3 dimensions of space and 1 of time

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The discussion revolves around the conceptualization of spacetime, questioning the traditional view of it as "3 dimensions of space and 1 of time." Participants argue that this separation may stem from human limitations in controlling time and space rather than a fundamental aspect of spacetime itself. They explore alternative representations like "2+2" or "4" dimensions, suggesting that our inability to travel backward in time is a projection of our limitations. The conversation also touches on the implications of velocity and the speed of light as theoretical constraints, with references to various scientific theories and experiments. Ultimately, the dialogue highlights the complexity of spacetime and the ongoing debate about its true nature.
  • #121


DaleSpam said:
The fqxi is not a peer-reviewed source, it is an essay contest. Your continuing along this line is inappropriate, you have agreed to the rules and are deliberately ignoring them despite having been warned.

Btw, you did not adress the substance of my rebuttal. All of the words in bold already imply time. Your statement was nonsense (regardless of who you are imitating) without time.

Julian Barbour has a bunch of peer-reviewed articles, (for instance http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v249/n5455/pdf/249328a0.pdf published in Nature 249, 328 (1974), and http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0012089 published in Class.Quant.Grav. 19 (2002)). What is your point? You decided I was spouting some pet theory and when that turned out not to be true I "hijacked" the thread?

People were arguing over whether GR was 3+1 dimensional or 2+2, and as far as I can tell I'm the only one citing peer-reviewed articles that attempt to suggest one thing or the other right now.
 
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  • #122


You are indeed now citing peer-reviewed sources, but they don't support your position. The first manuscript appears to be a reformulation of Newtonian mechanics and the second manuscript is explicitly and deliberately just another derivation of relativity and makes no new experimental predictions.

You still have not responded to the substance of my original rebuttal.
 
  • #123


DaleSpam said:
Philosophers can write reams of elegant prose and carefully disguise the tired old recycled arguments, and not a word of it changes the fact that theories that use time accurately predict the results of experiment. That is all that is expected of any scientific theory.

You may not realize it, but your and ia_'s anti-time ramblings are a dime a dozen here (sometimes on days like today we get two for the price of one). I have offered the same challenge to each that I now offer to you:

If time does not exist then show me a time-free theory of physics that both accurately predicts the results of experiments done to date and also suggests new experiments which have not yet been performed which could distinguish it experimentally from time-based theories. Until such a theory has been developed and experimentally validated it would appear that nature disagrees with your musings.

I have no doubt that you will fail to answer this challenge as have all of your predecessors.

I'm not being "anti-time." Time, just like any other dimension, is a useful conceptual instrument for perceiving, theorizing, predicting, and planning events. All I am saying about these dimensions is that they exist as concepts and do not exist physically outside of science and cognition.

Your third paragraph makes the same dime-a-dozen logical mistake that others make when trying to equate explanatory power with existence as a physical reality. Just because something works well inside your head doesn't make it exist outside of your head.

As for doing physics without time; at the level of qualitative description of physical matter-energy events it actually clarifies to part with the concept of time. I have read people treat time as a force that propels matter-energy dynamics. That is confounding because it implies that somehow those dynamics can be influenced by controlling time.

Events do not happen because time is moving. They happen because of the internal dynamics of the event. In fact, time and space as abstractions actually detract from sufficient understanding of the microdynamics of events by generalizing them within a larger, abstract framework. This is why historical accounts almost always treat co-temporality as quasi-causation, as if simply the fact that two things happened around the same time necessitates a causal relationship, or any relationship at all for that matter.

Time is conceptually possible because cognition allows us to remember and/or record multiple states of an object and compare them. Time always involves counting one regular event and defining another measurable event as a ratio in comparison with it.

The more things that are measured in relation to the same clock-event, or the more clocks that are synchronized, the easier it is to make the leap to believing that time is something that exists as an external generality for all things. In fact, it is just a method for comparison of distinct measurable events.
 
  • #124


DaleSpam said:
You are indeed now citing peer-reviewed sources, but they don't support your position. The first manuscript appears to be a reformulation of Newtonian mechanics and the second manuscript is explicitly and deliberately just another derivation of relativity and makes no new experimental predictions.

You misunderstood my position from the beginning. Where did I claim to make new predictions? Nowhere. Where did I propose a theory? Again nowhere. My initial post attempted to suggest what several of the fxqi essays, as well as a few of the papers by Barbour state. The whole point was that KNOWN theories can be rewritten relationally, without explicitly needing time.

I never proposed a theory, and you're now criticizing me for not proposing a theory. Let's get back on topic?
 
  • #125


ia_ said:
Julian Barbour has a bunch of peer-reviewed articles, (for instance http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v249/n5455/pdf/249328a0.pdf published in Nature 249, 328 (1974), and http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0012089 published in Class.Quant.Grav. 19 (2002)). What is your point? You decided I was spouting some pet theory and when that turned out not to be true I "hijacked" the thread?

People were arguing over whether GR was 3+1 dimensional or 2+2, and as far as I can tell I'm the only one citing peer-reviewed articles that attempt to suggest one thing or the other right now.

So in Newtonian mechanics time can be "eliminated" in "configuration space" - what is the dimensionality of configuration space (please consider at least two "particles", since we need a clock for one of them)?
 
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  • #126


atyy said:
Yes, those came to mind when I saw your earlier post, but I wasn't sure, because it seemed quite different. I'm not sure that Rovelli or Barbour would agree, but I think it's not so much that time doesn't exist, rather that in Newtonian and special relativistic mechanics, it is possible to define time such that "motion looks simple". This is the view advanced in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's "Gravitation", p23 and in Stephani's http://books.google.com/books?id=WAW-4nd-OeIC&dq=stephani+hans+relativity&source=gbs_navlinks_s, p5.

Unfortunately page 5 isn't included in google's preview, but I think I see the idea from pg 6. MTW also has a preview.

It seems like Stephani and Barbour are beginning with essentially the same process and using it in opposite ways. Stephani shows that the form of Newton's eq changes if the time variable is taken to instead be some function T=f(t), and that therefore defining it in a way that's as simple as possible in inertial reference frames is most useful. Barbour essentially decides to try eliminating it completely by writing the euler-lagrange equations as purely relational.

Whether this implies that time exists or not, well, it still behaves in a way that's equivalent to time existing.
 
  • #127


You cited an essay contest...

Citing a peer reviewed article means the ARTICLE has been reviewed, not the author. Well, both in practice, but doesn't it occur to you that even a well respected physicist might express views in an ESSAY CONTEST he wouldn't in a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL?! I don't see how this is a difficult concept, as it is basic to citation.

As for MTW, I have my copy here, and reading through the relevant portion they are talking about how NEWTON formulated time versus an archaic metric such as "The Day". It is a very practical discussion and by no means does it consider a timeless universe.
 
  • #128


Frame Dragger said:
You cited an essay contest...

Citing a peer reviewed article means the ARTICLE has been reviewed, not the author. Well, both in practice, but doesn't it occur to you that even a well respected physicist might express views in an ESSAY CONTEST he wouldn't in a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL?! I don't see how this is a difficult concept, as it is basic to citation.

As for MTW, I have my copy here, and reading through the relevant portion they are talking about how NEWTON formulated time versus an archaic metric such as "The Day". It is a very practical discussion and by no means does it consider a timeless universe.

Hmmm, is MTW peer reviewed? :-p
 
  • #129


ia_ said:
The whole point was that KNOWN theories can be rewritten relationally, without explicitly needing time.
That in no way implies that "time (although a useful convention) doesn't exist" any more than the Lagrangian formulation of classical mechanics implies that force doesn't exist.

ia_ said:
Lets get back on topic?
I would be glad to get back on topic. You still have not addressed my original rebuttal that your statement I first quoted is nonsense without the concept of time implicit in the highlighted words. I think this is the fourth time that you have ducked the issue.
 
  • #130


Frame Dragger said:
You cited an essay contest...

Citing a peer reviewed article means the ARTICLE has been reviewed, not the author. Well, both in practice, but doesn't it occur to you that even a well respected physicist might express views in an ESSAY CONTEST he wouldn't in a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL?! I don't see how this is a difficult concept, as it is basic to citation.

As for MTW, I have my copy here, and reading through the relevant portion they are talking about how NEWTON formulated time versus an archaic metric such as "The Day". It is a very practical discussion and by no means does it consider a timeless universe.

We're discusing MTW and the relativity book by Stephani in relation to the peer reviewed Nature article linked above. I'm just going to reply to Dale's post too. Semantics is not physics. Are you criticizing me because the English language wasn't designed to be purely relational? Come on.
 
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  • #131


atyy said:
Hmmm, is MTW peer reviewed? :-p

I think it's pretty much ad hoc really. Just three old fellows with some nutty ideas decided to write a 2000+ page telenovella that only people with at least some tensor calculus can understand. Why, is it meant to be something more? :wink:

@ia: Then you're citing articles which do not support your view, and a book with a page in the early portions (before the math EXPLAINS it) talking about how Newton formulated time, and then goes on to describe the realtive accuracy of some types of clocks. Based on THAT... we're back to you making a lone, unsupported statement, which DaleSpam warned you about.
 
  • #132


Frame Dragger said:
You cited an essay contest...

Citing a peer reviewed article means the ARTICLE has been reviewed, not the author. Well, both in practice, but doesn't it occur to you that even a well respected physicist might express views in an ESSAY CONTEST he wouldn't in a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL?! I don't see how this is a difficult concept, as it is basic to citation.

As for MTW, I have my copy here, and reading through the relevant portion they are talking about how NEWTON formulated time versus an archaic metric such as "The Day". It is a very practical discussion and by no means does it consider a timeless universe.

The reason for citation of sources is for readers to evaluate for themselves the source of the information.

If you want to make a distinction between peer-reviewed journals and essay contests, you should either CITE a source that explains and makes meaningful the distinction, or explain it yourself.

Be careful not to black-box the status distinction between peer-reviewed journals and other sources. Too often people simply trust the peer-reviewers because of the fact that the journal was peer-reviewed. In fact, all sources should ultimately be evaluated according to your own knowledge and authority. Without doing that, there's a good chance you're just going along with a trend of accepting certain information or knowledge on the basis that it is commonly validated by individuals with some status-recogntion.
 
  • #133


Frame Dragger said:
I think it's pretty much ad hoc really. Just three old fellows with some nutty ideas decided to write a 2000+ page telenovella that only people with at least some tensor calculus can understand. Why, is it meant to be something more? :wink:

Old fellows? Thorne was 30 when he wrote it!
 
  • #134


brainstorm said:
The reason for citation of sources is for readers to evaluate for themselves the source of the information.

If you want to make a distinction between peer-reviewed journals and essay contests, you should either CITE a source that explains and makes meaningful the distinction, or explain it yourself.

Be careful not to black-box the status distinction between peer-reviewed journals and other sources. Too often people simply trust the peer-reviewers because of the fact that the journal was peer-reviewed. In fact, all sources should ultimately be evaluated according to your own knowledge and authority. Without doing that, there's a good chance you're just going along with a trend of accepting certain information or knowledge on the basis that it is commonly validated by individuals with some status-recogntion.

There is too much information out there for anyone with a job and a life to NOT depend on peer-review, not to mention that I don't automatically trust a reviewed paper. I automatically DISTRUST ones that are not submitted, although I'm happy to read them given the time.

I come from a field in which everything MUST be peer-reviewed or people don't get well, become sicker, and/or die. Did that stop The Lancet from setting off a panic about vaccinations and a posssible link with ASDs? No, so clearly healthy skepticism is warrented. That said, do you have any idea how much material is produced in a given sub-field of a field in a science? Hint: More than you could "ultimately [evaluate] according to your own knowlede and authority".

Furthermore, the notion expressed in the sentence I quoted is utterly contrary to the scientific method, not just modern practice. Naturally you use your mind, and tune it as best you can for the occasion, but if you're "The Authority" even very very bright folks run into terrible trouble. It is through constant review by as many people as possible (peer-review, say JAMA, establishes a standard which its readers ALSO DEMAND) including the readers of peer-reviewed work that allows for mistakes by even such august insitutions as The Lancet to retract an error, and admit their folly.

Finally, if Kip Thorne wrote a piece of Popular Science... I wouldn't cite it. Is he the real deal? Sure! What would I do?... find a proper citation. If you disagree with the entire notion of citation, you're going to be MISERABLE here, and in science, medicine, debate, politics, law...

...Because ideally you're right, but as none of us live forever we have to choose what to read.

EDIT: @atyy: I was joking all the way around! Anyway, for the record I consider "Old" to be a function of a generation+region, and I don't think 30 has been old since... when was flint-napping the "in" thing to do? :wink:
EDIT2: 30... You know, that's the kind of thing that can make a guy feel deeply unaccomplished despite relative success in his field! 'Gravitation' by age 30... Amazing... granted he had help, and that is CLEARLY cheating! :smile:
 
  • #135


Frame Dragger said:
EDIT: @atyy: I was joking all the way around!

Me too :smile:
 
  • #136


atyy said:
Me too :smile:

Got me! :-p
 
  • #137


ia_ said:
Semantics is not physics. Are you criticizing me because the English language wasn't designed to be purely relational?
A semantic argument is one in which the disagreement stems from different definitions of the same word. Do you think that I have a different definition of the word "moves" than you do? If so, I am willing to stipulate to your definition for the purposes of this thread in order to avoid a semantic argument. I certainly didn't think that we had different definitions for "occurs when", "moves", or "clockwise".

EDIT: I have thought about this a bit more and realized that the issue I raised cannot be dismissed as simply a limitation of the English language, nor as a non-physics criticism. Here are the abbreviated physics definitions of the terms in question:
"occurs when" t_A=t_B
"moves" \frac{dx}{dt} \ne 0
"clockwise" \frac{d\theta}{dt}<0
Let me know if you disagree with any of those, but note that time shows up in all of them.
 
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  • #138


I've just had time to really read all of these new posts. I have to say, it feels like this thread has entered a dark, damp thicket. Since my last meaningful post, there have been over 3-pages of arguments.

The argument between dx and Altabeh didn't bother me because it's more proof that the question about whether gravity is a force or not is more of an issue than people realize. I think it's important to resolve this.

I wasn't happy with how things turned out regarding ia_'s initial post. ia_ probably could've presented it better, but I also think that people were too quick to be harsh on him. I think things with him could've been resolved much sooner (possibly as much as 2-pages sooner), and without enraging emotions, if it had been responded to differently.

Frame Dragger said:
I just want to know how he thinks matter exists in a timeless universe.
Let's re-read part of the initial post by ia_:

"I'm going to say that space is 3 dimensional, and time (although a useful convention) doesn't exist, because you can always substitute it out of your equations for any experiment by including your timekeeping device."

The part in bold makes it evident to me that he's not implying a timeless universe. He's just saying that, instead of in our equations, we keep track of time on our wrist. I don't know how much sense that makes, but it seems to me he's not saying matter exists without time.

Because of how ia_ was responded to, brainstorm came to the rescue. brainstorm is definitely a philosopher at heart. I respect that and his kind of philosophy has an important place in the world. Unfortunately, this thread is not as philosophical as he thinks. If it is, it's a different kind of philosophy. It's possible that brainstorm jumped in without actually reading the entire thread. An easy mistake.
brainstorm said:
Events do not happen because time is moving. They happen because of the internal dynamics of the event.
I like the above quote, thanks for sharing it!

I hope to get things back on track with my next post, which should be sometime tomorrow.
 
  • #139


Frame Dragger said:
There is too much information out there for anyone with a job and a life to NOT depend on peer-review, not to mention that I don't automatically trust a reviewed paper. I automatically DISTRUST ones that are not submitted, although I'm happy to read them given the time.
I guess I am quite privileged in that I received very critical literature training where we were encouraged to study popular texts and analyze and critique the information and claims-making in them. Once you have done this, it changes the way you look at peer-reviewed texts because you can see how many of the rhetorical and logical shortcomings of non-reviewed literature actually appears in reviewed lit as well. Then your mouth drops open realizing that readers of peer-reviewed lit, perhaps only some, are accepting information uncritically because of the status they attribute to the publication and peer-review generally.

Generally, a rigorous approach to reading critically should entail treating citations and peer-review as additional information applied to evaluation of the text. In that sense, peer-review and source-citation are added values to the extent that they make it easier to see how the writer came up with certain ideas or information and why they might say (or get away with saying) certain things and not others, i.e. because of review by certain peers and not others for example.

What people shouldn't do, which I have dealt with many times, is shoot into defense of the validity of a text or piece of information/knowledge based on no reason except reference to the quality/status of the source/writer/etc. The very fact that something is peer-reviewed doesn't make it more valid. It just means that the particular individuals who reviewed it allowed it to pass as publishable. It's not like editors publish the reasons why reviewers recommended a particular piece for publication.

The idea is that if it is bad it would get filtered out, but no one ever asks what passes for bad and good to whom, and for what reasons.

I come from a field in which everything MUST be peer-reviewed or people don't get well, become sicker, and/or die. Did that stop The Lancet from setting off a panic about vaccinations and a posssible link with ASDs? No, so clearly healthy skepticism is warrented. That said, do you have any idea how much material is produced in a given sub-field of a field in a science? Hint: More than you could "ultimately [evaluate] according to your own knowlede and authority".
More than anything, critical analytical reading is about treating texts as archeological artifacts. It's like digging up a pot and asking how the pot could have been made, what materials were used, etc. You may not be able to evaluate every aspect of the research behind a publication just based on the publication, but from the language used by the writer you can get a good idea of how they think and what the shortcomings and strengths of their research are.

You never accept information except tentatively and critically, and that is why source-citation and explicit reasoning are valuable aspects of a publication. I.e. they make your criticism and reliance on tentative truth easier to process. Ultimately the responsibility will be yours if you act on information in a text, whether it is peer-reviewed or not. You are right that more heads are better than less when it comes to subjecting information to (multiple) authorities. However, you should also pay attention to the fact that sometimes people become less critical in a peer-authority situation out of social politics, i.e. they don't want to deviate from norms and expectations of their peers. Likewise, just as in non-scientific culture, people sometimes resort to blatantly attacking some texts or people to inflate the status of the texts and people they accept as legitimate. People just do this because it's less risky than sticking your neck out to exercise truly independent judgement, which would be more rigorous but more likely to put you in conflict with peer-authority.

Furthermore, the notion expressed in the sentence I quoted is utterly contrary to the scientific method, not just modern practice. Naturally you use your mind, and tune it as best you can for the occasion, but if you're "The Authority" even very very bright folks run into terrible trouble. It is through constant review by as many people as possible (peer-review, say JAMA, establishes a standard which its readers ALSO DEMAND) including the readers of peer-reviewed work that allows for mistakes by even such august insitutions as The Lancet to retract an error, and admit their folly.
This is a hard concept, I think, for many people due to the way authority was treated in their academic training. No one is ever "The Authority," in the sense of being the decisive authority on anything in democratic science. Authoritarian science is a different matter, but imo science is never supposed to be authoritarian or autocratic - in fact, "authoritarian science" is an oxymoron imo.

The whole great thing about science is that it emerged as the technique of checking knowledge through empiricism, testing, and experimentation. The complement of this empirical criticism is the critique that takes place at the level of theory and methodology. Ultimately, when you accept some piece of information or knowledge, you do so tentatively with the acceptance that it could later turn out to be wrong. So when you accept someone else's authority, you do so based on your own authority. You can't blame the peer-reviewers or the author for what you do with their text. You can only blame them for being wrong.

Finally, if Kip Thorne wrote a piece of Popular Science... I wouldn't cite it. Is he the real deal? Sure! What would I do?... find a proper citation. If you disagree with the entire notion of citation, you're going to be MISERABLE here, and in science, medicine, debate, politics, law...
If you read it and it informs your thinking you SHOULD cite it and explain how it influenced your thinking and how you were critical of it. If you were reading someone else's paper and they had read something in Popular Science that informed their thinking, wouldn't you want to know how? The problem is that many people will automatically reject a writer/text where pop.sci is cited at all, which puts writers in the position of hiding their influences. This whole situation makes for bad science and it would all be resolved if readers could grow up and move beyond accepting or rejecting texts/writers based on status cues and simply take literature at face value and subject it to their own critical reasoning and authority in whatever form it takes.

...Because ideally you're right, but as none of us live forever we have to choose what to read.
That's a bad reason to choose what you read. A better reason would be to select literature based on your interest and a certain estimate of utility. Learn to read selectively and critically to evaluate whether a particular text is useful to the goal you are pursuing in the current project. Know what you're reading for before you begin your literature search.
 
  • #140


brainstorm said:
I guess I am quite privileged in that I received very critical literature training where we were encouraged to study popular texts and analyze and critique the information and claims-making in them.

... The intimation being that I, or others here did not? :smile: No... you see, I think you don't have a grasp of the amount of material in any given field that MUST be read, and then CAN be read. Unless your training included forming a hive-mind to share the reading with, you're absolutely blowing smoke right now.

I am not concerned with rhetoric when I read a peer-reviewed piece, because I am not an editor, and I'm interested in the CONTENT. In fact, for some of the reasons you mention (all great thinkers don't make good authors...) it can be quite pleasant to have peer reviewed journals to skim for the relevant information.

After all, I'm concerned with saaaay... the pharmacokinetics of a drug as described by a given study, not how the authors feel about the damned thing.

Does this mean I eschew reading anything save JAMA or JAPA, or etc... etc...? No, and it would be silly to conclude anything else, because we're not talking about reading, or research, but how to CITE. That is a debate you can have until you run out of words, breath, and keystrokes, but the reality of academia and science is unchanged. Feel free to turn your considerable education towards finding a solution to the issues which lead to unfair rejection of studies and theories, I can't think of many who would do anything but thank you.

As for the rest, I didn't (nor do I believe that many here) needed a crash-course in Skepticism, but thank you nonetheless. As for the issue I raised regarding The Lancet, I would blame the study authors, as it is fairly clear that at least one defrauded the Reviewers. This raises the question: Given the bulk of information, are we more likely to find diamonds in the rough by combing through everything, or are we likely to miss more common advances because we've decided that "standard" are an uncontrollable slippery slope?

Dont' take this the wrong way brainstorm, but please, take it to the Philosophy section, because you're not talking about physics, or even science. You're interesting, and intelligent, and someone I could see debating, but not about SR/GR on this thread. If you make a thread about Authoritarian vs. Authority vs. Appeal to Authority I'm in, but let's have it where we're not simply throwing Hoku's point about the degeneration of this thread back in her face. After all, one thing we both DID agree on, would be the rules of the forum, and I think we both know we're stretching them a little thin right now.
 
  • #141


Frame Dragger said:
... The intimation being that I, or others here did not? :smile: No... you see, I think you don't have a grasp of the amount of material in any given field that MUST be read, and then CAN be read. Unless your training included forming a hive-mind to share the reading with, you're absolutely blowing smoke right now.
Again you're substituting the status of "becoming an expert" with the focussed task of formulating a research question and seeking related literature. These are actually completely separate tasks, even though most people with a vested stake in their academic position prefer to believe that research is not possible without status and vice versa.

I am not concerned with rhetoric when I read a peer-reviewed piece, because I am not an editor, and I'm interested in the CONTENT. In fact, for some of the reasons you mention (all great thinkers don't make good authors...) it can be quite pleasant to have peer reviewed journals to skim for the relevant information.
I'm not sure what you mean by content versus rhetoric here. Granted there are too many academic articles that fill pages with empty rhetoric because you can't publish a 3-page paper. Beyond that, though, the writing of the article should give you some clue as to how and why the research was conducted and what the theoretical underpinnings are. If you have no sense of how theoretical foundations and assumptions shape methodology, data, and conclusions, you are missing a lot.

After all, I'm concerned with saaaay... the pharmacokinetics of a drug as described by a given study, not how the authors feel about the damned thing.
But you should be concerned about the theoretical and methodological leanings and how they affect data-collection and conclusions.

As for the rest, I didn't (nor do I believe that many here) needed a crash-course in Skepticism, but thank you nonetheless. As for the issue I raised regarding The Lancet, I would blame the study authors, as it is fairly clear that at least one defrauded the Reviewers. This raises the question: Given the bulk of information, are we more likely to find diamonds in the rough by combing through everything, or are we likely to miss more common advances because we've decided that "standard" are an uncontrollable slippery slope?
I think you've got it backwards. Anyone who doesn't read and evaluate texts and research on a case-by-case basis is doing substandard work and are themselves "rough" among the diamonds.

Dont' take this the wrong way brainstorm, but please, take it to the Philosophy section, because you're not talking about physics, or even science. You're interesting, and intelligent, and someone I could see debating, but not about SR/GR on this thread. If you make a thread about Authoritarian vs. Authority vs. Appeal to Authority I'm in, but let's have it where we're not simply throwing Hoku's point about the degeneration of this thread back in her face. After all, one thing we both DID agree on, would be the rules of the forum, and I think we both know we're stretching them a little thin right now.
I was thinking the same thing about your post. The fact is that you were the one who started talking about citation issues. Rather than tell you to take your discussion to some other forum section, I found it important to address your post directly in the context of its posting to intervene in what would otherwise be a unilateral authority-assertion by you.

Maybe in the future you should stick with the topic of the thread and if you want to talk about discursive issues, link to another thread you start in another forum section.
 
  • #142


Ok, NOW the thread has been hijacked. Did either of you really read my last post? Please let your differences go and move on. Resolution between you is not needed - and apparently not possible. Live and let live or argue it out in the philosophy section. Any further posts along this line will be reported. Let's get this thread back on track, please.
 
  • #143


Hi Hoku, unfortunately at this point there is no other track for the thread to get back to. Your questions have either been resolved or defered so now only the hijack topics are active.

When you come back with more questions, which I hope you do, I would recommend starting another thread.
 
  • #144


Hoku said:
Ok, NOW the thread has been hijacked. Did either of you really read my last post? Please let your differences go and move on. Resolution between you is not needed - and apparently not possible. Live and let live or argue it out in the philosophy section. Any further posts along this line will be reported. Let's get this thread back on track, please.

Hoku, what do you think of dx's arguments and mine? I definitely look at gravity as a fundamental force though this can't be understood directly from GR (whatever way one sees it; Lagrangian method or the usual tensor method) if excluded the limited case of weak fields and Newtonian picture.

AB
 
  • #145


Altabeh said:
Hoku, what do you think of dx's arguments and mine? I definitely look at gravity as a fundamental force ...

Just to be clear, I was not saying that gravity is not one of the fundamental forces/interactions. I was just saying that the question "is gravity a force or is it curvature of spacetime" is a meaningless question. It is both, and there is no contradiction there.

To appreciate my argument, it may be illuminating to note that even Newtonian gravity can be described as curvature of spacetime (see chapter 12 of MTW). There is no contradiction in the fact that something can be described in many ways.
 
  • #146


@Brainstorm: I'm not feeding a troll, sorry.

@Hoku: The best I can do is disengage from brainstorm's argument, so I will.

@dx & @Altabeh: I wasn't under the impression that EITHER of you believed that Gravity wasn't one of the four fundamental foruces. I doubt that anyone else is either; this strikes me as a casual misunderstanding.
 
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  • #147


dx said:
Just to be clear, I was not saying that gravity is not one of the fundamental forces/interactions. I was just saying that the question "is gravity a force or is it curvature of spacetime" is a meaningless question. It is both, and there is no contradiction there.

This is my own view, too and I hope I didn't sound like I was against this idea before.

AB
 
  • #148


Apparently, you did, since Hoku concluded that "the argument between dx and Altabeh is more proof that the question about whether gravity is a force or not is more of an issue than people realize."
 
  • #149


I took DaleSpam's advice to abandon this thread. However, to simplify and consolidate, I looked for relevant threads to jump in on instead of starting a new one. You may have already found it, but I think my post to this thread "Why does mass cause gravity" https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=390301 answers your question. I want to be sure I'm not hijacking the thread, though, so I asked the OP for approval. I sent him/her a PM to be sure approval is either granted or denied.
 
  • #150


I don't think that AB and dx were disagreeing on a fundamental level, but their argument does demonstrate where people CAN and DO disagree fundamentally. Just look at the link I included, however many pages back, from the United States Department of Energy. It says, point blank, that gravity is not a force. This is an issue! Look at the thread in this very forum that dx directed us to, "is gravity a force" or whatever it's title was. This is another example of inability to reconcile to issue. So, when I said, "the argument between dx and Altabeh is more proof that the question about whether gravity is a force or not is more of an issue than people realize." I wasn't necessarily referring to AB and dx, specifically, but to those that take parts of their argument too seriously.
 

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