Actual Author of Shakespeare's Works

honestrosewater

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quddusaliquddus said:
HRW [if you dnt mind me calling u so], you have said that it has been a while since you researched Shakespeare - or at least in view of authorship. May I ask what interest you have/had in this field? ... I ask out of curiosity ...

I will await a response.
I am a writer.

I can't respond to the other posts. They are the same as the ones before them.
 

honestrosewater

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quddusaliquddus said:
Are you aware of the legal and scientific excerpts in the Works that an ordinary individual could not have access to? Are you also aware of the correspondence between the NEW scientific theories Sit Francis Bacon was theorising about that 'happened' to appear literally in the plays? I will post them for you if you are not aware of these.
No, thanks. Assumptions, interpretations, similarities- these things will not convince me. Of course, post them for other's sake if you like.
I would love to hear something I can accept as evidence. Like who you think pretended to be poet Shakespeare.
 

honestrosewater

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quddusaliquddus said:
Coincedence? Maybe. Coincedence? Maybe not if we add everything up. Don't you think it is possible there maybe some link?
Yes, I think it’s possible. I also think it’s possible the Bible is true. But since I have so much reliable evidence to the contrary, and so little reliable evidence in the affirmative, I think it is possible, but unlikely.
Lets not confuse quantity with quality. I’m sure you can give examples all day long, but I need a certain kind of evidence to change my mind- the kind of evidence I explained earlier.

I'll look at the Promus and get back to you on this.

quddusaliquddus said:
For all you're evidence nothing necessitates Shakespeare to be the author.
Do you reject or accept the public records in the link I provided?
 
honestrosewater said:
I would love to hear something I can accept as evidence. Like who you think pretended to be poet Shakespeare.
If 'Who' or 'What I think' was evidence to you - we wouldn't be having this conversation.

honestrosewater said:
No, thanks. Assumptions, interpretations, similarities- these things will not convince me.
Surely not. Assumptions, interpretations, and similarities are the basis of your own theories about the origin of the plays.
(If you can say anything without assumptions of any kind, or discuss history without interpretations - I'll eat my hat collection ;D)

I will further comment on you links soon, as for now I will provide more things for you to think about (Maybe a little maths will help)
 
How do you explain the deep intrenchment of the Plays in Freemasonry without referral to Sir Francis Bacon? Do you have the background info on Shakespeare that explains this? How do you explain the presence of these scinetific legal etc... information within the plays?..without saying he piucked it up from sumwhere...you don't mean to say you don't know the life Shakespeare? - read on Bacon. Would you say the expressions of the Plays make it unique - amongst other things - the expressions are the most powerful presence of the Plays influence we can observe to date.
 
In the play, "Love's Labour's Lost," the author puns twice in the French language--once when he use the word "capon" in the double sense of a fowl and a love letter, and again when he uses the word "paint" in the double sense of the tip of a sword and a strong French negative. If follows that the author must have had not only a knowledge of the French language, but was also a fluent French scholar. This play also contains many sentences in Latin, Spanish and Italian.
It must be remembered that Francis Bacon spent nearly three years in France in his youth after leaving Cambridge.

Label this fact all you like - can you explain how the ugly ducklin not only turned into swan but also was fluent enough to be witty with so many languages. Convinced you may not be of Bacon (yet) - are you still convinced of Shakespeare being this energetic learner of all without any resources?

In "Henry VI," Part 2, is a character, Lord Saye, a Justice, who is arrested by Cade and accused of various crimes and misdemeanours. In the Quarto Editions of 1594, 1600 and 1619 he answers his accusers in four lines, but in the First Folio of 1623 his speech is enlarged and contains the following lines:

"Justice with favour have I always done
Prayers and tears have mov'd me, gifts could never.
What have I aught exacted at your hands
But to maintain the King, the realm and you?
Large gifts have I bestow'd on learned clerks,
Because my book preferred me to the King."
-Act 4, Scene 7.
Is it a coincidence that three passages in this speech clearly apply to Francis Bacon?
1.- The judge denies that he has received gifts and been guilty of bribery. Why make this denial when he is not accused of bribery in the play? Francis Bacon, who fell from power in 1621 under charges of bribery, always strenuously denied these charges, declaring them to be false and of which subsequent history has proved him innocent.

2. -The judge states that he had sent a book of which he was author to the King and had been "preferred" on account of it.
Bacon sent a copy of his Novum Organon in 1620 to King James, who immediately afterwards created him Viscount St. Alban.

3.- The judge states that he has bestowed large gifts on persons of subordinate rank. Bacon was noted for his generosity to the same class of people, and gave large gratuities to messengers who came to him with gifts from various friends.
Note that the above additions to Lord Saye's speech were made after 1621 when Bacon was accused of bribery, and seven years after the death of Will Shaksper in 1616.

This is not coincedence - its correlation.

Your mentioning the Bible reminds me of this:

It is supposed to be a coincidence that in the 46th psalm the 46th word from the beginning is "shake," and the 46th word from the end is "speare."

In earlier editions of the Bible we find the position of these two words "shake" and "speare" to be as follows:

1535 or Coverdale Bible---56th word dwon is "shook," 47 word up "speare."
1539 or Great Bible---46th word down "shake," 48th word up "speare."
1560 or Geneva Bible--- 47th word down "shake," 44th word up "speare."
1568 or Bishop Bible--- 47th word down "shake," 48th word up "speare."
Is it a coincidence that in the 1611 Bible, the 46th word from the beginning of the 46th Psalm is "shake," and the 46th word from the end "speare?" We submit that Francis Bacon, who on an accumulation of evidence, is believed to have been responsible for the final editing of the 1611 Bible, took the opportunity, by making small verbal alterations in the 46th Psalm, of earmarking his associations as "Shakespeare" with this version of the Bible.

Even Macaulay admits that Bacon "in perceiving analogies between things which had nothing in common had no equal."

Francis Bacon expressed his intentions of reforming the English language, which, in Elizabethan times, was so uncouth that it was necessary for an educated man to express his thoughts in Latin.

Is it a coincidence that "Shakespeare" had exactly the same idea, and proceeded to carry it out by coining entirely new words derived from Latin sources and inserting them in the "Shakespeare" plays?"

The following are a few examples of brand new words coined by "Shakespeare" and used for the first time in the Shakespeare plays:

Abruption, from ab-rumpere, to break off, to terminate suddenly.
Absolute, from absolvere, to free, as from doubt
Admittance, from ad-mittere, to admit, as into Society
Affront, from ad-frontem, to meet face to face, to accost, without any feeling of hostility.
Antre, from antrum, cave.
Assubjugate, from as-subjugare, to debase.
Cadent, from cadere, to fall.
Capitulate, from capitulare, to make terms, not necessarily in surrender.
Captious, from capere, to receive.
Character, from Greek character, instrument for marking.
Circummure, from circummurare, to wall around.
Civil, from civis, citizen.
Conflux, from confluere, to flow together
Conspectuities, form conspicere, to behold
Continuate, from continuatus, enduring.
Constringed, from con-stringere, to draw together
Convent, from con-venire, to come together.
Convive, from conv-vivere, to live or feast together.
Credent, from credere, to believe.
Derogate, from derogare, to rule.
Directitude, from dirigere, to rule.
Expiate, from ex-pirari, to expire, come to an end.
Fluxive, from fluere, to flow.
Iterance, from iterare, to repeat.
Sanctuarize, from Sanctus, holy.


Francis Bacon was a profound and critical classical scholar and so was "Shakespeare," as the above examples of words coined by him clearly show.

In 1595 a book entitled Polimanteia was printed in Cambridge and signed W.C., which is considered to stand for William Clerke, who was a scholar there. The book contains a letter addressed to the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, and the Inns of Court. In the margin of the text of this letter are found the names of many persons who in the author's opinion had done honour to those institutions by their presence as students in one or more of them.

We find the word "Lucrecia" preceding the words "Sweet Shake-speare." This implies that Sweet Shake-speare, the author of Lucrece, was a member of one of these universities. No person of the name of Shakespeare was ever enrolled at any of these institutions. Sir Sidney Lee's only comment on this fact is: "In 1595 William Clerke in his Polimanteia gave all praise to Sweet Shakespeare for his Lucretia." Sir Sidney Lee, who was entirely unscupulous when dealing with "Shakespere," purposely suppresses the fact that the author of Polimanteia tells us that "Shakespeare" was a member of one of those universities, because, had he done so, he would have been asked for some evidence that Will Shaksper had attended a university, of which of course there is no evidence whatsoever. In the same way, in every edition of Lee's Life of Shakespeare, we find the statement that the present monument at Stratford was erected shortly after Shaksper's death, although Lee knew perfectly well that the present statue was erected in 1748.
It must be remembered that Polimanteia was printed one year after "Shakespeare's " Lucrece was published, and before the publication of any of the "Shakespeare" plays.
Is it a coincidence that "Shakespeare" (the author of Lucrece) and Francis Bacon were both educated at a university?
 
"Othello" chides Desdemona for losing the handkerchief he had given her as his first love token in the following words:

"There's magic in the web of it,
A Sybil that numbered in the world
The sun to course two hundred compasses,
In her prophetic fury, sew'd the work."

This passage shows us that "Shakespeare" must have been able to read Italian in the original, since the unusual phrase "prophetic fury" is taken form Orlando Furioso by Ariosto, where we find the words "furor prophetico" used in the description of a woman, sibyl-like, weaving a cloth of magic virtues.
There is no evidence that Will Shaksper could either speak or read Italian.
Is it a coincidence that Bacon in his acknowledged works makes free use of Italian literature, and quotes it in its own language?

In "The Merchant of Venice" we find the following

"This night, methinks, is but the daylight sick,
It looks a little paler: 'tis a day
Such as the day is when the sun is hid."
-Act 5, Scen 1
In Italy the light of the moon and stars is almost as yellow as the sunlight in England.
How did Will Shaksper know this if he had never been to Italy(of which there is no evidence?)
In the play "The Winter's Tale" we find the following:

"The Princesse hearing of her mother's statue, a piece many yeeres in doing, and now newly perform'd by that rare Italian Master, Julio Romano."
- Act 5, Scene 2
Here we find Guilio Romano described as a rare sculptor, but in "Shakespeare's" time Romano was known as a painter and architect only, not as a sculptor.
Vasari, however, in 1550 and again in 1568, described him as a sculptor-- on both occasions in Italian, not in English.
This means that "Shakespeare" must have studied Vasari in the original Italian, or else had actually been in Mantua and seen Romano's sculptured works.
No evidence exists that Will Shaksper could read Italian or had ever travelled abroad.
In "Shakespeare's " day there was at Venice a common ferry at two places, Fusina and Mestre--the ferries in Venice being called Traghetti.

In the play "Merchant of Venice" we find the lines:

"Unto the tranect, to the common ferry
Which trades to Venice."
-Act 3, Scene 4
The word "tranect" appears to be a misprint for "traject"; presumably the printers would not understand such an uncommon expression as "traject."
If the author of this play had not personally visited Italy, how did he know that there was such a ferry and such a boat? If he had not visited Italy, how did he know that the exact distance from Mantebello to Padua is twenty miles, for he must have done so because in this play Portia and Nerissa have to travel between these two places, and we find in the play the line:

"For we must measure twenty miles to-day."
Act 3, Scene 4.

The author of this play could not have obtained his knowledge of Venice from any description of that city published in England, because the play was written in 1600, and the first description of Venice is Coryat's dated 1611.
The author of The Taming of the Shrew must also have had a good knowledge of the Italian language, because Cambio (the name taken by Lucentio when he changes places with his servant, Tranio) means exchange.
From 1585 to 1600 Corregio's famous picture of Jupiter and Io was in the palace of the palace of the sculptor Leoni at Milan, and was constantly viewed by travellers.

In the "Introduction" to The Taming of the Shrew we find
the words :

"We'll show thee Io as she was a maid,
And how she was beguiled and surpris'd,
As lively painted as the deed was done."
which is clearly a reference to Corregio's picture at Milan.
In "Shakespeare's" time there were no guide books for the use of travellers, and he could not have gathered his knowledge of Italy from such sources. There is no evidence that Will Shaksper ever left England; on the other hand Francis Bacon spent three years travelling on the continent.

Will Shaksper is stated to have died on the 23rd April, 1616. The same year George Sandys published Journey, in which, referring to the Pontic sea, he says: "This sea is ....much annoyed with ice in the winter. The Bosphorus setteth with a strong current into Propontis."

Is it a coincidence that in the play of "Othello" in the First Folio, we find almost the same words? They read:
"Like to the Pontic sea whose icy current
.....keeps due on to the Propontic?'
Act 3, Scene 3.

These words could not have been used by Will Shaksper, who had died shortly after Sandy's book was published.
They do not appear in the play of "Othello," published in quarto in 1622 and first appeared in The First Folio of 1623.

Is it also a coincidence that the two seas east and west of the Bosphorus are mentioned under similar names both by "Shakespeare" and Bacon--Shakespeare calling them "Pontic and Propontic," and Bacon in his treatise entitled "De Fluxu et Refluxu Maris," calling them "Pontus and Propontis?"

Ben Jonson in his Discoveries, writing of Francis Bacon, says:

"He hath performed that in our tongue which may be compared or preferred either to insolent Greece or haughty Rome;
and in his dedicatory verses in the First Folio of "Shakespeare" Jonson uses practically the same words, as follows :

"for the comparison of all that insolent Greece or haughty Rome sent forth."
Is this a coincidence? Does it not show that these expressions were intended to refer to the same man?

In the play of "Henry VI," Part 1, is a scene (Act 3, Scene 3) in which Joan of Arc has an interview with the Duke of Burgundy, and asks him to abandon the cause of the English and join the French King.There is no historical record that this interview ever took place.

In 1780 someone in France printed a letter, dated 17th July, 1429, written by Joan of Arc to the Duke of Burgundy, and this letter contains a passionate appeal to the Duke to take precisely the identical course urged upon him in the play. It is clear that the existence of this letter was unknown in England in Shakespeare's time---if it had been it was so imporant that it would have been mentioned by Hall or Holinshed or some other English chronicler.



The letter appears also to have been unknown in France until it was discovered and printed 350 years after it was written. Is it a coincidence that somehow or other the author of "Henry VI" was acquainted with an important fact in French history that was not discovered until more than 200 years after the date of this play? Not the slightest evidence exists to show that Will Shaksper was ever in France, but the author "Shakespeare" was in France and visited the scenes made memorable in the play, and he may have personally gathered some oh his material from the French and Burgundian national archives.

In "All's Well that Ends Well" we read:
"I am St. St. Jacques' pilgrim, thither gone."
Act 3, Scene 4.

Is it a coincidence that at the time when Francis Bacon visited Orleans there was a church there dedicated to St. Jacques?

It seems doubtful whether this fact was then known in England, and the line quoted above seems to have been dragged in for some purpose, since it has no relation to the dramatic progress of the play. For "Shakespeare's" purpose one saint was as good as another, so why mention St. Jacques in particular?
"Shakespeare" was familiar with the old classical myths and legends, for in the plays there are 174 different names of the characters around which these myths cluster.

Is it a coincidence that Francis Bacon in 1609 published a book in Latin called The Wisdom of the Ancients, which analyses and explains some of the most prominent Greek and Roman myths; and is it also a coincidence that, of the 174 different names of the characters above referred to, 132 are found in Bacon's prose works; there being eighty-five of these names that are common to "Shakespeare's" and Bacon's works?

================
There are many more.
If coincidence then point to another author of the same time who had 1/10th of the number of coincedences as that between Shakespeare and Sir Francis Bacon - and we are not finished yet ;D
 
i dont know who it is, but i dont believe its Shakespear, like you guys said Sir Bacon, how could Shakespear have the knowledge of upper class/royalty trechery, i believe it was "enter name here", Shakespear's mentor kind of deal, if you look at that mentors coat of arms you'll notice a spear held by a hand, with wigle line meaning it is shaken hence Shakespear, besides the way Shakespears writes in his plays is the way the Bourgoisie talked, not the commoner

my 2 cents
 
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quddusaliquddus said:
This passage shows us that "Shakespeare" must have been able to read Italian in the original, since the unusual phrase "prophetic fury" is taken form Orlando Furioso by Ariosto, where we find the words "furor prophetico" used in the description of a woman, sibyl-like, weaving a cloth of magic virtues.
There is no evidence that Will Shaksper could either speak or read Italian.
Shakespeare was clearly fascinated with Italy and set a few of his plays there. His main source of information about Italy would have been, not from books, but from people he met who had been there. He would surely have pumped them for all the information he could get out of them, including Italian phrases and poems.

Indeed, his knowledge in general was no doubt gained this way. This is the craft of the playwrite: you don't have to know everything about a certain subject. You have to have an ear for the kind of turns of speech and vocabulary that will give a dialog the ring of verisimilitude. That's all. Shakespeare had no need to read or speak Italian. He simply had to pay attention to the kinds of things that those who did speak it said. Hearing what seemed like a witticism, he would naturally stop them and ask them to explain. In this way, he becomes conversant with puns in foreign languages usually only known to people fluent in those languages.

This is how playwrites work. They are sensitive to the flavor of conversations, and to details that give them life.
Shakespeare could create the impression of knowing a great deal he probably didn't actually know in the same way he could create the sense of what it must be like to be a King, without ever having been a King. Or a gravedigger or a scullery maid or "rude mechanical" or common soldier, or a diplomat, or whatever. Is "A Midsummer's Night's Dream" evidence that it's author was good friends with fairies and wood spirits? Of course not.

"The poet's eye
In a fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from earth to heaven,
From heaven to earth,
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown
The poet's pen turns them to shapes,
And gives to airy nothing
A local habitation
And a name."

Shakespeare learned what he did know from talking to people. The rest he made up from his prodigious imagination.
 
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"This is how playwrites work. They are sensitive to the flavor of conversations, and to details that give them life."

If this is a common occurence amongst playwrite, kindly give us examples from his period of the same thing happening. No-one obviously matches Shakespeare's genius- agreed - but a lesser playwrites must have worked along the same lines.

Right now I am not sure about the conspiratorial side of things of the Baconian Theory as it unsettles me - involves too many wierd and obscure people and organisation. What I am sure of however is that there is something to the Baconian story as I will illustrate further, hopefully
 
Have a read of the above - post number 57. Then please look at it carefully and you will see concrete facts about the geographic knowledge - not obscure connections and generalisations like 'He jus [Italics] couldn't [/Italics] know Italy'
 
The tragedy of Hamlet was written in or about 1586, but not printed until 1603. In this first draft of the play we find a letter, written by the prince to Ophelia, in which she is told she may doubt any proposition whatever, no matter how certain it may be, but under no circumstances must she doubt the writers' love. From this letter, which is partly in verse, we quote:

"Doubt that in earth is fire,
Doubt that the stars do move,
Doubt truth to be a liar,
But do not doubt I love."--ii.2.
Among the certainties here specified, which Ophelia was at liberty to question before she could question the writers' love, is the doctrine of a central fire in the earth. "Doubt that in earth is fire." The belief in the existence of a mass of molten matter at the centre of the earth was then, as it is now, universal; but for some reason the author of he play changed his mind in regard to it within one year after the play was published. The second edition of Hamlet came from the press in 1604, and then the first line of the stanza, quoted above, was made to read as follows:

"Doubt that the stars are fire."
The doctrine of a central fire in the earth was thus taken out of the play some time between the appearance of the first edition in 1603 and that of the second in 1604. How can this be accounted for? was there another person known to fame in all the civilized world at that time, besides the author of Hamlet, who entertained a doubt as to the earth's interior? Yes, there was one, and perhaps one only. Francis Bacon wrote a tract, entitled Cogitationes de Natura Rerum , assigned to the latter part of 1603 or the early part of 1604. Mr. Spedding, the last and best editor of Bacon's works, thinks it was written before September, 1604. In this tract, evidently a fresh study of the subject, Bacon boldly took the ground that the earth is a cold body, cold to the core, the only cold body, as he afterwards affirmed, in the entire universe, all others, sun, planets, and stars, being of fire.

It appears, then, that Bacon adopted this new view of the earth's interior at precisely the same time that the author of Hamlet did; :smile: that is to say, according to the record, in the brief interval between the appearance of the first and that of the second editions of the drama, and, furthermore, against the otherwise unanimous opinion of the physicists throughout the world. Bacon writes:

"The heaven, from its pefect and entire heat and the extreme extension of matter, is most hot, lucid, rarefied, and moveable; whereas the earth, on the contrary, from its entire and unrefracted cold, and the extreme contraction of matter, is most cold, dark, and dense, completely immoveable.....The rigors of cold, which in winter time and in the coldest countries are exhaled into the air from the surface of the earth, are merely tepid airs and baths, compared with the nature of the primal cold shut up in the bowels thereof."--Bacon's De Principiis atque Originibus
 
In the second edition of Hamlet, 1604, we find the tides of the ocean attributed, in acordance with popular opinion, to the influence of the moon.

"The moist star,
Upon whose influence Neptune's empire stands,
Was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."--i. 1.
This was repeated in the third quarto, 1605; in the fourth, 1611; in the fifth or undated quarto; but in the first folio (1623), the lines were omitted. Why?

During the Christmas revels at Gray's Inn in 1594, Bacon contributed to the entertainment, among other things, a poem in blank verse, known as the Gray's Inn Masque. It is full of those references to natural philosophy in which the author took so much delight, and especially on this occasion when Queen Elizabeth was the subject, to the various forms of attraction exerted by one body upon another in the world. Of the influence of the moon, he says:

"Your rock claims kindred of the polar star,
Because it draws the needle to the north;
Yet even that star gives place to Cynthia's rays,
Whose drawing virtues govern and direct
The flots and re-flots of the Ocean."
(The masque is not in Bacon's name, but no one can read it and doubt its authorship. Bacon was the leading promoter of these revels.)

At this time, then, Bacon held to the common opinion that the moon controls the tides; but later in life, in or about 1616, he made an elaborate investigation into these phenomona, and in a treatise entitled De Fluxu et Refluxu Maris, definitely rejected the lunar theory.

" We dare not proceed so far as to assert that the motions of the sun or moon are the causes of the motions below, which correspond thereto; or that the sun and moon have a dominion or influence over these motions of the sea, though such kind of thoughts find an easy entrance into the minds of men by reason of the veneration they pay to the celesial bodies.

Whether the moon be in her increase or wane; whether she be above or under the earth; whether she be elevated higher or lower above the horizon; whether she be in the meridian or elsewhere; the ebb and flow of the sea have no correspondence with any of these phenomona."- Bacon's De Fluxu et Refluxu Maris

In every edition of Hamlet published previously to 1616, the theory is stated and approved; in every edition published after 1616, it is omitted.
:smile:
The titles are attributed to the influence of the moon in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' and the 'Winter's Tale'; but both these plays were written long before the date of Bacon's change of opinion on the subject. The former we know was not revised by the author for publication in the folio; and we have no reason to believe that the latter, then printed for the first time, underwent any revision after 1616.

The same theory is stated, also, in 'King Lear' and the 'First Part of Henry IV'; but the tragedy was in existence in 1606, and the historical play considerably earlier. The 'Tempest' was written in 1613.

It should be added, however, that the spring or monthly tides were ascribed by Bacon to the influence of the moon.

The passage from ' Hamlet' has been restored to the text by modern editors.
 
In 'Hamlet', again, we have a singular doctrine in the sphere of moral philosophy, advanced by the author in his early years but subseqently withdrawn.

The prince, expostulating with his mother in the celebrated chamber-scene where Polinus was hidden behind the arras, says to her,--

"Sense, sure, you have,
Else could you not have motion." iii. 4 (1604).
The commentators can make nothing of these words. One of them suggests that for "motion" we substitute notion; another, emotion. Others still contend that the misprint is in the first part of the sentence; that "sense" must be understood to mean sensation or sensibility. Dr. Ingleby is certain that Hamlet refers to the Queen's wanton impulse. The difficulty is complicated, too, by the fact that the lines were omitted from the revised version of the play in the folio of 1623, concerning which, however, the most daring commentator has not ventured to offer a remark. But in Bacon's prose works we find not only an explanation of the passage in the quarto, but also the reason why it was excluded from the folio.

The 'Advancement of Learning' was published in 1605, one year after the quarto of ' Hamlet' containing the sentence in question appeared; but no repudiation of the old doctrine, that everything that has motion must have sense, is found in it. Indeed, Bacon seems to have had at that time a lingering opinion that the doctrine is true, even as applied to the planets, in the influence which these wanderers were then supposed to exert over the affairs of men. But in 1623 he published a new edition of the 'Advancement' in Latin, under the title of De Augmentis Scientiarum, and therein expressly declared that the doctrine is untrue; that there can be motion in inanimate bodies without sense, but with what he called a kind of perception. He said:

"Ignorance on this point drove some of the ancient philosophers to suppose that a soul is infused into all bodies without distinction; for they could not conceive how there can be motion without sense, or sense without a soul."

The Shake-speare folio with its revised version of Hamlet came out in the same year (1623); and the passage in question, having run through all previous editions of the play,-- i.e., in 1604, in 1605, in 1611, and in the undated quarto,--but now no longer harmonizing with the author's views, dropped out :smile:
 
In Bacon's Apotheghems it is said that, "The book of deposing Richard the Second, and the coming in of Henry the Fourth, supposed to be written by Dr. Hayward, who was committed to the Tower for it, had much incensed Elizabeth, and she asked Mr. Bacon, being then of her learned counsel: Whether there were no treason contained in it? Mr. Bacon, intending to do him a pleasure, and to take off the Queen's bitterness with a jest, answered:

"No, madam, for treason I cannot deliver opinion that there is any, but very much felony." The Queen apprehending it gladly, asked: "How and wherein?" Mr. Bacon answered: "Because he had stolen many of his sentences and conceits out of Cornelius Tacitus."

In an early number of Baconiana, a writer showed that whole pages of The Annals of Tacitus were used in Richard II. The play was staged in 1597, during the Essex Rebellion and before, and Bacon, at the trial of Essex makes the cryptic remark: "It is said I gave in evidence mine own tales." All these indications point to Bacon's connection with Richard II.

Mr. Henry Seymour pointed out the extraordinary fact that this play was published annonymously in the first instance, and that only when the Queen was hunting for it's author to rack him, the new edition of 1598 was issued with the name of "William Shakespeare" as author! Was this the moment to print a real author's name upon it? It plainly shows that this name was but a pseudonym, that Bacon was the concealed author, and that his knowledge of its "cribbing" from Tacitus was an unconscious admission of the fact.
 
Bacon speaks again and again of Richard II, and in a letter to the Earl of Devonshire, says:

" I remember an answer of mine in a manner which had some affinity* with my Lord's cause; which, though it grew from me, went after about in other's names; for her Majesty being mightily incensed with that book which dedicated to my Lord Essex, being a story of the first year of King Henry IV, thinking it a seditious prelude to put into the people's heads boldness and faction, said, she had an opinion there was treason in it, and asked me if I could not find any places in it that might be drawn with case of treason......... And, another time, when the Queen could not be persuaded that it was his writing whose name was to it, but that it had some more mischievous author......said with great indignation that she would have him "racked to produce his author."
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*the prose work of Henry IV, ascribed to John Hayward, was to all intents and purposes, the life of Richard II. Only a small portion at the end is concerned with Henry IV, the main text with Richard.
 
How do you explain this:

The "Shakespeare" Play, Timon of Athens, was never printed in quarto and, so far as is known, never produced on any stage, previously to its appearance in the First Folio of 1623. Contemporary literature gives no hint of its existence prior to 1623. The question may therefore be asked ''If this play was written by Will Shaksper, where was the manuscript during the period between Shaksper's death in 1616 and its appearance seven years afterwards in the Folio?"

If it was sent by Shaksper to Heminge and Condell, then it is remarkably strange that they did not inform the literary coterie in London that they had in their possession a brand-new play by Shaksper which had never been heard of before! If for some unknown reason they wished to keep this fact secret, then surely when they were gathering together the plays for publication in the Folio they would have been only too delighted to have informed the Reader that they were printing for the first time a Shakespeare play which had never been performed on any stage.

On the other hand, they give the reader the impression that all the plays printed in the Folio were known to the public, because in their preface

"To the Great Variety of Readers'' they state that ''these Plaies have had their triall alreadie and stood out all applause" and "before you were abused with diverse stolne and surreptitious copies."

They also say 'What he thought, he uttered with that easinesse, that we have scarce received from him a blot in his papers,'' which implies that they had received the manuscripts of the plays direct from the author's hands.

Will Shaksper having died seven years before the publication of the Folio, this must mean that Shaksper had handed over this play of Timon of Athens to Heminge and Condell in his lifetime, and if this was so it is certainly extraordinary that Heminge and Condell never mentioned this fact to anybody.

Ulrici referring to this play, writes that ''no one could have painted misanthropy with such truth and force without having experienced its bitter agony." Yet Sir Sidney Lee writes that "Shakspere's career shows an unbroken progress of prosperity and there is no support for the suggestion of a prolonged personal experience of tragic suffering."

On the other hand, the experiences of Francis Bacon after his fall from power are precisely similar to those of Timon in this play, because he suffered from the ingratitude of a great number of his so-called friends who deserted him, as witness his letters to Buckingham and King James. It must be remembered that Bacon fell from power in 1621, and the play of Timon is first heard of two years afterwards, in 1623.
 
A handwriting expert has added weight to claims that the Elizabethan author and philosopher Francis Bacon wrote the plays attributed to Shakespeare.

Maureen Ward-Gandy claims it is "highly probable" that Bacon was the author of a recently discovered manuscript describing a scene which bears a striking similarity to one from Henry IV. She compared a copy of the handwritten document, thought to date back to the 1590s when Henry IV was written and published, with the handwriting of 30 well-known scholars and statesmen of the Elizabethan era.

Mrs. Ward-Gandy's strong belief that the handwriting is Bacon's has been hailed by Bacon supporters as a major breakthrough in proving the true authorship of the 38 plays, 150 sonnets and two long poems which bear William Shakespeare's name.

The debate over who wrote what, which has dogged literary critics for more than a century, resurfaced recently when the manuscript went on sale at Sotheby's. Comprising a single sheet of 57 neatly handwritten lines, the document was expected to fetch up to £12,000 but was unsold. It has since been returned to its secret owner.

Mrs. Ward-Gandy, who outlined her findings in a 20-page report, is a forensic document examiner, a job which often involves studying handwriting for the police and Home Office to establish fraud. She said "The shapes of the letters and style of writing in the manuscript point to the writing being that of Bacon. It is very exciting and could settle the argument once and for all that the Shakespeare plays were in fact written by Bacon."

The scene in the manuscript describes a conversation in which an innkeeper tells two thieves of "a man that lodged in our house/Last night that hath three hundred markes in gold." Similar conversations in an almost identical setting are described in Henry IV.

Francis Carr, historian and the Director of the Shakespeare Authorship Information Centre in Brighton, believes the document was a reject script for Henry IV. Mr. Carr, who dedicated 30 years to proving authorship, believes Bacon was writing under the pseudonym of William Shakespeare. "I think this is probably a breakthrough to the whole authorship mystery," he said. "It could bring the whole subject into the open again. The information we have built up pointing to Bacon could blow the whole of Stratford sky high."

From London Evening Standard, July 30, 1992
:smile:
 
1587 Sir Francis Bacon assists in presenting at Gray's Inn Revels an anonymous play The Tragedy of Arthur, a reminiscence of King John, containing many extracts found in his notebook, the Promus (With The Promus alone might a brief be made for the plaintiff)

Can speculate that his Order of the Knights of the Helmet was forming with the University wits around this time?

Shake-speare a mature poet by this time :D
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Francis Bacon's name is hidden throughout the original 1623 Folio of Shakespearean plays. This "B" with "Francis" and "Bacon" inserted in the scrollwork is from the first word of The Tempest, Boteswaine The story was first published in 1931 in the Cincinnati Times-Star newspaper and in the Literary Digest:

litdigest.gif


ctimes.gif


1624 November: The Great Shakespeare Folio of 1623 , edited by Ben Jonson, consisting of thirty-six plays, many never heard of before, is published.
 

honestrosewater

Gold Member
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quddusaliquddus said:
If 'Who' or 'What I think' was evidence to you - we wouldn't be having this conversation.)
Yes, but there was a body, a walking, talking body. Unless you deny that there had to be a face to the poet, then your case is mightily weakened if you do not have an explaination for whose face it was. I say it was player Shakespeare.

quddusaliquddus said:
Surely not. Assumptions, interpretations, and similarities are the basis of your own theories about the origin of the plays.
(If you can say anything without assumptions of any kind, or discuss history without interpretations - I'll eat my hat collection ;D)
Yes, but this goes back to my post about the reliability of evidence. Some assumptions are reasonable- like that people had eyes and could recognize a face by looking at it.

I have barely gotten into my theories. If you would kindly answer my question. Who was Greene referring to as the "upstart crow"? That is a very straightforward question.

There are some interesting things in your posts, sure. But there are some troubling problems with them as well.

Do you reject the evidence that the 1622 Othello quarto was published from a copy at least 16 years old?

Happy thoughts
Rachel
 

honestrosewater

Gold Member
2,071
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None of those posts contains a scrap of reliable evidence.

It looks like trying to find a reliable piece of evidence in support of Bacon is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

If you have reliable evidence in support of Bacon- please share.

So far, your case is airy nothing.

The author had a local habitation and a name.

Who was the person walking the streets of London and being called William Shakespeare?
 
I believe there might be a flaw in your logic. It is ok that you turn to the question of 'who was the walking-talking Shakespeare?'. It's ok that you criticise the evidence.
But its not ok that you call the evidence unreliable without saying why. It's not ok that you use the existence of a man called Shakespeare to dismiss the evidence.

You're running in circles my friend.

honestrosewater said:
None of those posts contains a scrap of reliable evidence.
Please explain.

honestrosewater said:
Who was the person walking the streets of London and being called William Shakespeare?
I haven't denied Shakespeare's existence. I have showed you however that all the evidence points to Sir Francis Bacon being the author of the Plays. I am also showing you the lack of information on the person by the name of Shakespeare and the improbablity of his having the basic knowledge to have written the plays.

Please show how the evidence is faulty.

Please show proof of the authorship of the plays by Shakespeare [not just the existence of a man by that name]. When you cannot do this - please show the sources of his vast knowledge - knowledge only comparable to that of Sir Francis Bacon.

Show how Bacon could not have written the plays using Shakespeare as a mask.
 
6,171
1,275
quddusaliquddus said:
Have a read of the above - post number 57. Then please look at it carefully and you will see concrete facts about the geographic knowledge - not obscure connections and generalisations like 'He jus [Italics] couldn't [/Italics] know Italy'
As I said, all he needed to include any information about Italy in his plays was to have talked to people who'd been to Italy. The fact he seems to speak from first hand knowledge is, as I said, what all playwrites do with all situations they treat. Shakespeare did not have to be a King to write so effectively about Kings. Nor did he have to have been to Italy, or speak Italian.

Shouldn't we, by your logic, assume that Bacon, if he actually wrote these plays, must also have been secretly a Monarch to write so knowingly about the emotional details that only someone in the position of Monarch could actually experience? Was "Bacon" not really a pseudonym for "Elizabeth"? If not, why not? Why otherwise the fascination with Monarchy in these plays? Doesn't this constitute evidence, by your logic, of the hand of a Monarch behind these plays? Think about it. Isn't there a woman who dresses up to pass herself off as a man in one of "Shakespeare'"s plays? Goodness, that must be some kind of clue! Let's play connect the dots and what do we end up with? It was a secret admission by Elizabeth of the male pseudonym under which she authored the plays of "Shakespeare".
 

honestrosewater

Gold Member
2,071
5
Okay, here is an example of what I consider the difference between reliable evidence and pure speculation.

In the thread https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=27328:

Les Sleeth said:
Ahhhh, so that's what you meant. In that case, let's get those philosophers to the wheel.
Now, to what wheel is Les referring? I could speculate the he was referring to the wheel they used to strap people to for torturing during the middle ages. This makes sense, but is pure speculation.

Reliable evidence, however, would be the previous post in the same thread:
jcsd said:
All philosophers should eb rounded up and made to pull a big wheel around like the one in Conan the Babarian.
That is the difference. One explanation is pure speculation, the other is reliable evidence. And, in the face of reliable evidence, I think pure speculation must be abandoned. Evidence beats speculation, IMO.

Of course, I don't *know* what was in Les's mind, so I must make an assumption. But all assumptions are not equal, and I can still make the distinction of how *reasonable* an assumption is.

More in a bit.
 
Last edited:
Ok. We can argue on what a reasonable assumption is etc ... and explore the boundaries of our definitions etc ... It will get us nowhere unless we happen to agree. Where we differ on reasonability - we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think it'd be better to stick to the specifics when possible.

Sticking to specifics means as you said looking at the evidence or of lack thereof.

Thank you for your analogy. If you can apply it to the information I have provided above - then please do so.

Very simple thing I'm saying here - if you have an objection to a piece of information above - then state your objection to it by saying what you find objectionable. If you say a piece of information is unreliable - state your reason. Surely you can't expect me to agree with your views if you don't provide reasons for them.
 

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