A question related to de Broglie wavelength and the Uncertainty Principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between de Broglie wavelength, wave packets, and the Uncertainty Principle in quantum mechanics. Participants explore the implications of having a definite momentum and wavelength for an electron, as well as the conditions under which wave packets can be localized.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference a high school physics book that states an electron with definite momentum has infinite position uncertainty, questioning why a wave of definite wavelength extends infinitely in space.
  • Others argue that a wave packet is localized only when an infinite number of waves with a continuous spectrum of wavelengths are superimposed, suggesting that simply adding a few different wavelengths does not achieve localization.
  • One participant expresses confusion and requests additional resources, such as videos or diagrams, to clarify the concepts discussed.
  • A later reply emphasizes that if a physical quantity is infinite, it raises suspicion, challenging the validity of the claim regarding infinite position uncertainty and its implications for the Uncertainty Principle.
  • Another participant introduces the mathematical relationship between position and momentum through Fourier transforms, noting that the uncertainty principle applies specifically to these conjugate pairs of observables.
  • Further technical details are provided regarding the mathematical formulation of the uncertainty relation, including the role of commutators and standard deviations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the claim regarding infinite position uncertainty and its relationship to the Uncertainty Principle. There is no consensus on the interpretation of wave packets and their localization properties.

Contextual Notes

Some statements made by participants involve complex mathematical concepts that may not be fully accessible to all readers, indicating a potential gap in understanding regarding the application of Fourier transforms in quantum mechanics.

Rishabh Narula
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"Now, if an electron has a definite momentum p,
(i.e.del p = 0), by the de Broglie relation, it
has a definite wavelength.A wave of definite
(single) wavelength extends all over space.
By Born’s probability interpretation this
means that the electron is not localised in
any finite region of space. That is, its
position uncertainty is infinite
(del x --> infinity ), which is consistent with
the uncertainty principle."
-high school physics book from India,NCERT
Physics 12th part 2.
Why does a wave of definite wavelength extend
all over the space?
Or why does it continue/goes on forever
just because it has one value for wavelength?
And why should then the opposite be true that
a wave packet consisting of different wavelengths
doesn't continue/goes on forever?

i.e I'm asking what does the opposite case
that is these lines mean-
"The wave packet description of
an electron. The wave packet corresponds to a
spread of wavelength around some central
wavelength (and hence by de Broglie relation,
a spread in momentum)."

Please explain simply if you can,my
understanding of this stuff is a beginner
level as of now.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Try:

https://physics.mq.edu.au/~jcresser/Phys304/Handouts/QuantumPhysicsNotes.pdf

The short answer is that a wave-packet is only localised when you superimpose an infinite number of waves with wavelengths over a continuous spectrum. In some ways this is an amazing mathematical trick.

It doesn't become localised just because you add a few waves together of different wavelengths.
 
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PeroK said:
Try:

https://physics.mq.edu.au/~jcresser/Phys304/Handouts/QuantumPhysicsNotes.pdf

The short answer is that a wave-packet is only localised when you superimpose an infinite number of waves with wavelengths over a continuous spectrum. In some ways this is an amazing mathematical trick.

It doesn't become localised just because you add a few waves together of different wavelengths.
thanks,but i still don't really get it.Is there an internet video or pictures explaining this?could you link those too.will go through the pdf and reply further too thanks.
 
Rishabh Narula said:
thanks,but i still don't really get it.Is there an internet video or pictures explaining this?could you link those too.will go through the pdf and reply further too thanks.

This is serious undergraduate level physics. If you cannot follow an undergraduate level text, then there is no simpler explanation. You just have to accept that a mathematical process called a Fourier transform does the trick and move on.

Note that the diagrams on page 16 of the jpf couldn't be clearer on this point.
 
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One should be highly suspicious if they have a physical quantity that is infinite. Limits to infinity are generally okay, but not actual undefined quantities like infinity.

Rishabh Narula said:
"That is, its position uncertainty is infinite (del x --> infinity ), which is consistent with the uncertainty principle." -high school physics book from India,NCERT Physics 12th part 2.

This statement from your book is not true. It can be seen to be not true at least two ways.

1) The Fourier transform of a delta function is an infinite wave. The integral of the probability of a single infinite wave is infinity so it is not normalizable, and thus it isn't a legitimate wave function in quantum mechanics.

2) Heisenberg's uncertainty principal deals with the standard deviations of position and momentum of a wave function: ##\Delta x \Delta p \ge \frac{\hbar}{2}##. From OP's textbook, we are given ##\Delta x = \infty ## and ##\Delta p = 0##. Depending on who you ask, if you multiply these two together you will either get zero or something undefined. Either way, it won't satisfy the inequality.
 
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See if this helps...

"Heisenberg's uncertainty principle for conjugate pairs of observables follows directly from the fact that those observables are essentially the Fourier transforms of each other."
Mathpages
 
This is not true in general but for position and momentum only. Of course it's a very intuitive example. If you have the Fourier transformation of a narrow-peaked function in momentum space to the function in position space,
$$f(x)=\int_{\mathbb{R}} \mathrm{d} p \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi}} \exp(\mathrm{i} p x) \tilde{f}(p),$$
you'll see that ##f## is a broad distribution. If on the other hand ##\tilde{f}(p)## is a broad distribution, ##f(x)## will be a narrow-peaked function.

Quantitatively the uncertainty relation for an arbitrary pair of observable ##A## and ##B##, represented by self-adjoint operators ##\hat{A}## and ##\hat{B}## reads
$$\Delta A \Delta B \geq \frac{1}{2} |\langle [\hat{A},\hat{B}] \rangle|.$$
Here ##\Delta A## and ##\Delta B## are the standard deviations of the quantities calculated with the state ##\hat{\rho}## the system under consideration is prepared in:
$$\langle \hat{X} \rangle:=\mathrm{Tr}(\hat{\rho} \hat{X}),$$
with the standard deviation defined as
$$\Delta A^2 = \langle \hat{A}^2 \rangle - \langle \hat{A} \rangle^2.$$
Then ##[\hat{A},\hat{B}]## is the commutator of the two operators.

For position and momentum you have
$$[\hat{x},\hat{p}]=\frac{1}{2} \mathrm{i} \hbar$$
and thus the uncertainty relation
$$\Delta x \Delta p \geq \frac{1}{2} \hbar.$$
 
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