Airplane 'Photo Op' Angers 9/11 Witnesses

[Cyrus]

You're one of the best nitpickers I've ever witnessed, Cyrus. I'm simply your protege.

- Warren

I love you too, warren.

 

[Phrak]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

I think that sums it up. Given the available information, for many, the intelligent action is flight. The cost of flight is a half hour of work.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes.

Your answer is tantamount to reserving your opinion to play it out whenver and however it suits you.

That's just plain wrong. When I saw it on TV, my first thought was that the terrorists had read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor", where a rogue foreign pilot flies a 747 into the Capital building.

Yah well, James Bond foiled an attempt to wipe out humans on Earth in Moonraker ,but most of us distinguish between fantastical fiction and real-life events.

[Il]Logic like this leads to people curled up in the fetal position under the stairs in their basements for days on end. It is an argument in favor of mental breakdown.

No, it's an argument in favour of no longer being complacent in our towers (ivory or otherwise) and in favour of ensuring we have a place to go when fighter jets chase airliners over the Manhattan skyline.


There's really no point in arguing this point much further. As I've said: anyone can judge after-the-fact from their armchair. Talk's cheap.

 

[chroot]

That SAME system, which could send out messages that said, "The airplane is AF-1, please forgive us for the inconvenience".

Say, like the EAS? The one that was not used?

I think the government should tread its citizens like adults and educate them specifically so these things don't happen.

Okay, great. Unfortunately, no such education has occurred, or has worked. I ask you again:

Should the government relate to its citizens as they actually are, or as if they have had some kind of education that has never been offered, or has not worked?

because I've seen them intercept an actual aircraft before.

That puts you into an incredibly small minority. Should the government relate to its citizens as though they all share your experience and education, or should they relate to them as they actually are?

So, no, I wouldn't "run like a school girl" out of the office.

This has nothing to do with you, an individual. Please answer my questions about the stance you feel that governments should take towards their citizens.

- Warren

 

[Phrak]

(That's not one word)

It looks pretty scary place to me maybe because everyone wears same color and looks like hell lot of people. It would be pretty bad if someone shouts fire/bomb in these like places. And there have been many incidents where lots of people killed from stampedes (not all occurred at Mecca though).
Mecca one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1203108.stm


Let's say large number of people were gathered in here and this airplane comes. I am sure it would have devastating if everyone started running.

I thought it was common knowledge.

Sometimes they trample each other to death trying to get closer to the 'holy' meteor hide inside the big, holy box in the middle. Sometimes they trample each other getting to and from the holy box.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1135316.html"

 

[OAQfirst]

And that goes back to the government's responsibility of giving out information so people will know what to look for in a real life scenario of something going wrong.

On that note, is this information available? And is there risk of terrorists exploiting it? Because I, too, would like to know what to look for. I have some ideas, but I'm sure to be wrong more often than not.

Side note: Shortly after 9/11, feds went to Hollywood writers to see what terrorist scenarios they could conjure up as a discovery process; what possibilities exist that they never thought of. So, I guess the government doesn't always know, either. Thus, I hope any such information would today be much more reliable assuming that they've studied terrorism sufficiently since.

 

[Cyrus]

I thought it was common knowledge.

Sometimes they trample each other to death trying to get closer to the 'holy' meteor hide inside the big holy box in the middle. Sometimes they trample each other getting to and from the holy meteor.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1135316.html"

Wow, I had no idea that they did that! I thought they did that prayer on their carpets in a circle and walked around it. I didn't know they trample each other!

 

[russ_watters]

Your answer is tantamount to reserving your opinion to play it out however it suits you.

You missed the humor, Dave. The response was: panic=stupid.

I'm most certainly not one to be wishy-washy about my opinions. I am quite stronly opinionated.

Yah well, James Bond foiled an attempt to wipe out humans on Earth in Moonraker ,but most of us distinguish between fantastical fiction and real-life events.

Um hm. So you're saying that one who read Debt of Honor and considered it as far fetched as Moonraker would have - in the 20/20 hindsight - been correct? In any case, you said: "it simply had never occurred to anyone to think that anyone would use a commerical jet liner as a missile to take down a building" and that is still quite clearly wrong. Clearly it occurred to Tom Clancy and clearly fans of his (ie, me) put a lot of stock in the realism of his scenarios. It is worth noting that the government and military also put a lot of stock in his scenarios: they pay him for exactly that type of thinking. Too bad they just weren't paying attention this time.

 

[russ_watters]

*blinks*

Are you suggesting that the public reaction of fear and upset is... well... nonexistent? I mean, I watched a few videos of this flight and judging by the comments and the, "OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!" coffee table chit chat in the background, I'd say they decided that it didn't quite look right.

Now you're just not following the argument. I know there was panic. I'm arguing the panic was stupid/wrong. You said:

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion. [the conclusion that there was no threat]

But that's the point: they reached the conclusion that there was a threat and they did it because they were stupid/irrational!

They're not mind readers. All they know is something isn't right and they're not in a good position to spell out possibilities.

Agreed. In my logic, that equates to stupid because:

Maybe there's a struggle in the cockpit and someone is trying to keep the plane in flight. Who can guess what is going on.

...that is irrational.

But you just can not expect people to have no concerns about a low-flying plane in their city that sticks out like this. It was not an ordinary event. They know their sky well enough to see that, and they didn't know what was going on, as demonstrated by the calls to emergency services. They're not going to spend some time in thought on terrorist tactics or just why it hasn't taken the plunge yet; their minds were probably front and center on reaction. I know mine would be.

I agree that this was not an ordinary event. I agree that we can expect people to react this way. I'm simply saying that these people were stupid and I don't have a lot of patience for stupidity.

 

[russ_watters]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

Here's the simple fact: You would all run.

Actually, I did respond to that before, but here it is again: No, warren, I wouldn't run. I don't run when I hear a fire alarm, I don't run when I hear a car backfire, and I wouldn't run if I heard someone say those words you put in italics. I'm not a sheep.

Furthermore, that video of the Japanese comedy show proves that not everyone is a sheep. Maybe it is only 1%, but I'm quite certain I am in that 1%.

You would be stupid not to. You don't have time to think about whether or not the guy who yelled knows a Cessna from a Boeing.

Hurry! Buy now! This sale won't last!

Just because you don't have time to figure out if there is a threat doesn't mean you should assume there is. That's basically the definition of gullibility.

 

[OAQfirst]

Now you're just not following the argument. I know there was panic. I'm arguing the panic was stupid/wrong.

Oh no. I'm following it precisely. It's where you wrote way back in post #35 that it annoys you, that this is where I follow from. What I'm getting at is how natural their reactions were, and given the circumstances how understandable as well. Be annoyed all you want. This is how the herd reacts and nothing is going to change that as the last few thousand years have proven. I suppose you'd stand by your window and watch all those people running down the streets, possibly trampling a few here and there, all the while shaking your head and declaring them as "stupid." I'm with you on this. I really am. Now then, with that in mind, I'd still head out the door with everyone else, and I wouldn't care what anyone thought of me. Call me stupid, but in that case I am still scared.

 

[russ_watters]

Say, like the EAS? The one that was not used?

- Warren

I won't speak for Cyrus, but just to clarify my position, warren, I'm not saying the government was right, I'm only saying the people were wrong. The two are not required to be paired: ie, the government was also wrong here. The government was wrong for underestimating how stupid people are. They were also wrong for wasting my money.

 

[chroot]

I'm simply saying that these people were stupid

Why bother posting if this is really all you have to say?

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

I won't speak for Cyrus, but just to clarify my position, warren, I'm not saying the government was right, I'm only saying the people were wrong. The two are not required to be paired: ie, the government was also wrong here. The government was wrong for underestimating how stupid people are. They were also wrong for wasting my money.

Yes, I 100% agree with this statement.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh no. I'm following it precisely.

Then please explain exactly what you meant by this in post 71:

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion.

...which was a response to this:

Just what I said: that it isn't trying to find the Empire State Building - that after a half hour it isn't in imminent danger of crashing into anything.

People did stand and gawk in fear at the circling but not crashing plane for many minutes. They did reach the conclusion that I said they did.

Anyway...

It's where you wrote way back in post #35 that it annoys you, that this is where I follow from. What I'm getting at is how natural their reactions were, and given the circumstances how understandable as well. Be annoyed all you want. This is how the herd reacts and nothing is going to change that as the last few thousand years have proven. I suppose you'd stand by your window and watch all those people running down the streets, possibly trampling a few here and there, all the while shaking your head and declaring them as "stupid." I'm with you on this. I really am. Now then, with that in mind, I'd still head out the door with everyone else, and I wouldn't care what anyone thought of me. Call me stupid, but in that case I am still scared.

Well good luck with that! I know they are free to be stupid and I prefer not to be. Consider me the disappointed parent who knows his kids could do better.

 

[lisab]

Actually, I did respond to that before, but here it is again: No, warren, I wouldn't run. I don't run when I hear a fire alarm, I don't run when I hear a car backfire, and I wouldn't run if I heard someone say those words you put in italics. I'm not a sheep.

Well, I guess you'd be one of those who died on the upper floors of World Trade Center's South Tower, then.

 

[russ_watters]

Why bother posting if this is really all you have to say?

- Warren

Lol, warren, I think you miss the point of "general discussion" and this thread! The entire point is people expressing opinions about the how/why, good/bad, right/wrong of the event. For this story, the reaction to the event is most of the story, so my comments were about the reaction to the event.

 

[chroot]

The entire point is people expressing opinions about the how/why, good/bad, right/wrong of the event.

Please supply the abstract of a peer-reviewed journal article supporting your position with at least a 95% confidence interval.



- Warren

 

[russ_watters]

Well, I guess you'd be one of those who died on the upper floors of World Trade Center's South Tower, then.

You mean one of the everyone who died in the upper floors? That's an important part of the point here that has been lost: panic didn't save anyone on 9/11. Virtually everyone who worked above the crash site of the first building died and virtually everyone who worked below lived. People did not even have time to take panic'd actions on 911. Even if they were right (in either case) about this being a terrorist attack, panic'd action still isn't a useful response.

I'll be more blunt: panic is never an appropriate response to a crisis.
[edit] And I'll go further to say that this is an important lesson that should be used in disaster preparedness training and public relations - for the specific purpose of combatting the response people had.

 

[russ_watters]

Please supply the abstract of a peer-reviewed journal article supporting your position with at least a 95% confidence interval.



- Warren

I think you should reread what you just quoted because you missed an important word in that sentence.

[edit] Meh, or just follow your own directive before saying I should follow it.

 

[OAQfirst]

Then please explain exactly what you meant by this in post 71

Back up a few and:

Wouldn't even a relatively dumb person conclude after just a couple of minutes of flying around that the plane wasn't trying to fly into the Empire State Building?

Based on their reactions, no. After a few minutes, they did not make that conclusion. Instead, they evacuated, they called 911, they took off.

 

[chroot]

You know, I guess I used to hold the elitist position that most people (excluding myself, of course) are "dumb," but I can't help noticing that our collective instincts have served us well enough to make us the world's most prolific and intelligent species. However contrary our instincts may seem to our rational thinking, they are probably deserve more credit for our successes.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Meh, or just follow your own directive before saying I should follow it.

Um... that was a joke...

- Warren

 

[mheslep]

Photoshop would have been cheaper, eh?

And more to the point:

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm not a sheep.

I think you doth protest too much. I think you're trying to convince yourself that you're superior to the rest of the world, whom you deem to be idiots.

 

[lisab]

You mean one of the everyone who died in the upper floors? That's an important part of the point here that has been lost: panic didn't save anyone on 9/11. Virtually everyone who worked above the crash site of the first building died and virtually everyone who worked below lived. People did not even have time to take panic'd actions on 911. Even if they were right (in either case) about this being a terrorist attack, panic'd action still isn't a useful response.

I'll be more blunt: panic is never an appropriate response to a crisis.
[edit] And I'll go further to say that this is an important lesson that should be used in disaster preparedness training and public relations - for the specific purpose of combatting the response people had.

I'm not advocating panic, lol! But I applaud your denunciation of panicking .

I said the South Tower...it was the second one hit. Lots of folks who died in the second tower knew a plane had hit the first tower but stayed at their desks, even though there was ample time to evacuate. Perhaps they were thinking, I'm not leaving...I'm not a sheep.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm not advocating panic, lol! But I applaud your denunciation of panicking .

I said the South Tower...it was the second one hit. Lots of folks who died in the second tower knew a plane had hit the first tower but stayed at their desks, even though there was ample time to evacuate. Perhaps they were thinking, I'm not leaving...I'm not a sheep.

That's kinda like comparing sitting in your home watching tv while your neighbours house is on fire to sitting and watching tv when you hear the fire engine pass your house.

 

[Cyrus]

I think you doth protest too much. I think you're trying to convince yourself that you're superior to the rest of the world, whom you deem to be idiots.

Dave, seriously. "superior to the rest of the world"....?

 

[JasonRox]

Dave, seriously. "superior to the rest of the world"....?

So, you're saying if you met me, and then I pulled a switch blade out and put it right to your face that you'd be thinking... "It's Jason. He's showing me the switch blade. That's all. Friendly guy."

I would not let a friend put a switch blade to my face even if he is really just showing it. He's crossing my boundaries clearly.

That's exactly what happened in NYC. The photo-op crossed the boundaries of the city.

Before that 9/11 it would be fine, but now the boundaries have expanded.

Note: I'm not saying panicking is justified at all. Showing concern is OBVIOUSLY justified.

 

[DaveC426913]

So, you're saying if you met me, and then I pulled a switch blade out and put it right to your face that you'd be thinking... "It's Jason. He's showing me the switch blade. That's all. Friendly guy."

I have no idea where this is coming from. I think you missed the thread. I'm telling Russ that his derision towards people's behviour is a sign that he's trying to convince himself that he's superior to those he deems sheep. I find this to be a very common attiude in this day and age, similar to how we get our 30 second "news bytes" and assume we have enough information to pass judgement as if we were there.

Dave, seriously. "superior to the rest of the world"....?

Sorry.

Superior all the "sheep" that live in downtown New York.