak]

hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by radagast
I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

Really we agree but with one qualifier: Occam's razor is just a guideline. This is not a test for reality. Sometimes the more complicated explanation is required.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by merak
hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

I agree we do have to solve our domestic problems too. Also think Bush's foreign policy sucks, and he used the 9/11 attacks to justify his Saddam agenda and to finish what his father didn't. Hopefully the next president will able to the mend the fences that Bush is tearing down.

I'm sorry to hear that you were homeless. Though I did come from a modest upbringing, I've always been blessed with a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The US is too self-absorbed in it's own problems to look up and see just how good we have it. Haven't been to other countries, I can tell you that even the poor here live in the lap of luxury compared to most countries.

 

[phoenixthoth]

no, zantra, you are quite wrong about the poor here living in the lap of luxury compared to what is going on in other countries. the poor here are in the same boat as the poor in other countries. I'm particularly speaking of the "mentally ill" homeless.

i must admit that you are partially right. for example, in ione where i live, there is a homeless shelter (with limited beds) and YOU CAN STAY FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. if you haven't got a job and saved enough for housing all in only a month, where are you supposed to go from there? homeless shelter to homeless shelter? what a messed up life that is. the unemployment problem, the way i see it, is near a depression stage right now and it has the potential to lead to a chain reaction of unemployment and people stuck in welfare with nowhere to go. many people right here in "enlightened," "free," "democratic," america have NO WHERE TO GO. i think these issues need to be addressed before we go about nation building without a clue how to do it. it seems like we learned something about nation building with germany and japan but we may not be using those lessons in iraq simply because we are unwelcome in iraq. why stick our collective noses in others' business? and why choose only iraq and afganistan? what about all the other "evil" empires out there?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I should rephrase that to I HAVE been to other countries and seen the conditions there. I'm not saying the homeless have it good compared to the rest of us, but compared to the rest of the 3rd world countries, even the homeless have more advantages. They also have job opportunities that aren't available even to the people WITH a home. Mentally ill homeless is another story.

 

[phoenixthoth]

zantra,

i've been to other countries too through the eyes of cameras on tv. i must change my statement and agree with you that homeless here have a few more opportunities than elsewhere. in native american culture, the homeless can approach ANYONE's home and assume he will be welcome as long as he does his or her share of chores and farmwork. i view that as the way it should go, but people are so corrupted by their urges to steal that no one can logically trust a stranger in their home. in native america, people were more trusting. it's almost like a wanderer becomes a part of the family. the family asks HIM what he has learned in his travels.

the mentally ill homeless is quite another story. society, it seems, is quite unsympathetic and dispassionate towards the mentally ill. in reality, there is no working solution for the severely disturbed. I've known people maxed out (dose wise) on medication and therapy but they just don't respond to treatment. why not consider the possibility that what they need is SPIRITUAL healing? no one has the tools, it seems, for spiritual healing either. certainly, doctors don't. the twelve step programs probably do but then you have to buy into the existence of a higher power. we're taught by a religionless education system to be highly skeptical of any higher power, so we are cut off from that resource and have to teach ourselves the hard way.

doubt of a higher power is quite a powerful tool, almost a weapon; a weapon indirectly cutting at the very core of the spiritual self. there are many who don't even believe they have a soul to sell.


phoenix

 

[merak]

Originally posted by Zantra
maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

zantra..I was laughing at the time traveler.there is nothing funny about war.
I can not see a time machine being built by 2036.
IF some said he was from the year 9036 maybe,but only if he could offer proof...

 

[Zantra]

ok just wanted to clear that up

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

columbus and his collective that thought the Earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones.

The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know. However, this is not why Columbus sailed. It is a common misconception that he daringly sailed (romantically enough)to find out if the Earth was round or not but he really did it to find out how big it was. I mean, we know of the political and economic reasons (hopefully) but I'm referring to the scientific ones. Besides, I was reading a book about ancient science and it mentioned something about Columbus knowing the Earth was round simply by observing the water and islands.

Have you ever thought that it was about determining just how big the Earth was rather than how round it was? Because, centuries before now a Greek mathematician determined the Earth was round and later a Muslim mathematician would determine the same thing. Amazingly, they even were able to get an idea of just how big around it is. At that time it was thought circa 24,000 miles. Of course, this isn't accurate but these folks were doing this stuff without Satellites :) Um, colonial surveying technology (acting in lieu of GPS), impressive as it still is, is another topic altogether.

Oh yeah, and Amerigo Vespucci (I'm not Titoring you) was not the one America was named after. Since, the maps he procured were from a European investor named a certain Mr. Ameryke who had them charted in search of fishing areas on the Atlantic. Anyways, the maps already had the name 'America' on them :)

On another foot, the people here need to get some perspective.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

At least it seems they are so caught up in this 'John Titor' moniker. I think its fun and when 04-05 rolls around and a nuclear holocaust starts, well it won't be fun. However, I doubt that will happen. I think 'John' as we call him is just an intelligent, knowledgeable, creative person.

People are so awed by his ability to make general predictions about the future, some of which seem to have come true. However, I can throw out some vague predictions of what will happen tomorrow (metaphorically speaking) and some of them will probably come true. 'John' is just an insightful type with a knack for creative writing.

I enjoyed reading his stuff and for a while (all of a few minutes) he really had me taken in. However, I'll remain with an open mind but I'd like to think his reality does not come to be. At least the part with nuclear war, I mean come on that's kind of bleak.

Obviously this 'farmer soldier' type he is referring to is Cincinnatus (fyi, a Roman General who saved Rome and went right back to farming like he did before). He sounds like he knows the constitution and the history behind the founding father's. So do a lot of people, including myself. It seems as if he follows a more Jeffersonian view of how the U.S. should be.

Anyways, his message about not being lazy, taking responsibility and understanding that 'bigger' isn't always 'better' was well received here. As well, studying the U.S. constitution, I think that's important to. And, his thoughts on less centralized education, I agree with.

But, I always ask myself when confronted with a dilemma, which seems more likely? Then I tell myself to keep an open mind with an absence of data but go with the more likely possiblity in the mean time. With this John Titor fellow, let's just hope he's a rational prankster who's just having fun. If he's a delusional, well I feel sorry for him, I really do. And if he's for real, wow what a barbecue we might be heading for at this moment!

I enjoyed reading his thing and if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Let's not speculate as fact everyone! I know people on this board would likely agree but, some people searching on Google (like myself) would not understand that concept. That's one area where people piss me off, unless of course, if they aren't playing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
...if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

I think the FiSh speaks the truth.

Now there's a sentence I never expected to write!

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

Its all about looking for purpose. Sometimes I do find some and other times I don't. This instance it was obvious because he was interspersing it throughout his comments.

Um, I hate to ruin the fun of a practical joke by looking for purpose though. Initially, I just got a kick out of it. I mean, its so funny yet so entertaining in an entirely other way.

I hope dear John 'Time Travel oR' isn't a psychotic or delusional. I wish he's just some educated fellow getting a laugh out of us.

I think he was telling the truth in one regard, he has been homeschooled. Its obvious in his breadth of knowledge and wide ranging interests as well as his creativity. Sorry for any of you regularly educated folks but I think homeschooling is supreme.

 

[phoenixthoth]

"The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know."

that's all i was saying. i made no mention of why columbus sailed. at least, i don't remember saying it was just to prove the world was round or to prove that he wasn't insane. i doubt his primary goal was to measure the Earth's circumferance, though. my good old american education system told me that he wanted to find a hopefully cheaper route to india. i guess that's the source of my doubt that he had a scientific goal; so, being the USA's history system as it apparently is, i guess the doubt may be unjustified.

how the greeks and others could present evidence leading one to conclude the Earth was round, which i was aware of, and then many people still thinking it was flat is *somewhat* of a mystery to me.

interesting choice of word, "superstition." would you say it was a common "superstition" that the sound barrier couldn't be broken or that people will never be able to build flying machines? in ten thousand years, will they say that in 2003 it was a common superstition that time travel was impossible? will they say it was a common supersititon that exceeding the speed of light is impossible? i guess i should ask john titor. oh wait, he's only from 2036. it seems to me like what we think is rational now doesn't appear to be later all the time (eg, later it may be referred to as a superstition). it's not that it suddenly irrational, but that it wasn't rational ENOUGH.

you could pick this apart further and observe that the superstitions regarding the sound barrier and flying machines were inductive conclusions based on many, many experiments. i don't think there was a way to deductively prove that those beliefs were correct. they turned out to be incorrect, so i guess that rules out the possibility of deductively proving they were correct. on the other hand, people as far as i know are making deductive arguments regarding time travel and the speed of light barrier. so perhaps these shouldn't be considered superstitions. on the third hand, deductive arguments are based on premises. so one is forced to accept those before accepting the conclusions, of course. I'm not very inclined to accept einsteins axioms of special relativity at the moment, however. nor am i inclined to reject them. call me an Einstein agnostic. that being the case, i can't be sure if the speed of light can be exceeded. I'm equally up in the air on the time travel issue.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

TL;DR

rhetorical rebuttal of yours

I think believing the world is flat is a superstition don't you? There was no purpose for you to devote a whole paragraph to waxing in my terminology (even if it did sound rational, it was smacking of the juvenile). Could you possibly get your point out more succinctly? Thanks, in forward.

And I said hopefully people know the economic reasons. Obviously you do, so there was no need for you to mention that.

But if you want a source for the Greek and Muslim mathematicians try

Lost Discoveries - The Ancient Roots of Modern Science - from the Babylonians to the Maya

BY DICK TERESI

I think good old John is a fake. I also thing you are postulating to much. This thread is good for kicks but not if people are so mediocre.

One thing I noticed about everyone on this board is you are pseudoscientific babble boxes.

But here's some of 'John's' alleged stuff found on a crack pot web site:

http://www.johntitor.com/JohnsPictures.htm

Take a look at that time machine! Looks like something out of Back to the Future.

With that said, here's a website for you to peruse:

www.skeptic.com/