Are guys growing up fast enough? Should they?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the evolving roles and expectations of men in contemporary society, particularly regarding commitment, family, and personal development. Participants explore cultural shifts that influence men's decisions about marriage, parenthood, and career paths, reflecting on personal experiences and societal observations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note a trend of men delaying traditional responsibilities, such as marriage and parenthood, which they argue may not necessarily be negative.
  • Others express a desire for early commitment and stability, contrasting with the more carefree attitudes of their peers.
  • A participant highlights cultural uncertainty regarding male roles, suggesting that traditional qualities expected of men are becoming less relevant.
  • Some contributors discuss the impact of increased freedom on life choices, noting that while it offers more options, it can also lead to instability and confusion about direction.
  • There are reflections on the entrepreneurial nature of modern work, with some suggesting that success in today's economy may not align with traditional male stereotypes.
  • Several participants express feelings of being overwhelmed by the multitude of choices available, leading to discussions about decision-making strategies.
  • One participant critiques an article for lacking substance, indicating a divergence in how participants perceive the value of external commentary on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a range of perspectives, with no clear consensus on whether the changes in male roles are positive or negative. There are competing views on the implications of increased freedom and the nature of modern responsibilities.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions reflect personal uncertainties and varying definitions of success, which may depend on individual circumstances and societal expectations. The conversation also touches on the historical context of male roles, suggesting a transition from traditional models to more fluid identities.

  • #31
I think it's true that guys just are not that into a serious relationship/marriage at an early age. Guys are all about them and don't want a girl to get in the way of any of the plans. Maybe I'm just young and want something more that can't be rushed along, I know, but gosh guys... Give us what we want too lol.
 
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  • #32
hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.
 
  • #33
Physics-Learner said:
hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.

That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.
 
  • #34
sometimes it can be hard to see the forest because of the trees.
 
  • #35
DanP said:
That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

I assume he means socialized?
 
  • #36
Norman said:
I assume he means socialized?

Probably he means that, but he cannot see the forest because of the trees.
 
  • #37
DanP said:
That's bull. Nobody is brainwashed.

No doubt, however there may be some hard wiring differences between male and female mammals in general?

Maybe that the male genes command their bodies to go and multiply as much as possible- quantity, whereas the female genes tell their bodies to be very careful, whose child to carry because it is a heavy investment - pregnancy - nursing - raising. in a word, quality

So the male mammals have to convince females about that quality by superior fighting, rutting, tribe wars, footbal, gaming.
 
  • #38
Andre said:
No doubt, however there may be some hard wiring differences between male and female mammals in general?

Maybe that the male genes command their bodies to go and multiply as much as possible- quantity, whereas the female genes tell their bodies to be very careful, whose child to carry because it is a heavy investment - pregnancy - nursing - raising. in a word, quality

So the male mammals have to convince females about that quality by superior fighting, rutting, tribe wars, footbal, gaming.

Sure they are. A lot of differences in behavior, some arising from biology, some arising from social factors.

But the fact is, the very "I", the human self, is largely a social construct. Anyone who claims that the building of the very core of a social being, the self, is brainwashing has serious issues understanding humans. Without it, we would be nothing. Less than a chimp.
 
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  • #39
Right, however, maybe it's the current decreasing demand for tribe wars and other forms of fighing that -assuming the conservation of testosterone levels- caused the swift to increasing gaming activities.
 
  • #40
Andre said:
Right, however, maybe it's the current decreasing demand for tribe wars and other forms of fighing that -assuming the conservation of testosterone levels- caused the swift to increasing gaming activities.

It may originate in something like that. God knows. As Lisab said, life is too easy nowadays for most humans in the civilized world. Just look at decreases in average energy expenditure since 1800. Obesity trends are scary. Depression is on the raise. Diabetes and depression will soon be the most widespread afflictions in the rank of humans, if trends don't change. Yes, I think there might be some truth in this. For most, there are no more enemies to kill, no monsters to vanquish, you don't even need to chuck wood to make heat in your house.

You can consider yourself lucky if you get a a high stakes job, it may still allow you to play and manage risk in the real world. That's just about the only thing left. Or go entrepreneurial and pull your company up, that would be satisfactory as well. And let's not forget a career in politics.
 
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  • #41
Right, apart from that, there is more behind the decreasing demand for tribe wars, the disappearance of conscription following the end of the cold war.

The military reshaped "boys" in a way to become "men"; (Parenthesis included to put any strawman in perspective that one can invent about that statement).

The military tends to extend limits beyond belief, hardship, taking away barriers - I did not know I could do that - proudness ect. At least that's what it intended to do.

Personally, I think it also made men more susceptible to groupthink (we -the good guys- against them -the bad guys).

I doubt if the current reduced numbers of volunteers can do in society what conscript did some decades ago.
 
  • #42
when one is young, he knows everything. after he has managed to cut down at least a few of the trees, he finds he knows very little. but he does manage to finally learn that he does not know everything.

a few words from jackson browne

Just do the steps that you've been shown
By everyone you've ever known
Until the dance becomes your very own
No matter how close to yours another's steps have grown
In the end there is one dance you'll do alone.

Into a dancer you have grown
From a seed somebody else has thrown
Go on ahead and throw
Some seeds of your own.

And somewhere between the time
You arrive and the time you go
May lie a reason you were alive
But you'll never know...
 
  • #43
Physics-Learner said:
when one is young, he knows everything. after he has managed to cut down at least a few of the trees, he finds he knows very little. but he does manage to finally learn that he does not know everything.

You are missing the point completely. This thread is not about young ppl, is about changes in the structure of the society and behavior of both men and women.
 
  • #44
i understand quite well. and i stick by my original comment to the girl to whom i replied.
 
  • #45
Doom speaker's more often than not are wrong no?

Perhaps the benefits of an Xboxerized youth is merely yet to become apparent (technologically aware youth, abstract thinkers and problem solvers, decline in the population Earth is required to support, survival of the fittest gene pool etc)
 
  • #46
Andre said:
Right, apart from that, there is more behind the decreasing demand for tribe wars, the disappearance of conscription following the end of the cold war.

The military reshaped "boys" in a way to become "men"; (Parenthesis included to put any strawman in perspective that one can invent about that statement).

The military tends to extend limits beyond belief, hardship, taking away barriers - I did not know I could do that - proudness ect. At least that's what it intended to do.

Personally, I think it also made men more susceptible to groupthink (we -the good guys- against them -the bad guys).

I doubt if the current reduced numbers of volunteers can do in society what conscript did some decades ago.

This is an excellent perspective Andre and I will seriously think at it and it's implications in the next days.
 
  • #47
Zryn said:
Doom speaker's more often than not are wrong no?

Perhaps the benefits of an Xboxerized youth is merely yet to become apparent (technologically aware youth, abstract thinkers and problem solvers, decline in the population Earth is required to support, survival of the fittest gene pool etc)

Wishful thinking IMO. But evolution doesn't care about what I think. It'll just "judge" coldly.
 
  • #48
This does sound a bit like a 'back in my day' commentary to be honest. Back in the good old days before Xbox's, when men were men and joined the army and killed things, what were the leading health issues, and retrospectively, how were they solved?

Is it possible we're just glamorizing the 'good' aspects of pre-1990 (mainstream computing) because those good bits solve our current bad bits? What did the young men and women spend their spare time doing back then? Laying in the sun or smoking?

I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.
 
  • #49
Zryn said:
This does sound a bit like a 'back in my day' commentary to be honest. Back in the good old days before Xbox's, when men were men and joined the army and killed things, what were the leading health issues, and retrospectively, how were they solved?

Certainly not obesity:P And Andre's commentary is not a "back in my day" one, I guarantee you.

Zryn said:
Is it possible we're just glamorizing the 'good' aspects of pre-1990 (mainstream computing) because those good bits solve our current bad bits? What did the young men and women spend their spare time doing back then? Laying in the sun or smoking?

For kids / teenagers:

Pre 1990 in our free time we played football , wrestled outside, biked. Weekends up in the mountains. Caving. hiking. In the winter we went skiing. We where full of bruises and our parents never thought we will somehow break. I could fight at school without anyone thinking I am the devil and the end of the world draws near. I've also red a lot in the evenings. Sometimes at a candle, for in communist times the power was cut every evening in some periods. We had hot water only once a week. Sometimes in the winter we didn't had any heating in apartments. It was cut off. But I was very seldom ill. We only had TV for 2h / evening, mainly ****, political propaganda. Nothing interesting to watch.

In hindsight, it was a good childhood. Yes, I would have preferred to live in a civilized country not in a communist garbagehole, but save the political situation I do not feel I was robbed of anything in my teenage years.

As for adults: What free time ? :P Free time was generally scarce. But ppl spent free moments as anyone does. Relaxing and socializing with friends.

Zryn said:
I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.

The only thing I can say is that if you consider that obesity and depression are just "different", then we are as different as night and day. I can't possibly fathom how those things are not destructive to humans. Obesity is a deadly curse.
 
  • #50
I'm not convinced all these things you're talking about (including the article and immaturity and obesity and depression and easy lifestyles and relationship problems) are 'bad', just different from what we're used to.

---

The only thing I can say is that if you consider that obesity and depression are just "different", then we are as different as night and day. I can't possibly fathom how those things are not destructive to humans. Obesity is a deadly curse.

Oh yeah sure Obesity is a 'bad' thing, but what I mean is that Obesity just replaced something as the worst affliction of the current day and age. My point is that there is always social problems that get 'fixed' by being replaced with something else 'bad', just different from what we're used to. I'm sure there was something 'bad' but different in those days. Is this better or worse than what it was?
 
  • #51
Zryn said:
Oh yeah sure Obesity is 'bad', but what I mean is that Obesity just replaced something as the worst affliction of the current day and age. My point is that there is always social problems that get 'fixed' by being replaced with something else equally 'bad', just different from what we're used to. I'm sure there was something equally 'bad' but different in those days.

Ok, but maybe for the first time you can do something about it. It's not cholera or pestilence or god knows what else. Save for some special clinical cases, obesity is a case of sloth and gluttony. You **can choose** not to be obese.

Can't you see what difference this makes ?
 
  • #52
Physics-Learner said:
hi mcknia07,

the main problem is that males and females get vastly different brainwashing during our first stages of life, thereby creating vastly different desires.

Well, I don't think people are brainwashed otherwise we all would have different views on things. I think it is just a personal choice for most...
 
  • #53
To be honest, I think computers and technology are turning our younger generations, both male and female, into something despicable. Young women live on facebook while young men waste their lives on video games. I see people on dates texting other people instead of talking. It's disgusting.
 
  • #54
To be honest, I think computers and technology are turning our younger generations, both male and female, into something despicable

Tech-zombies!
 
  • #55
DanP said:
Ok, but maybe for the first time you can do something about it. It's not cholera or pestilence or god knows what else. Save for some special clinical cases, obesity is a case of sloth and gluttony. You **can choose** not to be obese.

Can't you see what difference this makes ?

Yeah but does it really matter about choice when you choose not to do something? Dying of the Plague and dying of Obesity is still dead. Look how many Americans are considered obese these days, despite having a choice not to be.

In the end, the kids of today are always seen to be 'doing it wrong' to a section of the populace despite them just doing it differently as pertains to the current times. I'm sure the 60's/70's kids were immature in taking drugs and partying and listening to music and championing free love and the end of the world was nigh then too.

Nothing has changed, because everything has changed. When you get a couple of generations who don't evoke 'back in my day' commentaries, then you'll have something truly odd to worry about.
 
  • #56
PhDorBust said:
To be honest, I think computers and technology are turning our younger generations, both male and female, into something despicable. Young women live on facebook while young men waste their lives on video games. I see people on dates texting other people instead of talking. It's disgusting.

Technology cannot force anyone to lead an irresponsible life. Therefore, it is not the fault of technology, but rather the person who is using technology irresponsibly. People need to take responsibility for their own time management and life decisions. Stop blaming it on technology. You are in charge of your own life!
 
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  • #58
I find being obese is a drag, but the activities leading to obesity are kind of enjoyable. if only one did not lead to the other.
 
  • #59
mathwonk said:
I find being obese is a drag, but the activities leading to obesity are kind of enjoyable. if only one did not lead to the other.

Exercise 10h / week, incorporate exercises like clean and jerks and snatches in your strength program, walk as much as possible and learn to jump rope, and you will have the luxury to eat anything your soul desire. Chocolate ? Any time. Carbs with the wheelbarrow ? Any time :P

It's give some, take some. I love food. Exercising allows me to eat loads and satisfy a great pleasure of my life.
 
  • #60
DanP said:
Exercise 10h / week, incorporate exercises like clean and jerks and snatches in your strength program, walk as much as possible and learn to jump rope, and you will have the luxury to eat anything your soul desire. Chocolate ? Any time. Carbs with the wheelbarrow ? Any time :P

It's give some, take some. I love food. Exercising allows me to eat loads and satisfy a great pleasure of my life.

Just the little push I needed to go jog a few miles this evening :smile:...bye for now!
 

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