A Question Relating Sum of Angles and Breaking of the Parallel Postulate

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the sum of the angles in a non-Euclidean triangle and the validity of the parallel postulate. Participants explore whether a triangle's angle sum being greater or less than 180 degrees definitively indicates a violation of the parallel postulate, and whether this can be demonstrated using methods akin to those of Euclid.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if the angles of a triangle sum to something other than 180 degrees, it implies the parallel postulate is falsified, assuming all other postulates hold.
  • Others argue that the proof of the relationship between angle sums and the parallel postulate is not trivial, though it can be straightforward.
  • One participant suggests that the sum of angles equaling π is indicative of flat, non-curved space, though this does not directly follow from Euclid's work.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to consider both directions of the equivalency: if the parallel postulate is true, then the angle sum must equal π, and vice versa.
  • There is mention of confusion regarding the proof methods, with references to inversion and contraposition in the context of Euclid's proofs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the proofs and the implications of angle sums in relation to the parallel postulate. There is no consensus on whether the proof is trivial or straightforward, nor on the completeness of the equivalency discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion involves nuances in the definitions and implications of the parallel postulate and angle sums, which remain unresolved.

walkeraj
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Question: What is the relationship between the sum of the angles of a non-euclidean triangle being greater or less than 180 degrees and the definite breaking of the parallel postulate? Is the proof of this trivial?

Edit: Additionally, can we say that if the angles of a triangle sum to greater or less than 180 degrees it can be shown that the parallel postulate has been broken?

Edit 2: Can the above edit be shown in a method Euclid himself might have employed?
 
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walkeraj said:
Question: What is the relationship between the sum of the angles of a non-euclidean triangle being greater or less than 180 degrees and the definite breaking of the parallel postulate? Is the proof of this trivial?
You want a direct, constructive proof? Because a proof by contradiction is immediate -- given the parallel postulate, you get standard Euclidean geometry where the angles of a triangle are provably 180 degrees. If a triangle does not satisfy that and if all of the other postulates hold good then the Parallel Postulate is falsified.
 
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I think the sum of angles equaling ##\pi## is equivalent to being in flat, i.e., non-curved space. Though that doesn't follow from Euclid, I don't think.
 
The proof of this equivalency, and several others, is provided here.
 
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walkeraj said:
Question: What is the relationship between the sum of the angles of a non-euclidean triangle being greater or less than 180 degrees and the definite breaking of the parallel postulate? Is the proof of this trivial?

Edit: Additionally, can we say that if the angles of a triangle sum to greater or less than 180 degrees it can be shown that the parallel postulate has been broken?

Edit 2: Can the above edit be shown in a method Euclid himself might have employed?
There seems to be some confusion here.

Euclid proved, using the so-called "parallel postulate" as an axiom, that the angles of a triangle sum to 180°. The proof is not trivial, but it is quite simple and can be found easily on line.

Therefore he also proved (by [Edit]inversion contraposition) that if in some geometry the interior angles of a triangle do not sum to 180° then the parallel postulate is false in that geometry. That is why we call such geometries non-Euclidean.
 
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pbuk said:
There seems to be some confusion here.

Euclid proved, using the so-called "parallel postulate" as an axiom, that the angles of a triangle sum to 180°. The proof is not trivial, but it is quite simple and can be found easily on line.

Therefore he also proved (by inversion) that if in some geometry the interior angles of a triangle do not sum to 180° then the parallel postulate is false in that geometry. That is why we call such geometries non-Euclidean.
This proves only half of the equivalency: if the fifth postulate is true, then sum of angles of any triangle is ##\pi##.
There is the other half: if sum of angles of any triangle is ##\pi##, is the statement of the fifth postulate true?
 
Hill said:
There is the other half: if sum of angles of any triangle is ##\pi##, is the statement of the fifth postulate true?
Oops, that is indeed the inverse of the sum of angles theorem but I meant to refer to the contrapositive, not the inverse. Corrected, thanks.
 
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