An age of the Universe around 20 billion years

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter yheyman
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Age Universe Years
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the age of the Universe, specifically examining the implications of the Hubble Sphere and the Hubble constant. Participants explore different models and calculations that suggest the Universe could be around 20 billion years old, contrasting this with the commonly accepted age of approximately 13.7 billion years. The conversation includes theoretical considerations, redshift phenomena, and the implications of cosmological models.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the Hubble Sphere's distance in light years is approximately equal to the age of the Universe calculated as 1/Ho (13.7 billion years), suggesting a potential coincidence.
  • Others argue that this relationship is not coincidental but a trivial consequence of the definition of the Hubble constant, which is derived from the relationship between recession velocity and distance.
  • One participant presents a model indicating that a time-varying Hubble coefficient could yield an age of the Universe between 20-25 billion years, which aligns with some estimates from stellar dating.
  • Another participant discusses the convergence of redshift to infinity at the Hubble sphere, emphasizing the frame-independent nature of the speed of light and its implications for energy and wavelength as recession speeds approach light speed.
  • There is a contention regarding the applicability of special relativity in cosmological contexts, with some asserting that special relativity does not hold in this framework.
  • Participants reference various sources and papers to support their claims and calculations, indicating a reliance on both theoretical and observational data.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the Hubble Sphere and the age of the Universe, with no consensus reached. Some support the notion of a 20-25 billion year age based on alternative models, while others defend the established age of approximately 13.7 billion years. The discussion remains unresolved with competing perspectives on the validity of different cosmological models.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on various cosmological models and assumptions about the behavior of light in an expanding Universe. The discussion also highlights unresolved mathematical steps and differing interpretations of redshift phenomena.

yheyman
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Is it coincidental that the Hubble Sphere, in light years, is approximately the age of the universe computed as 1/Ho (13.7 billion years)?

If the recession speed exceeds the speed of light, the photon would never reach the observer, this is why there exists a horizon of the visible Universe (the Hubble sphere), beyond which light would never reach us. Historically the age of the Universe was computed from the loockback time between a redshift zero and infinity, which yields 1/Ho. Note that this measure gives the lookback time to the Hubble sphere because the redshift must converge towards infinity at the horizon of the visible Universe. Here is a reference showing the calculations with a De Sitter Universe (http://www.jrank.org/space/pages/2440/look-back-time.html). Another reference where the age of the Universe is computed with the look-back time between a redshift of zero and infinity: http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/staff/hvoss/DiplWeb/DiplWebap1.html . See A.36 et A.37.

Using another approach we can show that an apparently steady Hubble coefficient in the light travel distance framework is equivalent to a time-varying Hubble coefficient in the Euclidean framework of order two (i.e. Universe expanding at a steady acceleration pace). This approach gives an age of the Universe of about 20-25 billion years. This figure is compatible with the age of the Universe obtained from the datation of old stars. According to Chaboyer (1995) who analysed metal-rich and metal-poor globular clusters, the absolute age of the oldest globular clusters are found to lie in the range 11-21 Gyr. Bolte et al. (1995) estimated the age of the M92 globular cluster to be 15.8 Gyr. Th/Eu dating yields stellar ages of up to 18.9 Gyr (Truran et al., 2001). A paper describing this appoach is available online: http://fr.calameo.com/books/00014533338c183febd92
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Space news on Phys.org
yheyman said:
Is it coincidental that the Hubble Sphere, in light years, is approximately the age of the universe computed as 1/Ho (13.7 billion years)?

It's not a coincidence, it's just a trivial consequence of the definition of the Hubble constant. The Hubble constant is defined by fitting a slope Ho to a graph of v versus r, where r is the proper distance ( https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=506990 ). That means we define Ho by using v=Hor, so if you plug in v=c you trivially get r=1/Ho.

yheyman said:
If the recession speed exceeds the speed of light, the photon would never reach the observer, this is why there exists a horizon of the visible Universe (the Hubble sphere), beyond which light would never reach us.
No, this is incorrect: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=506987 The Hubble sphere that you're referring to is smaller than the observable universe.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My argument why the redshift converge to infinity at the Hubble sphere is the following: The main hypothesis for the development of a model for the motion of the photon in an expanding space, is that the speed of light is frame-independent. Considering redshifts, this means that the relative movement of a light source does not change the speed of light emitted; however, it does add or subtract energy. This change in energy level changes the frequency of the source of light, and not the speed. When the recession speed reaches the speed of light, all energy transmitted to the observer is being removed, and the corresponding wavelength tends to infinity according to Planck law. The cosmic microwave background is a good example. It is very close to the Hubble sphere and its redshift is about 1000.
 
Last edited:
yheyman said:
My argument why the redshift converge to infinity at the Hubble sphere is the following: The main hypothesis for the development of a model for the motion of the photon in an expanding space, is that the speed of light is frame-independent. Considering redshifts, this means that the relative movement of a light source does not change the speed of light emitted; however, it does add or subtract energy. This change in energy level changes the frequency of the source of light, and not the speed. When the recession speed reaches the speed of light, all energy transmitted to the observer is being removed, and the corresponding wavelength tends to infinity according to Planck law.

Your description would be correct according to special relativity, but special relativity isn't valid for cosmology.

Do you have background in general relativity at a mathematical level? If so, then you should be able to follow the calculation given in the FAQ entry linked to from #2, but please feel free to ask questions if there are steps you don't understand.

If not, then here is an article that attempts to explain the ideas without assuming any mathematical background in GR: http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/~charley/papers/LineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
Replies
7
Views
4K