Why Are Some Democrats Pushing for a 200 Page Limit on Textbooks in California?

[TheStatutoryApe]

Maybe Democrats in the state Assembly should just go ahead and write textbooks for California's students. They're so confident they know what constitutes a good one.

For instance, who knew that making a textbook longer than 200 pages was such a bad idea that there needs to be a law against it?

Well, 42 Assembly Democrats knew. On Thursday they approved AB 756, a bill by Jackie Goldberg, D-Los Angeles, that says: Neither the State Board of Education nor a local school district ``may adopt instructional materials that exceed 200 pages in length.''

Textbooks, the bill's supporters argued, should sum up the basics and then refer students to the Internet and to libraries for the rest. Plus, shorter is lighter and cheaper... continued

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/11777621.htm

As if we don't already have a problem with kids not wanting to read.

 

[JamesU]

I hate textbooks. but a 200-page kimit is kind of stupid. our textbooks have about 400+ pages in them. most of the pages provide very useful information. Even though we don't read all of the pages, I'd say about 350 is a good limit.

I know if anyone at my school found out about this post (and if I lived in california) I would be hated by all

 

[Rabid]

That's almost as bad as the Republicans that want to teach creationism.

 

[Grogs]

The textbook publishers are probably drooling over this one. Instead of selling a 600 page physics text for $50, they can sell Physics 1, 2, and 3, each 200 pages long, for $40 each.

And is it just me, or does referring students to the internet for additional learning scare the crap out of everybody. Jonny might come to class the next day with desgins for his new 'free energy' machine and 'absolute' proof the Apollo landings were faked.

That's almost as bad as the Republicans that want to teach creationism.

Apparently ignorance is alive and well on both sides of the aisle.

 

[Joel]

I limit myself to say, WHAT?!

 

[TsunamiJoe]

And is it just me, or does referring students to the internet for additional learning scare the crap out of everybody. Jonny might come to class the next day with desgins for his new 'free energy' machine and 'absolute' proof the Apollo landings were faked.

i don't know about you,but when i do internet research, i stay on official websites and don't wonder google and such places...

 

[Moonbear]

Is that for real?! Well, I guess that's one way to ban biology textbooks when they can't get their fiction taught in the classroom. Even the 1957 Catholic school version of a biology textbook that I have in my possession is over 500 pages long, and that's really biology-light.

They didn't put any restrictions on the other dimensions, did they? I can see it now. Sure, it's only 200 pages long, but it's 4 ft across! :rofl:

Grogs is right, this sounds like something the publishers would beg for...sell every textbook as a 5 or 6 volume set!

And, of course with education budgets already tightened, now they expect schools to go out and waste money buying new books when they already have perfectly good ones just because the current books are over 200 pages? I'd be hard-pressed to find any book in my library that's less than 200 pages!

 

[Moonbear]

i don't know about you,but when i do internet research, i stay on official websites and don't wonder google and such places...

But how does a student assess what is an "official" or reputable website if they haven't yet learned the subject adequately from an approved textbook to know the difference yet?

Actually, there's a solution that publishers will also love. Sell every textbook as only 200 pages, and then bundle all the rest into a CD or DVD. Their profits will skyrocket when they can save on the printing costs! Oh, and sorry if you're too poor to own a computer, you just don't get to learn.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well, I guess that's one way to ban biology textbooks when they can't get their fiction taught in the classroom.

This actually came from the Dems. I think a big reason why I lean a bit right is because of how crazy the lefties here in California are.

But how does a student assess what is an "official" or reputable website if they haven't yet learned the subject adequately from an approved textbook to know the difference yet?

They're supposed to site particular websites I believe but a good point brought up is figuring out how to decern what sites are suitable by California education standards. Also I can just imagine a slip up occurring and a site being referenced that shouldn't have been because it wasn't properly investigated before publishing. Or maybe it was but the site changed it's material.
Oh and imagine all the sites wanting to get put into textbooks for commercial reasons and people wanting to be advertised on the sites referenced for commercial reasons. It'll be the next great step in advertising, they'll get em while in the classroom.

Someone else brought up elsewhere the point that this may become the standard in other states aswell, by default, if all the major textbook publishers gear their production toward the standards here in California.

 

[kat]

Well...regardless of what Cali's motives are, I'd be very glad to see a trend of shorter textbooks. I've actually even discussed this with our local school board. It would be preferable to have textbooks broken into quarterly units or some such thing, still covering the same amount of material. On the other hand, teaching older children to discern between information and disinformation on the internet might be one positive influence of such a move (see how some on this forum have difficulty with this, for instance)
Why would I support shorter textbooks? My number one reason would be Because, having to carry multiple large heavy textbooks home from school night after night is quite literally breaking our childrens backs. A second reason would be that large textbooks are costly and soon become outdated. utilizing smaller textbooks outlining material and giving research instructions, accessing the internet and yes, perhaps a greater use of material on discs would be cheaper then purchasing cases upon cases of large cumbersome and expensive textbooks.

 

[brewnog]

When I did my Physics A-level, we had two textbooks which were probably only 150 pages each. We were also given a CD with MASSES of information on it,- someone printed it off and the stack of paper was about 6 feet high. The CD had a really good search/browse feature, so that you could easily find a great deal about any relevant topic really easily.

 

[FredGarvin]

My number one reason would be Because, having to carry multiple large heavy textbooks home from school night after night is quite literally breaking our childrens backs.

That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard of. How far are parents going to go so that their precious little ones don't even have to lift a finger to do anything? For most kids lugging books to school is probably the only exercise they'll see.

A second reason would be that large textbooks are costly and soon become outdated.

How do they become outdated? Short of a book on current topics, how does an local elementary school math, science or spelling book become outdated? They don't. School districts, like college professors change their minds on what is the fashionable book of the month to use.

 

[Pengwuino]

That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard of. How far are parents going to go so that their precious little ones don't even have to lift a finger to do anything? For most kids lugging books to school is probably the only exercise they'll see.

Soon kids will simply be bringing 4 ZIP disks for each of there 4 subjects!

 

[hypatia]

I was one of those kids that read ahead of my assignment, often finishing the books in several weeks. That would of sucked for me to only have 200 pages.

 

[danAlwyn]

That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard of. How far are parents going to go so that their precious little ones don't even have to lift a finger to do anything? For most kids lugging books to school is probably the only exercise they'll see.

I think it depends on the school. When I was in High School I routinely trudged about a mile and a half to school with a fifty or sixty pound backpack. Now that's not too far (I routinely take six to ten mile walks), but I've since been told that carrying more than thirty percent of your body weight on your back can cause stress. Especially since most backpacks are not well designed to balance out the weight. This may help explain that lower-back problems I'm beginning to develop (I'm 23 now). I'm fairly tall though, a shorter, lighter kid carrying my backpack would probably receive much more damage. In schools like that a lighter textbook might be better, and students would have more incentive to carry them too and from class.

 

[FredGarvin]

There are so many different things that influence lower back problems. Simply supporting your own body weight when you walk is going to induce stress on your body. I could understand it if the size of the books in comparisson to the kids was way out of balance, like a 20 pound book for a 50 pound little girl, but kids that will have a large textbook like this are not going to be that small.

If there is a move to put more textbooks in digital form, I'm all for it to save the paper. Just don't use the tired old "it's for the kids" routine.

 

[1123581321]

as if the school system hasn't dumbed down everything else...

Fibonacci

 

[Art]

The textbook publishers are probably drooling over this one. Instead of selling a 600 page physics text for $50, they can sell Physics 1, 2, and 3, each 200 pages long, for $40 each.
[\QUOTE]

Be cheaper to leave the books as they are and buy 2 sets, one for home and leve one at school. Then everybody is happy

 

[kat]

That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard of. How far are parents going to go so that their precious little ones don't even have to lift a finger to do anything? For most kids lugging books to school is probably the only exercise they'll see.

Riiight..

http://www.promoteot.org/AI_BackpackFlap.html

More than 7,000 emergency room visits in 2001 were related to backpacks and book bags. Approximately half of those injuries occurred in children 5 to 14 years old.

Three out of 10 students typically carry backpacks weighing up to one third of their body weight at least once a week...
In one study with American students, 6 out of 10 students ages 9 to 20 reported chronic back pain related to heavy backpacks. Among students who carried backpacks weighing 15% of their body weight or less, only 2 in 10 reported pain.

My 13 year old often has homework in 4 subjects, carrying home the textbooks along with research materials makes for a very heavy backpack. In fact I'm no weakling and I find it to be at least as heavy as th 40 to 50lb grain sacks I've carried for our animals.
I guess our region is different then that of the city or perhaps it's just the kids I'm familiar with but..they get plenty of excercise with their overwhelmingly busy schedule of sports and dance and quite frankly... carrying an overweight back pack isn't the best way for children to get their excercise and suggesting it should be considered as such is just..plain ignorant.

How do they become outdated? Short of a book on current topics, how does an local elementary school math, science or spelling book become outdated? They don't. School districts, like college professors change their minds on what is the fashionable book of the month to use.

Yes, well in part I have to agree with you...since I've been in this school district I've seen a minimum of 4 different reading programs accessed. Each requiring a different set of texts. 3 different mathematical programs...each requiring it's own set of texts. Although this has nothing to do with "fashionable" it has more to do with incentives offered by the companies sponsering the new program which makes it less expensive to switch to a new program instead of replacing the worn out textbooks of the current program.
However, science, social studies as well as reading material does change and does become outdated..along with, as mentioned above, worn out. I believe most spelling books are paper back, fairly thin and already developed to be used in sequence so I really am not referring to spelling books at any rate.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well...regardless of what Cali's motives are, I'd be very glad to see a trend of shorter textbooks. I've actually even discussed this with our local school board. It would be preferable to have textbooks broken into quarterly units or some such thing, still covering the same amount of material. On the other hand, teaching older children to discern between information and disinformation on the internet might be one positive influence of such a move (see how some on this forum have difficulty with this, for instance)
Why would I support shorter textbooks? My number one reason would be Because, having to carry multiple large heavy textbooks home from school night after night is quite literally breaking our childrens backs. A second reason would be that large textbooks are costly and soon become outdated. utilizing smaller textbooks outlining material and giving research instructions, accessing the internet and yes, perhaps a greater use of material on discs would be cheaper then purchasing cases upon cases of large cumbersome and expensive textbooks.

As far as motives go we have some pretty piss poor schools here in California. You may or may not have heard that the governator has "cut school spending". It's not quite accurate. They tend to fail to mention that it was the increase that was cut, cut down to a measily three billion dollar increase. The real problem is that the money is mismanaged.
So the thrust here is they have intimated it would cost less yet they have no estimates on what it will cost. As already pointed out it is not likely that it will cost any less and it may wind up costing more. I seriously doubt that the publishing companies are going to be very happy about losing money on this. Another indirect cost would possibly come in the form of internet access. As I already stated there are many piss poor schools here so what happens to the kids who have little to no access to the internet? If the schools adopt this they will be forced to be sure to have adequate internet access when they are already hurting because the teachers themselves are underpaid. Or else they will simply be forced to purchase these new books but the students will be hurting because they don't yet have adequate internet access for their use.

As far as the health issue goes I'd have to say that there must be a better solution. And by the way yes here in California kids aren't very physically active. At any rate as far as I can see it putting this cap on page counts will likely result in a loss of quality and content of the educational material. Personally I don't think this is a proper compromise to ease the health issue.

More or less I would say that updating materials and getting rid of extraneous material is probably a good idea but this particular way of approaching it seems rather misguided.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'd settle for one page if only it was a good one. My kids' textbooks are a mess.

 

[Pengwuino]

As far as motives go we have some pretty piss poor schools here in California. You may or may not have heard that the governator has "cut school spending". It's not quite accurate. They tend to fail to mention that it was the increase that was cut, cut down to a measily three billion dollar increase. The real problem is that the money is mismanaged.

Wooo you want to talk about mismanaged? Here in Fresno... they were complaining and complaining about ohhh the studenst don't have enough textbooks and the funding to schools is too little and our classes are overcrowded. This roughly coincided with the opening of a new education building about 5 stories high and half a city block that probably created a couple hundred more "administrative" jobs and i certainly don't remember more then... maybe 2 new elementary schools being built in the last decade.

 

[FredGarvin]

My 13 year old often has homework in 4 subjects, carrying home the textbooks along with research materials makes for a very heavy backpack. In fact I'm no weakling and I find it to be at least as heavy as th 40 to 50lb grain sacks I've carried for our animals.
I guess our region is different then that of the city or perhaps it's just the kids I'm familiar with but..they get plenty of excercise with their overwhelmingly busy schedule of sports and dance and quite frankly... carrying an overweight back pack isn't the best way for children to get their excercise and suggesting it should be considered as such is just..plain ignorant.

What's ignorant is not trying to fix the real problem. 3500 out of 40 million. Oh my! That is a huge percentage. I guess the next step is a little robot butler to walk with the kids. It can carry all of their books, their musical instrument (which I had as well) and wipe their butt too. If the backpack is the root of all evil, then do something about the backpack, not the books. You forgot these little tid-bits from your source:

- The way backpacks are worn has an impact. Lower positioning of the backpack approximates the body's center of gravity and has the least effect on posture.

In a study on the effect of backpack education on student behavior and health, nearly 8 out of 10 middle-school students who changed how they loaded and wore their backpacks reported less pain and strain in their backs, necks, and shoulders.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

Oh, and sorry if you're too poor to own a computer, you just don't get to learn.

lol that's hilarious...

but anyway though a lot of people don't have internet access, most school libraries do, and if not, public libraries do, and if not, this is more incentive to resituate budgeting issues...


also generaly, if its not from a government agency i don't use it...also things like the CIA world factbook, is huge with information on a whole lot of everything...

 

[kat]

All of our 7th and 8th graders have laptops here in Maine and by the time the present day 8th graders reach their senior year in high school every child from 7th grade on will have laptops. Each laptop also has wireless access. Phasing out of textbooks and into discs and internet usage only makes sense.

 

[kat]

What's ignorant is not trying to fix the real problem. 3500 out of 40 million. Oh my! That is a huge percentage.

Of..emergency room incidents..not injuries, so yes it is fairly impacting.

I guess the next step is a little robot butler to walk with the kids. It can carry all of their books, their musical instrument (which I had as well) and wipe their butt too.

Riiight...Try getting a bit more vitamin B, it does wonders for your attitued.

If the backpack is the root of all evil, then do something about the backpack, not the books.

Well, once your done marketing your robot to the schools to carry books and wipe butts the backpacks and the texts will no longer be an issue, right?

You forgot these little tid-bits from your source:

Mmmm no, I didn't. I find phrases like: "the least effect" and "reported less" to be fairly useless without something to identify what "least" and "less" actually amount to.

 

[rachmaninoff]

What about college students? One of my three organic chem. texts is 1300+ pages and weighs 4.5lb (~2.0 kg). My Serway from 101 physics is around 1600 pages and weighs over 7 lb (3.2kg). You can weigh these things with bathroom scales! I'm lucky since I study on the same floor of the same building where all my classes meet; some kids have backpacks so heavy that they drive their books ~100m distances to avoid carrying them (that's why they need SUVs! ). The two I've mentioned are single volumes which last for a whole year - no serialization or anything. I don't understand why first-year textbooks are so much clunkier the thin lightweights we use at the 300+ level. Do freshman really need a kilo of pages devoted to color-coded review material, as in my organic chem.?

 

[franznietzsche]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/11777621.htm

As if we don't already have a problem with kids not wanting to read.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, the State Legislature in california is the single worst legislative body in the world. These are the people that tried to tax soda to pay for programs to tell people not to drink it. And Democrats like to boast about how they don't try to tell people how to live their lives. Bull****.

This is just great. The excellent calculus text my high school used? Illegal. All the International Baccalaureate texts? Illegal.

I really hate those people.

 

[franznietzsche]

Is that for real?! Well, I guess that's one way to ban biology textbooks when they can't get their fiction taught in the classroom. Even the 1957 Catholic school version of a biology textbook that I have in my possession is over 500 pages long, and that's really biology-light.

This is in California Moonbear, not the issue.

They didn't put any restrictions on the other dimensions, did they? I can see it now. Sure, it's only 200 pages long, but it's 4 ft across! :rofl:

Grogs is right, this sounds like something the publishers would beg for...sell every textbook as a 5 or 6 volume set!

That's most likely what it comes down to. These legislators honestly don't give a rat's ass about their constituents. They do more on a daily basis for citizens of Mexico still living in Mexico than they do for us.

And, of course with education budgets already tightened, now they expect schools to go out and waste money buying new books when they already have perfectly good ones just because the current books are over 200 pages? I'd be hard-pressed to find any book in my library that's less than 200 pages!

But they don't care. They never have and never will.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

They aren't actually illegalizing the current textbooks only making it illegal for them to purchase more of these textbooks. Not a whole better ofcourse, at least not in my opinion.

 

[chound]

I thought only we students in India had to battle with problem of heavy books but it feels great to know that u too have the same problem.

 

[chound]

I finished reading the whole thread and it seems to me that Indian education system is far better than urs and I had been complaining earlier that US kids have a lot of free time and a lot less to study!

 

[Kakarot]

reading sucks that's why i watch the discovery channel. by now i must be an expert motorcycle mechanic and i can spot weld like a pro!

 

[faust9]

Textbook manufacturers are out of control IMHO. Here's a prime example from my own bookshelf:

Mechanics by Hibbler---An awful text if you ask me. The most recent edition of statics and mechanics combined edition runs for $150.00 and is over 1200 pages long.


A much better text called Mechanics by J.P. Den Hartog is 450 pages (dover will custom print these as well) and sells for $10.00.


The information presented in the Hartog text mirrors much of the information presented in the Hibbler text but at 1/15th the cost and 4lbs lighter...

This can be seen in any physics text or mathematics text as well. Spread a savings like that($120 physics text vs a $15 one with the same info just fewer glossy pages and fewer pictures) across a thousand studens:
That's a whopping $100,000 savings!

Modern texts have not gotten better as the cost of said texts have skyrocketed! The theory that more pictures makes a better student is wrong.

I say good for California for addressing this issue. By demanding shorter texts California can now leverage the cost of a Dover textbook as a means to reduce the cost of a similar text from Pearson.

Another benefit of this strategy might be to inspire smaller printing houses to produces these shorter texts => more competition => overall costs come down. Another benefit would be a possible improvement in the information presented to the students. There are quite a few studies that show a certain south/central state's dominance over information presented in modern textbooks. Many textbook manufacturers tailor their text offerings to meet the "moral and ideological' needs of this one state to the detrement of the information presented. California is the largest book buyer at the moment but the spread of watered down information to meet the requirements of the second largest bookbuyer cannot be missed or denied.

Kudos Cali. I hope this idea spreads and brings competition back into the relm of textbooks.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

in my physics class, we never even opened our books once...literaly

so in my opinion textbooks are irrelevant to a good instructor