A question about surjective module-homomorphisms

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter steenis
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Surjective
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around properties of surjective module-homomorphisms, specifically focusing on the relationship between preimages of sums of submodules and the sums of preimages. Participants explore whether the equation \( f^{-1}(X) + f^{-1}(Y) = f^{-1}(X + Y) \) holds true under the condition that \( f \) is surjective.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that for a surjective \( R \)-homomorphism \( f: A \longrightarrow B \), the property \( f(S + T) = f(S) + f(T) \) holds for submodules \( S, T \) of \( A \).
  • Another participant notes that \( f^{-1}(X) + f^{-1}(Y) \subseteq f^{-1}(X + Y) \) is generally true, and explores whether equality can be established when \( f \) is surjective.
  • A later reply provides a proof that \( f^{-1}(X + Y) \subseteq f^{-1}(X) + f^{-1}(Y) \) holds, suggesting that the reverse inequality has already been shown, leading to the conclusion that the two sides are equal.
  • One participant expresses gratitude for the assistance received in clarifying the proof.
  • Another participant inquires about references or resources where similar module-related properties are documented or proven.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants appear to reach a consensus on the proof of the property \( f^{-1}(X + Y) = f^{-1}(X) + f^{-1}(Y) \) under the condition of surjectivity. However, the initial question regarding the truth of the statement before the proof was provided indicates that there was uncertainty prior to the clarification.

Contextual Notes

The discussion does not address potential limitations or assumptions that may affect the generality of the results presented, nor does it explore the implications of the findings in broader contexts.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in module theory, particularly those studying properties of homomorphisms and submodules, may find this discussion relevant.

steenis
Messages
312
Reaction score
18
I have the following question about surjective module-homomorphisms.

Let $f:A \longrightarrow B$ be a surjective $R$-homomorphism between $R$-modules $A$ and $B$.
Let $S, T$ be submodules of $A$ and let $X, Y$ be submodules of $B$.

I can prove that in general
$$f(S+T)=f(S)+f(T)$$
and in general
$$f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y) \subseteq f^{-1}(X+Y)$$
If $f$ is surjective we can combine these two, and we have
$$f(f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y))=f f^{-1}(X)+f f^{-1}(Y)=X+Y$$
But I need this:
$$f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y)=f^{-1}(X+Y)$$
given that $f$ is surjective.

I cannot find the proof and I do not know if it is true, can somebody help me to prove this or give a counterexample or give a reference?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
steenis said:
I have the following question about surjective module-homomorphisms.

Let $f:A \longrightarrow B$ be a surjective $R$-homomorphism between $R$-modules $A$ and $B$.
Let $S, T$ be submodules of $A$ and let $X, Y$ be submodules of $B$.

I can prove that in general
$$f(S+T)=f(S)+f(T)$$
and in general
$$f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y) \subseteq f^{-1}(X+Y)$$
If $f$ is surjective we can combine these two, and we have
$$f(f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y))=f f^{-1}(X)+f f^{-1}(Y)=X+Y$$
But I need this:
$$f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y)=f^{-1}(X+Y)$$
given that $f$ is surjective.

I cannot find the proof and I do not know if it is true, can somebody help me to prove this or give a counterexample or give a reference?
If $a\in f^{-1}(X+Y)$ then $f(a) = x+y$, for some $x$ in $X$ and $y$ in $Y$. If $f$ is surjective then $x = f(b)$ and $y = f(c)$, for some $b,c\in A$. If $d = a-b-c$ then $f(d) = f(a) - f(b) - f(c) = 0.$ It follows that $b+d \in f^{-1}(X)$, and then $a = (b+d) + c \in f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y)$.

That shows that $ f^{-1}(X+Y) \subseteq f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y)$. You have already shown the reverse inequality, so it follows that $ f^{-1}(X+Y) = f^{-1}(X)+ f^{-1}(Y)$.
 
Thank you very much, This is a great help !
 
Doe anyone know references (books or online) in which this kind of "fomulae" of modules (or groups or rings, ...) are listed and maybe proved ?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K