News American School Makes Boy Remove American Flag From His Bicycle

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The discussion centers around a school incident where a student was asked to remove an American flag from his bike, sparking debates about constitutional rights and school policies. Concerns were raised about educators being out of touch and prioritizing student complaints over constitutional protections, particularly the First Amendment. The ban on flags was reportedly implemented to prevent racial tensions after a Cinco de Mayo incident involving the Mexican flag. Participants argue that such bans infringe on national identity and expression, and that the school should not censor students based on complaints without substantial justification. The conversation reflects broader issues of free speech, cultural identity, and the role of schools in managing expression.
  • #61
Evo said:
You think schools were more lenient in Ben's time? The schoolmaster probably would have beaten the kid with a stick or boxed his ears for causing trouble.

We're talking about child safety on school grounds here, let's keep it about the actual circumstances please.

You should reread your response.

You're suggesting that if kid A threatened kid B with physical violence the response of the schoolmaster would be to beat kid B so kid A wouldn't have to? (Actually, I could imagine a scenario where the schoolmaster would tell kid A to quit complaining and to stick up for himself, but that probably wouldn't be a politically correct response today, either. Irrelevant, but did they even have bicycles in Ben Franklin's time?)

Would punishing the victim be acceptable if the victim were a woman lodging a sexual harrassment complaint? In other words, would simply transferring the woman to a new workplace so she wouldn't have contact with the sexual harrasser be a sufficient solution?
 
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  • #62
Evo said:
You do know about the history behind this, the flag problem at the school on Cinco de Mayo that caused the ban? There was a large group involved, that there was no single "identified" threat to remove?

Actually, the large group didn't threaten the Cinco de Mayo celebrators. They wore American flag T-shirts as a counter-statement. Regardless of the lameness of protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration, it wasn't a particularly disruptive protest.

(Protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration is more or less the equivalent of protesting a St Patrick's Day celebration. Why would a person take offense at either celebration (unless they were members of MADD, perhaps) - especially to the point of protesting it?)
 
  • #63
I agree with dranking and bobg on what they have said.

The school is avoiding the real issue here. Which is bullying and threatening behaviour.

I agree, make it safe for the kid, but punishing the victim isn't the way to go about it.

Nowhere else in life would we accept this. As bobg said, shifting the woman who makes a sexual harrassment complaint to another department and ignoring the person who caused the problem is wrong.

drankin said:
So and so is offended and may become voilent by a childs hairdo, ban the hairdo?

Exactly, it's showing people that this behaviour is an acceptable way to get their own way. Completely wrong on so many levels.
 
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  • #64
A complaint is made about an american flag on a bicycle and it is immediately slated for removal... a kid wears a shirt with the mexican flag on it and if anyone dares say anything about it we have an international incident on our hands and are trying to deny a child's cultural heritage.

W T F :cry:
 
  • #65
Mech_Engineer said:
A complaint is made about an american flag on a bicycle and it is immediately slated for removal... a kid wears a shirt with the mexican flag on it and if anyone dares say anything about it we have an international incident on our hands and are trying to deny a child's cultural heritage.

W T F :cry:

Precisely.

As with most laws supposedly there to protect groups of people, whether they are for race, religion, sex etc. They are all bias in some way.
 
  • #66
jarednjames said:
Precisely.

As with most laws supposedly there to protect groups of people, whether they are for race, religion, sex etc. They are all bias in some way.

It seems to me the civil liberties of immigrants (and even citizens of other countries) are being "protected" at the price of our own... I can't believe some of the ridiculous stuff that is done today in the name of political correctness.
 
  • #67
BobG said:
You should reread your response.

You're suggesting that if kid A threatened kid B with physical violence the response of the schoolmaster would be to beat kid B so kid A wouldn't have to? (Actually, I could imagine a scenario where the schoolmaster would tell kid A to quit complaining and to stick up for himself, but that probably wouldn't be a politically correct response today, either. Irrelevant, but did they even have bicycles in Ben Franklin's time?)

Would punishing the victim be acceptable if the victim were a woman lodging a sexual harrassment complaint? In other words, would simply transferring the woman to a new workplace so she wouldn't have contact with the sexual harrasser be a sufficient solution?
We're talking about kid B breaking a school rule back then. Kid B would be the one getting the punishment. Just showing him that bringing Benjamin Franklin into this thread doesn't back up what he's trying to say.
 
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  • #68
Evo said:
You think schools were more lenient in Ben's time? The schoolmaster probably would have beaten the kid with a stick or boxed his ears for causing trouble.

We're talking about child safety on school grounds here, let's keep it about the actual circumstances please.
The post I responded to referred also to governments reaction to 911.

As far as this kid's safety goes, prohibiting his display of the flag for that reason is despicable, and a victory to bullies everywhere, even if it doesn't directly violate anyone's rights.

Schools might as well force kids to wedgie themselves to save the bullies the trouble, and for their own safety.
BobG said:
Irrelevant, but did they even have bicycles in Ben Franklin's time?)
No, but equally irrelevantly, they did have tricycles.
 
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  • #69
Pupil: "Sir, Joe's bullying me. He steals my lunch money everyday and threatens to beat me up if I don't give it to him."

Teacher: "Well, I think it's best if I take your lunch money and let your parents know of the problem and see if they want you to change schools. Problem solved."
 
  • #70
Mech_Engineer said:
A complaint is made about an american flag on a bicycle and it is immediately slated for removal... a kid wears a shirt with the mexican flag on it and if anyone dares say anything about it we have an international incident on our hands and are trying to deny a child's cultural heritage.

W T F :cry:

Did the latter actually occur? And do you have a reference to that incident?

Or are you actually referring to last Spring's http://www.ktvu.com/news/23491978/detail.html , but didn't remember what actually happened?

There is one very significant detail that is common to both controversies: both schools felt their reaction (ordering the removal of the flag) was a mistake. In fact, it's surprising the school in the Veteran's Day controversy remembered the controversy part of the Cinco de Mayo incident while overlooking the school's regretting it's actions.
 
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  • #71
Al68 said:
As far as this kid's safety goes, prohibiting his display of the flag for that reason is despicable, and a victory to bullies everywhere, even if it doesn't directly violate anyone's rights.
We'll agree to disagree then, because nothing is more important than my child's safety, nothing.
 
  • #72
Evo said:
We'll agree to disagree then, because nothing is more important than my child's safety, nothing.

The problem isn't just the child's safety, I want to know what scum is complaining about a display of the American flag, and why civil liberties groups aren't up in arms about it? What has become of our country when immigrants can threaten harm to anyone that displays patriotism, and we cave into it?!
 
  • #73
Mech_Engineer said:
The problem isn't just the child's safety, I want to know what scum is complaining about a display of the American flag, and why civil liberties groups aren't up in arms about it? What has become of our country when immigrants can threaten harm to anyone that displays patriotism, and we cave into it?!
Immigrant scum? Is this the reason Fox news made such a big deal of it? Is this why people are outraged? Just curious.
 
  • #74
Evo said:
Immigrant scum?

Well those two terms were in different sentences but I may be getting a bit wound up. Let me put it this way- who it teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism?
 
  • #75
Evo said:
We'll agree to disagree then, because nothing is more important than my child's safety, nothing.

I agree with you, but you have to realize what angle people are talking about here.

Removing the flag doesn't remove the problem. They are leaving the bullies in place who used violence to get their own way.

This is not a good example to set.

The first action should be the protection of your child, if it is an immediate threat get them out of the situation. They should then remove the problem child and allow your child to go back to their normal routine.

Are you honestly saying the school should punish your child and not the bullies? That your child should sacrifice something because someone is threatening violence if they don't get their own way?
That sort of behaviour isn't acceptable and shouldn't be tolerated.

What I'm seeing from you is a person who would rather see their child stripped of any freedoms they have, within their own country, to ensure they don't offend anyone else. This is something I cannot support nor agree with.
 
  • #76
Mech_Engineer said:
The problem isn't just the child's safety, I want to know what scum is complaining about a display of the American flag, and why civil liberties groups aren't up in arms about it? What has become of our country when immigrants can threaten harm to anyone that displays patriotism, and we cave into it?!

How do you know it was an immigrant? My ex and her family are pretty passionate about St Patrick's Day and I think their great grandfather was the immigrant. In fact, they go so far as to yell supportive cheers and sing songs for terrorist organizations and root them on in recovering Ireland's "Fourth Green Field". (Personally, I think they really do all that just as a celebration of getting drunk, but who am I to comment about their true passions.)

(And, for the record, I'm not actually anti-Irish. In fact, I guess I'm not really anti-ex's family, even though there are some things about them that are really, really annoying.)
 
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  • #77
Evo said:
We'll agree to disagree then, because nothing is more important than my child's safety, nothing.
Was that an implied ad hominem attack, Evo? It must be because you used the word "because", indicating that you are claiming that is the reason we disagree.

Are implied personal insults OK per forum rules?
 
  • #78
jarednjames said:
Pupil: "Sir, Joe's bullying me. He steals my lunch money everyday and threatens to beat me up if I don't give it to him."

Teacher: "Well, I think it's best if I take your lunch money and let your parents know of the problem and see if they want you to change schools. Problem solved."

Al68 said:
...
As far as this kid's safety goes, prohibiting his display of the flag for that reason is despicable, and a victory to bullies everywhere, even if it doesn't directly violate anyone's rights.

Schools might as well force kids to wedgie themselves to save the bullies the trouble.

Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.
 
  • #79
Mech_Engineer said:
Well those two terms were in different sentences but I may be getting a bit wound up. Let me put it this way- who it teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism?
I thought you might be a bit worked up. :smile:

I think the original Cinco de Mayo incident was handled wrong. But I understand the overreaction for this kid's safety and the school reconsidered and retracted. No different than what happened with my daughter's shirt. It was stupid, and the rules were changed.
 
  • #80
Dembadon said:
Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.

With all due respect I was using a touch of sarcasm there. Outlining how ridiculous the proposal of punishing the innocent is.

Any person threatening violent behaviour towards another should be removed. Problem solved. Removing the flag and leaving the violent person in place simply shifts the problem to another day when the person becomes 'offended' by someone else's actions.

You are inhabiting the US, you abide by their laws and benefit from their countries assets and facilities. You do not move there to gain all of this and then demand people already there change their ways to accommodate you. You can be as patriotic to your own country as you like, but don't you dare be offended when someone shows support for their country and you definitely have no grounds to complain of someone wearing the flag of the country you are inhabiting. If you don't like it, leave. If you are going to use violence to try and get your own way you should be thrown out.

I know it sounds exceptionally brutal but frankly I'm sick of this "we should accommodate everyone" approach being taken recently, especially in the UK. It is the current residents who are suffering because the government is ignoring what they want and going straight to the needs of immigrants.
 
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  • #81
Al68 said:
Was that an implied ad hominem attack, Evo? It must be because you used the word "because", indicating that you are claiming that is the reason we disagree.

Are implied personal insults OK per forum rules?
Nope. I was sincerely saying that we disagree and that's fine, my child is of utmost importance to me and there is no point in arguing. Don't try to make things up that don't exist, and don't try to put words in my mouth that aren't there. Doing what you just did, twisting something around and making false accusations is not okay per forum rules though.
 
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  • #82
BobG said:
How do you know it was an immigrant?

You're right, I shouldn't have assumed the complaint was made by a child immigrant. Still I ask again- who is teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism? Are there really American kids offended and disgusted by the sight of their own flag?!

BobG said:
My ex and her family are pretty passionate about St Patrick's Day and I think their great grandfather was the immigrant. In fact, they go so far as to yell supportive cheers and sing songs for terrorist organizations and root them on in recovering Ireland's "Fourth Green Field". (Personally, I think they really do all that just as a celebration of getting drunk, but who am I to comment about their true passions.)

(And, for the record, I'm not actually anti-Irish. In fact, I guess I'm not really anti-ex's family, even though there are some things about them that are really, really annoying.)


And your family is what makes America great. BUT, I'll bet they don't complain (and/or threaten violence) when an American flag is displayed on a bicycle or a shirt... By the same token I'm not making threats when I see a four-leaf clover on St. Patrick's day!

Something is festering at the heart of our society, and I want to know what it is!
 
  • #83
Dembadon said:
Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.
I meant the wedgie as a metaphor for the school telling the kid he can't display the flag, not as an example of a threat to the kid's safety. Although a wedgie can be pretty dangerous.:eek:
 
  • #84
Rather than take the flag away from a single student - perhaps they should hand out flags to all of the students and teach them about it's history and symbolism. A great many Americans have given their lives to defend the Red, White, and Blue.
 
  • #85
Evo said:
Nope. I was sincerely saying that we disagree and that's fine, my child is of utmost importance to me and there is no point in arguing. Don't try to make things up that don't exist, and don't try to put words in my mouth that aren't there.
OK, I must have completely misconstrued your post. You used the word "because" to indicate that the fact that your child's safety is important to you is completely unrelated to the reason we disagree.

Sorry for "making up something that doesn't exist". My bad.
Doing what you just did, twisting something around and making false accusations is not okay per forum rules though.
Sorry I violated forum rules by construing the word "because" to mean something other than a completely unrelated remark.
 
  • #86
WhoWee said:
Rather than take the flag away from a single student - perhaps they should hand out flags to all of the students and teach them about it's history and symbolism. A great many Americans have given their lives to defend the Red, White, and Blue.
Yeah. Or maybe have a big flag in front of the school, in the hallways, and in each classroom. What a novel idea.
 
  • #87
Al68 said:
OK, I must have completely misconstrued your post. You used the word "because" to indicate that the fact that your child's safety is important to you is completely unrelated to the reason we disagree.

Sorry for "making up something that doesn't exist". My bad.Sorry I violated forum rules by construing the word "because" to mean something other than a completely unrelated remark.
:smile: Finally, someone understands how my mind works!
 
  • #88
Al68 said:
Yeah. Or maybe have a big flag in front of the school, in the hallways, and in each classroom. What a novel idea.

By giving each child their own personal flag, they can take ownership and have an opportunity to participate in an American tradition. Hopefully, when/if they take it home, their parents will respond in a positive manner.
 
  • #89
Mech_Engineer said:
You're right, I shouldn't have assumed the complaint was made by a child immigrant. Still I ask again- who is teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism? Are there really American kids offended and disgusted by the sight of their own flag?!




And your family is what makes America great. BUT, I'll bet they don't complain (and/or threaten violence) when an American flag is displayed on a bicycle or a shirt... By the same token I'm not making threats when I see a four-leaf clover on St. Patrick's day!

Something is festering at the heart of our society, and I want to know what it is!

Personally, I think I might be twice as excited by Cinco de Mayo celebrations as I am about St Patrick's Day celebration, but I'd need a calculator to be sure. The grandchild is about 25% (or less) Mexican descent and, 12.5% (or less) Irish descent. Or does the fact that I have four kids that are 25% (or less) Irish descent mean I should be more excited by St Patrick's Day? But then how do I figure in the fact that the ex is 50% Irish and, well, she's an ex for a reason?

And when it comes to my personal ancestory, I need a calculator and perhaps a rule book (do I count my Guernsey ancestors as being their own nationality, or do I count them as French since all of them came to Guernsey Island from Normandy; and what do I do about the whole Shclesswig-Holstein thing since sometimes it belonged to Denmark and sometimes it belonged to Germany?)

Everything has context. In the Cinco de Mayo controversy, the students, themselves, told people they were wearing the American flag T-shirts as a protest against the Cinco de Mayo celebration. The flags on the T-shirt weren't the problem per se, although a purist might mention that the student's motivation for wearing the flag wasn't in line with the traditional reasons people display the flag. Likewise, removing the T-shirts wasn't really the appropriate solution.

The original root issue was protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration. Protesting the Cinco de Mayo celebrations were a matter of free speech, but free speech doesn't mean the people you insulted don't have the their own right to voice their opinion about your protest. Unless tempers flared to the point of violence erupting, then the school really didn't need to discipline anyone.
 
  • #90
BobG said:
The original root issue was protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration. Protesting the Cinco de Mayo celebrations were a matter of free speech, but free speech doesn't mean the people you insulted don't have the their own right to voice their opinion about your protest. Unless tempers flared to the point of violence erupting, then the school really didn't need to discipline anyone.

The most confusing part of it all- the kids were "insulted" at other kids wearing american flags during cinco de mayo while they were wearing mexican flag memorabilia, a practice which is frowned upon IN MEXICO!
 

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