What are the implications of time travel in popular culture?

[phoenixthoth]

"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

i agree with that fully. furthermore, i find it dissapointing, though understandable, that respectable physicists will not "waste time" investigating "alternate" theories and try to disprove them. i think it would be really educational to find the flaw in the argument and line of inquiry. i think it would help the discovery process along a little. but, then again, debunking theories is kinda a waste of time when you could spend time developing what you think is the right theory. on that note, i find it interesting that string theorists have NO experimental evidence that they're not ALL INSANE. depends on what you mean by "insane." i have a love/hate relationship with the word insane. i believe insanity is seeing a reality no one else sees, or that only few others see. in that sense, columbus and his collective that thought the Earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones. why bother talking to insane people, then? well, IMO, they are right about 1% of the time. if you talk to 100 insane people, you'll get a revolutionary idea once. the rest of them are spinning their collective wheels. i admire their inspiration either way. (i distance myself from the group of insane people when all the evidence indicates that I'm insane as well... *shrug*)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I'd read those posts of his about the future. I prefer choice A. he's a wacked out nutjob otherwise I'm making my preperations to go to south america

 

[phoenixthoth]

the way i see things, though perhaps i watch the news too much, the world is heading towards a major global conflict within the next 50 years almost certainly. and i find this thought very disturbing and troubling. I'm not so sure there will be a civil war II or WWIII but that war will be raging in all corners of the globe by dozens of sides by 2050 if we (or THEY) can't figure out what to do.

someone here once said that it's not hard to predict the immediate future and this is the future i predict; it's not based on magic, it seems to be a logical consequence of the way things are going.

so what can i possibly do about it? should i, like you, consider moving to south america? should i learn survival skills? should i stock up in food and figure out alernate sources of food?

how distressing!

--phoenix

 

[Zantra]

It's a hoax folks

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

And the story unravels itsself. Check out the pamela post towards the end of this post

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000454;p=5

Phoenix

For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's very possible that we are headed towards another major world conflict. That's what made us actually consider this JT guy as a possibility- he was playing on the fears that I'm sure many of us have, myself included- that nuclear war is eminent, and a seemingly unescapable reality that we must face. In the 1960's there was a similar paranoia during the the cold war and the cuban missle crisis. People were building bomb shelters and holding war drills in schools. though I wouldn't like to see this type of paranoia grip our society, it is a nagging reality in the backs of our minds. Should we all give up our homes and lifesyles to relocated to remote locations of the US and the rest of the globe in hopes of surviving a nuclear holocaust that may come in months, years, decades, or perhaps not even in our lifetimes? I guess that depends on on how strong your survival instinct is. Some would not want to, and even more COULD not survive the aftermath of a fullout nuclear war. As for me, if I were given sufficient warnings and time, I would make every effort to survive, but the reality of it is that unless you're given at least a day's warning to get away from any major city, you either wouldn't survive, or would die a slow, horrible, and painful death from nuclear radiation poisoning. Personally, I would hope to go in the initial blast, rather than the 2nd alternative.

Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last.

 

[phoenixthoth]

"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

 

[merak]

hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by radagast
I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

Really we agree but with one qualifier: Occam's razor is just a guideline. This is not a test for reality. Sometimes the more complicated explanation is required.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by merak
hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

I agree we do have to solve our domestic problems too. Also think Bush's foreign policy sucks, and he used the 9/11 attacks to justify his Saddam agenda and to finish what his father didn't. Hopefully the next president will able to the mend the fences that Bush is tearing down.

I'm sorry to hear that you were homeless. Though I did come from a modest upbringing, I've always been blessed with a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The US is too self-absorbed in it's own problems to look up and see just how good we have it. Haven't been to other countries, I can tell you that even the poor here live in the lap of luxury compared to most countries.

 

[phoenixthoth]

no, zantra, you are quite wrong about the poor here living in the lap of luxury compared to what is going on in other countries. the poor here are in the same boat as the poor in other countries. I'm particularly speaking of the "mentally ill" homeless.

i must admit that you are partially right. for example, in ione where i live, there is a homeless shelter (with limited beds) and YOU CAN STAY FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. if you haven't got a job and saved enough for housing all in only a month, where are you supposed to go from there? homeless shelter to homeless shelter? what a messed up life that is. the unemployment problem, the way i see it, is near a depression stage right now and it has the potential to lead to a chain reaction of unemployment and people stuck in welfare with nowhere to go. many people right here in "enlightened," "free," "democratic," america have NO WHERE TO GO. i think these issues need to be addressed before we go about nation building without a clue how to do it. it seems like we learned something about nation building with germany and japan but we may not be using those lessons in iraq simply because we are unwelcome in iraq. why stick our collective noses in others' business? and why choose only iraq and afganistan? what about all the other "evil" empires out there?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I should rephrase that to I HAVE been to other countries and seen the conditions there. I'm not saying the homeless have it good compared to the rest of us, but compared to the rest of the 3rd world countries, even the homeless have more advantages. They also have job opportunities that aren't available even to the people WITH a home. Mentally ill homeless is another story.

 

[phoenixthoth]

zantra,

i've been to other countries too through the eyes of cameras on tv. i must change my statement and agree with you that homeless here have a few more opportunities than elsewhere. in native american culture, the homeless can approach ANYONE's home and assume he will be welcome as long as he does his or her share of chores and farmwork. i view that as the way it should go, but people are so corrupted by their urges to steal that no one can logically trust a stranger in their home. in native america, people were more trusting. it's almost like a wanderer becomes a part of the family. the family asks HIM what he has learned in his travels.

the mentally ill homeless is quite another story. society, it seems, is quite unsympathetic and dispassionate towards the mentally ill. in reality, there is no working solution for the severely disturbed. I've known people maxed out (dose wise) on medication and therapy but they just don't respond to treatment. why not consider the possibility that what they need is SPIRITUAL healing? no one has the tools, it seems, for spiritual healing either. certainly, doctors don't. the twelve step programs probably do but then you have to buy into the existence of a higher power. we're taught by a religionless education system to be highly skeptical of any higher power, so we are cut off from that resource and have to teach ourselves the hard way.

doubt of a higher power is quite a powerful tool, almost a weapon; a weapon indirectly cutting at the very core of the spiritual self. there are many who don't even believe they have a soul to sell.


phoenix

 

[merak]

Originally posted by Zantra
maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

zantra..I was laughing at the time traveler.there is nothing funny about war.
I can not see a time machine being built by 2036.
IF some said he was from the year 9036 maybe,but only if he could offer proof...

 

[Zantra]

ok just wanted to clear that up

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

columbus and his collective that thought the Earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones.

The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know. However, this is not why Columbus sailed. It is a common misconception that he daringly sailed (romantically enough)to find out if the Earth was round or not but he really did it to find out how big it was. I mean, we know of the political and economic reasons (hopefully) but I'm referring to the scientific ones. Besides, I was reading a book about ancient science and it mentioned something about Columbus knowing the Earth was round simply by observing the water and islands.

Have you ever thought that it was about determining just how big the Earth was rather than how round it was? Because, centuries before now a Greek mathematician determined the Earth was round and later a Muslim mathematician would determine the same thing. Amazingly, they even were able to get an idea of just how big around it is. At that time it was thought circa 24,000 miles. Of course, this isn't accurate but these folks were doing this stuff without Satellites :) Um, colonial surveying technology (acting in lieu of GPS), impressive as it still is, is another topic altogether.

Oh yeah, and Amerigo Vespucci (I'm not Titoring you) was not the one America was named after. Since, the maps he procured were from a European investor named a certain Mr. Ameryke who had them charted in search of fishing areas on the Atlantic. Anyways, the maps already had the name 'America' on them :)

On another foot, the people here need to get some perspective.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

At least it seems they are so caught up in this 'John Titor' moniker. I think its fun and when 04-05 rolls around and a nuclear holocaust starts, well it won't be fun. However, I doubt that will happen. I think 'John' as we call him is just an intelligent, knowledgeable, creative person.

People are so awed by his ability to make general predictions about the future, some of which seem to have come true. However, I can throw out some vague predictions of what will happen tomorrow (metaphorically speaking) and some of them will probably come true. 'John' is just an insightful type with a knack for creative writing.

I enjoyed reading his stuff and for a while (all of a few minutes) he really had me taken in. However, I'll remain with an open mind but I'd like to think his reality does not come to be. At least the part with nuclear war, I mean come on that's kind of bleak.

Obviously this 'farmer soldier' type he is referring to is Cincinnatus (fyi, a Roman General who saved Rome and went right back to farming like he did before). He sounds like he knows the constitution and the history behind the founding father's. So do a lot of people, including myself. It seems as if he follows a more Jeffersonian view of how the U.S. should be.

Anyways, his message about not being lazy, taking responsibility and understanding that 'bigger' isn't always 'better' was well received here. As well, studying the U.S. constitution, I think that's important to. And, his thoughts on less centralized education, I agree with.

But, I always ask myself when confronted with a dilemma, which seems more likely? Then I tell myself to keep an open mind with an absence of data but go with the more likely possiblity in the mean time. With this John Titor fellow, let's just hope he's a rational prankster who's just having fun. If he's a delusional, well I feel sorry for him, I really do. And if he's for real, wow what a barbecue we might be heading for at this moment!

I enjoyed reading his thing and if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Let's not speculate as fact everyone! I know people on this board would likely agree but, some people searching on Google (like myself) would not understand that concept. That's one area where people piss me off, unless of course, if they aren't playing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
...if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

I think the FiSh speaks the truth.

Now there's a sentence I never expected to write!

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

Its all about looking for purpose. Sometimes I do find some and other times I don't. This instance it was obvious because he was interspersing it throughout his comments.

Um, I hate to ruin the fun of a practical joke by looking for purpose though. Initially, I just got a kick out of it. I mean, its so funny yet so entertaining in an entirely other way.

I hope dear John 'Time Travel oR' isn't a psychotic or delusional. I wish he's just some educated fellow getting a laugh out of us.

I think he was telling the truth in one regard, he has been homeschooled. Its obvious in his breadth of knowledge and wide ranging interests as well as his creativity. Sorry for any of you regularly educated folks but I think homeschooling is supreme.

 

[phoenixthoth]

"The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know."

that's all i was saying. i made no mention of why columbus sailed. at least, i don't remember saying it was just to prove the world was round or to prove that he wasn't insane. i doubt his primary goal was to measure the Earth's circumferance, though. my good old american education system told me that he wanted to find a hopefully cheaper route to india. i guess that's the source of my doubt that he had a scientific goal; so, being the USA's history system as it apparently is, i guess the doubt may be unjustified.

how the greeks and others could present evidence leading one to conclude the Earth was round, which i was aware of, and then many people still thinking it was flat is *somewhat* of a mystery to me.

interesting choice of word, "superstition." would you say it was a common "superstition" that the sound barrier couldn't be broken or that people will never be able to build flying machines? in ten thousand years, will they say that in 2003 it was a common superstition that time travel was impossible? will they say it was a common supersititon that exceeding the speed of light is impossible? i guess i should ask john titor. oh wait, he's only from 2036. it seems to me like what we think is rational now doesn't appear to be later all the time (eg, later it may be referred to as a superstition). it's not that it suddenly irrational, but that it wasn't rational ENOUGH.

you could pick this apart further and observe that the superstitions regarding the sound barrier and flying machines were inductive conclusions based on many, many experiments. i don't think there was a way to deductively prove that those beliefs were correct. they turned out to be incorrect, so i guess that rules out the possibility of deductively proving they were correct. on the other hand, people as far as i know are making deductive arguments regarding time travel and the speed of light barrier. so perhaps these shouldn't be considered superstitions. on the third hand, deductive arguments are based on premises. so one is forced to accept those before accepting the conclusions, of course. I'm not very inclined to accept einsteins axioms of special relativity at the moment, however. nor am i inclined to reject them. call me an Einstein agnostic. that being the case, i can't be sure if the speed of light can be exceeded. I'm equally up in the air on the time travel issue.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

TL;DR

rhetorical rebuttal of yours

I think believing the world is flat is a superstition don't you? There was no purpose for you to devote a whole paragraph to waxing in my terminology (even if it did sound rational, it was smacking of the juvenile). Could you possibly get your point out more succinctly? Thanks, in forward.

And I said hopefully people know the economic reasons. Obviously you do, so there was no need for you to mention that.

But if you want a source for the Greek and Muslim mathematicians try

Lost Discoveries - The Ancient Roots of Modern Science - from the Babylonians to the Maya

BY DICK TERESI

I think good old John is a fake. I also thing you are postulating to much. This thread is good for kicks but not if people are so mediocre.

One thing I noticed about everyone on this board is you are pseudoscientific babble boxes.

But here's some of 'John's' alleged stuff found on a crack pot web site:

http://www.johntitor.com/JohnsPictures.htm

Take a look at that time machine! Looks like something out of Back to the Future.

With that said, here's a website for you to peruse:

www.skeptic.com/

 

[Embermage]

Technically, since he says that he was born in 1998, wouldn't that mean that he is alive and living somewhere in... Florida... right about now? Now, if he did give us his real name, which I doubt is true, would he be traceable?


Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Actually that "therapist" was me. I was just trying to lure him out into talking so I could verbally corner him, but he wasn't biting. I'd love to have a crack at debunking him, but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

Ya back in one piece Well jumpin jimminey wilikers, I'll try and remember that for zoob's sake!

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

Actually though appearances may decieve, I'm an avid supporter of "valid" alternative theories. It's people such John Titor with too much time on their hands who detract from the valid claims, in much the same way fanatical abortion clinic bombers detract from the pro-life cause. With people like him around, it's no wonder the scientific community won't even contemplate subjects like UFO's due to it's attraction of fanatics.

90 percent of what's out there is bunk. It's the other 10 percent I'm interested in. There's always a little "science" in science fiction.

"when all possibilites have been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.

Oh and I did contact Pamela, and invited her here to discuss JT, but she never responded. Perhaps because I wasn't a "believer"...

 

[kleinma]

I have the ability to travel through time, The possibilities are completely endless... first thing on my to do list.. go to an internet forum and post to people about the ability of time travel without giving them any actual shred of proof, or describe factual events in detail...

come on guys... i mean if you could time travel... is that how you would spend your time in the past??

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I know, he never explained why he came onto the forums very well. I'm a skeptic but a entertaining story he paints. I hope he isn't some psychotic delusional but just some normal headed prankster. That would be funny then. Hopefully one day he comes out and admits it. Of course if I'm wrong, it would suck a lot because I'm happy being a fat lazy slob in a rich capitalist country. Except, I'm not fat.

PS Zantra where did you go? And who is this pamela character?

 

[RickD]

Original Titor Files

Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by RickD
Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

Hi Rick,
First, thanks for posting. Have there been any serious efforts to debunk this guy? For example, I suspect that his time machine GE/C204 is a mobile receiver unit used by the military.