American School Makes Boy Remove American Flag From His Bicycle

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  • #76
BobG
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The problem isn't just the child's safety, I want to know what scum is complaining about a display of the American flag, and why civil liberties groups aren't up in arms about it? What has become of our country when immigrants can threaten harm to anyone that displays patriotism, and we cave in to it?!

How do you know it was an immigrant? My ex and her family are pretty passionate about St Patrick's Day and I think their great grandfather was the immigrant. In fact, they go so far as to yell supportive cheers and sing songs for terrorist organizations and root them on in recovering Ireland's "Fourth Green Field". (Personally, I think they really do all that just as a celebration of getting drunk, but who am I to comment about their true passions.)

(And, for the record, I'm not actually anti-Irish. In fact, I guess I'm not really anti-ex's family, even though there are some things about them that are really, really annoying.)
 
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  • #77
Al68
We'll agree to disagree then, because nothing is more important than my child's safety, nothing.
Was that an implied ad hominem attack, Evo? It must be because you used the word "because", indicating that you are claiming that is the reason we disagree.

Are implied personal insults OK per forum rules?
 
  • #78
Dembadon
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Pupil: "Sir, Joe's bullying me. He steals my lunch money everyday and threatens to beat me up if I don't give it to him."

Teacher: "Well, I think it's best if I take your lunch money and let your parents know of the problem and see if they want you to change schools. Problem solved."

...
As far as this kid's safety goes, prohibiting his display of the flag for that reason is despicable, and a victory to bullies everywhere, even if it doesn't directly violate anyone's rights.

Schools might as well force kids to wedgie themselves to save the bullies the trouble.

Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.
 
  • #79
Evo
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Well those two terms were in different sentences but I may be getting a bit wound up. Let me put it this way- who it teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism?
I thought you might be a bit worked up. :smile:

I think the original Cinco de Mayo incident was handled wrong. But I understand the overreaction for this kid's safety and the school reconsidered and retracted. No different than what happened with my daughter's shirt. It was stupid, and the rules were changed.
 
  • #80
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Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.

With all due respect I was using a touch of sarcasm there. Outlining how ridiculous the proposal of punishing the innocent is.

Any person threatening violent behaviour towards another should be removed. Problem solved. Removing the flag and leaving the violent person in place simply shifts the problem to another day when the person becomes 'offended' by someone else's actions.

You are inhabiting the US, you abide by their laws and benefit from their countries assets and facilities. You do not move there to gain all of this and then demand people already there change their ways to accommodate you. You can be as patriotic to your own country as you like, but don't you dare be offended when someone shows support for their country and you definitely have no grounds to complain of someone wearing the flag of the country you are inhabiting. If you don't like it, leave. If you are going to use violence to try and get your own way you should be thrown out.

I know it sounds exceptionally brutal but frankly I'm sick of this "we should accommodate everyone" approach being taken recently, especially in the UK. It is the current residents who are suffering because the government is ignoring what they want and going straight to the needs of immigrants.
 
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  • #81
Evo
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Was that an implied ad hominem attack, Evo? It must be because you used the word "because", indicating that you are claiming that is the reason we disagree.

Are implied personal insults OK per forum rules?
Nope. I was sincerely saying that we disagree and that's fine, my child is of utmost importance to me and there is no point in arguing. Don't try to make things up that don't exist, and don't try to put words in my mouth that aren't there. Doing what you just did, twisting something around and making false accusations is not okay per forum rules though.
 
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  • #82
Mech_Engineer
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How do you know it was an immigrant?

You're right, I shouldn't have assumed the complaint was made by a child immigrant. Still I ask again- who is teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism? Are there really American kids offended and disgusted by the sight of their own flag?!

My ex and her family are pretty passionate about St Patrick's Day and I think their great grandfather was the immigrant. In fact, they go so far as to yell supportive cheers and sing songs for terrorist organizations and root them on in recovering Ireland's "Fourth Green Field". (Personally, I think they really do all that just as a celebration of getting drunk, but who am I to comment about their true passions.)

(And, for the record, I'm not actually anti-Irish. In fact, I guess I'm not really anti-ex's family, even though there are some things about them that are really, really annoying.)


And your family is what makes America great. BUT, I'll bet they don't complain (and/or threaten violence) when an American flag is displayed on a bicycle or a shirt... By the same token I'm not making threats when I see a four-leaf clover on St. Patrick's day!

Something is festering at the heart of our society, and I want to know what it is!
 
  • #83
Al68
Not all issues that arise from racial tension are analogous to wedgies and/or stolen lunch money. Some can result in severe injuries or death, even at the middle school level. Thirteen-year-olds are capable of extremely dangerous behavior.

We can't assume anything about the seriousness of the racial tension issues because the article doesn't give enough information.

Losing one's lunch money or receiving a wedgie isn't the worst thing that could happen in a situation like this, and it would be foolish to assume so.
I meant the wedgie as a metaphor for the school telling the kid he can't display the flag, not as an example of a threat to the kid's safety. Although a wedgie can be pretty dangerous.:eek:
 
  • #84
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Rather than take the flag away from a single student - perhaps they should hand out flags to all of the students and teach them about it's history and symbolism. A great many Americans have given their lives to defend the Red, White, and Blue.
 
  • #85
Al68
Nope. I was sincerely saying that we disagree and that's fine, my child is of utmost importance to me and there is no point in arguing. Don't try to make things up that don't exist, and don't try to put words in my mouth that aren't there.
OK, I must have completely misconstrued your post. You used the word "because" to indicate that the fact that your child's safety is important to you is completely unrelated to the reason we disagree.

Sorry for "making up something that doesn't exist". My bad.
Doing what you just did, twisting something around and making false accusations is not okay per forum rules though.
Sorry I violated forum rules by construing the word "because" to mean something other than a completely unrelated remark.
 
  • #86
Al68
Rather than take the flag away from a single student - perhaps they should hand out flags to all of the students and teach them about it's history and symbolism. A great many Americans have given their lives to defend the Red, White, and Blue.
Yeah. Or maybe have a big flag in front of the school, in the hallways, and in each classroom. What a novel idea.
 
  • #87
Evo
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OK, I must have completely misconstrued your post. You used the word "because" to indicate that the fact that your child's safety is important to you is completely unrelated to the reason we disagree.

Sorry for "making up something that doesn't exist". My bad.Sorry I violated forum rules by construing the word "because" to mean something other than a completely unrelated remark.
:smile: Finally, someone understands how my mind works!
 
  • #88
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Yeah. Or maybe have a big flag in front of the school, in the hallways, and in each classroom. What a novel idea.

By giving each child their own personal flag, they can take ownership and have an opportunity to participate in an American tradition. Hopefully, when/if they take it home, their parents will respond in a positive manner.
 
  • #89
BobG
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You're right, I shouldn't have assumed the complaint was made by a child immigrant. Still I ask again- who is teaching kids they should be offended and threaten violence when they see an act of American patriotism? Are there really American kids offended and disgusted by the sight of their own flag?!




And your family is what makes America great. BUT, I'll bet they don't complain (and/or threaten violence) when an American flag is displayed on a bicycle or a shirt... By the same token I'm not making threats when I see a four-leaf clover on St. Patrick's day!

Something is festering at the heart of our society, and I want to know what it is!

Personally, I think I might be twice as excited by Cinco de Mayo celebrations as I am about St Patrick's Day celebration, but I'd need a calculator to be sure. The grandchild is about 25% (or less) Mexican descent and, 12.5% (or less) Irish descent. Or does the fact that I have four kids that are 25% (or less) Irish descent mean I should be more excited by St Patrick's Day? But then how do I figure in the fact that the ex is 50% Irish and, well, she's an ex for a reason?

And when it comes to my personal ancestory, I need a calculator and perhaps a rule book (do I count my Guernsey ancestors as being their own nationality, or do I count them as French since all of them came to Guernsey Island from Normandy; and what do I do about the whole Shclesswig-Holstein thing since sometimes it belonged to Denmark and sometimes it belonged to Germany?)

Everything has context. In the Cinco de Mayo controversy, the students, themselves, told people they were wearing the American flag T-shirts as a protest against the Cinco de Mayo celebration. The flags on the T-shirt weren't the problem per se, although a purist might mention that the student's motivation for wearing the flag wasn't in line with the traditional reasons people display the flag. Likewise, removing the T-shirts wasn't really the appropriate solution.

The original root issue was protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration. Protesting the Cinco de Mayo celebrations were a matter of free speech, but free speech doesn't mean the people you insulted don't have the their own right to voice their opinion about your protest. Unless tempers flared to the point of violence erupting, then the school really didn't need to discipline anyone.
 
  • #90
Mech_Engineer
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The original root issue was protesting a Cinco de Mayo celebration. Protesting the Cinco de Mayo celebrations were a matter of free speech, but free speech doesn't mean the people you insulted don't have the their own right to voice their opinion about your protest. Unless tempers flared to the point of violence erupting, then the school really didn't need to discipline anyone.

The most confusing part of it all- the kids were "insulted" at other kids wearing american flags during cinco de mayo while they were wearing mexican flag memorabilia, a practice which is frowned upon IN MEXICO!
 
  • #91
CRGreathouse
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The most confusing part of it all- the kids were "insulted" at other kids wearing american flags during cinco de mayo while they were wearing mexican flag memorabilia, a practice which is frowned upon IN MEXICO!

Well, the gesture was apparently intended as an insult, so I'm not surprised it was taken as such. But I generally feel that the best answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
 
  • #92
BobG
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The most confusing part of it all- the kids were "insulted" at other kids wearing american flags during cinco de mayo while they were wearing mexican flag memorabilia, a practice which is frowned upon IN MEXICO!

Which part - the Cinco de Mayo celebration which might also be celebrated at a Mexican tourist resort frequented by Americans but nowhere else in Mexico or wearing the national flag as apparel, which is frowned upon by most countries, including the US.

In either case, why would the students care what Mexico thinks about it? They live in the US.

Cinco de Mayo isn't a celebration of nationality - it's a celebration of ancestry and culture.
 
  • #93
Char. Limit
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Personally, I place the school administrators in the wrong. A few anonymous complaints does not excuse the administrators telling the kid that he couldn't put a flag on his bicycle. ESPECIALLY not when there's already other flags flying EVERYWHERE in the school. If the complainers are offended by that kid, they should be offended by every classroom, office, and the big flagpole outside!

Also, did they really forbid him from flying a flag on his bicycle when what he does on his bicycle has no connection to the school whatsoever!? Unless he rides it around in the halls, what he does on the bicycle is his business. He could fly a Nazi flag on the bicycle and they can't make him take it down.
 
  • #94
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Nah you're much more likely to be killed by people of the 'same gang'. It's much more complicated than a blue vs. red analogy that the media loves. Gangs that associate with the 'bloods'(red) kill each other far more often than fighting anyone else.

This of course, makes perfect sense, once a gang stabilizes (relatively speaking), most of the action is going to be internal moves for power, territory, or the settling of dispute. Ask any homicide detective and they'll tell you the truism: "Nearest and Dearest" are most likely to have committed the crime... why wouldn't that apply to a gang? The only time inter-gang violence would spike is during a "gang war" or some other dispute, but they tend to be brief if bloody.


Anyway, this whole issue should have been ignored if these things didn't end in people getting hurt. That said, there hast to be something better than just saying, "No Flags Allowed", which doesn't address the actual tensions. You can reduce risk of fire by removing tinder, but if you're dealing with saaaay, a national park's worth of brush, you have to deal with the cause (drought, weather, etc) and not count on getting ever single dry pine needle and dead tree.
 
  • #95
Dembadon
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With all due respect I was using a touch of sarcasm there. Outlining how ridiculous the proposal of punishing the innocent is.

Any person threatening violent behaviour towards another should be removed. Problem solved. Removing the flag and leaving the violent person in place simply shifts the problem to another day when the person becomes 'offended' by someone else's actions.

You are inhabiting the US, you abide by their laws and benefit from their countries assets and facilities. You do not move there to gain all of this and then demand people already there change their ways to accommodate you. You can be as patriotic to your own country as you like, but don't you dare be offended when someone shows support for their country and you definitely have no grounds to complain of someone wearing the flag of the country you are inhabiting. If you don't like it, leave. If you are going to use violence to try and get your own way you should be thrown out.

I know it sounds exceptionally brutal but frankly I'm sick of this "we should accommodate everyone" approach being taken recently, especially in the UK. It is the current residents who are suffering because the government is ignoring what they want and going straight to the needs of immigrants.

I share your concern about attempting to accommodate everyone, but we don't know the specifics about the racial issues in this particular school. Sometimes the best solutions are preventative in nature, although it seems a bit silly that the school felt they could regulate Cody's actions while he wasn't even at school. In this case, their regulation probably should have been a suggestion. Also, the school isn't ignoring the troublemakers.

From the article (emphasis mine):
After being contacted by FOX40 Friday morning, Denair's Superintendent says Cody will be allowed to keep the flag on his bike. He told FOX40 he and the school are patriotic, but their main priority is keeping students safe; the school will focus on the students who are causing uprisings.
 
  • #96
Dembadon
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I meant the wedgie as a metaphor for the school telling the kid he can't display the flag, not as an example of a threat to the kid's safety. Although a wedgie can be pretty dangerous.:eek:

I think a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedgie#Variations" would probably be more dangerous than a wedgie, depending on angle.
 
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  • #97
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From the article (emphasis mine):

Of course, but my problem is with the fact their main attempt to control the issue was via the guy with the flag.

I agree, a suggestion to him / his family regarding wearing it should have been made, but they shouldn't impose a sanction on him immediately.
 
  • #98
Dembadon
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Of course, but my problem is with the fact their main attempt to control the issue was via the guy with the flag.

...

Preventative measures, in and of themselves, aren't always bad, especially when the risks are high and information is scarce. For instance, if it were likely that Cody's life was in danger, and the school didn't have enough information to take immediate action, a quick way to calm the situation would be to ask him to put the flag away until they have more information, rather than risk finding him curb-stomped one day because his rights were more important than his safety. This is an extreme case, I know, but not one that can be ignored without more information.
 
  • #99
2,745
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Oh of course dembadon, get rid of the danger as soon as possible.

But they didn't just ask him not to display it, they banned him from doing so. It's one thing to tell someone you believe them to be in danger and that they shouldn't display it until they know what's going on to ensure they remain safe, but it's something else when you simply ban it.

Again, if you don't like the US flag, don't live in the US. If you want to live in a country don't get mad when you see symbols that represent that country.
 

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