News Are Illegal Aliens Responsible for Environmental Issues in Arizona?

[SOS2008]

I think getting permanent citizenship would easily be taken by them if they got the opportunity. It still allows them to go see ther family and they are legally allowed back intot he country. A lot of the money is sent back to their families but hey, their money, they worked for it, what can you do hehe. And SOS, they check your income and education level for citizenship approval?

Try getting into any country--like Canada. When they had a large number of immigrants coming from Hong Kong, these people had to show lots of assets. Some countries are much more strict than the U.S. -- The U.S. allows large numbers of people to immigrate legally each year. Yes, countries want immigrants that will contribute as citizens, not just go on welfare as these folks from Mexico per the quotes provided above. I personally believe this to be prudent and justified.

 

[Huckleberry]

First of all, there are many countries with poverty and conditions far worse than in Mexico. Should the U.S. accept all these people because these people are suffering, or in the case of Mexicans, because they want the American Dream? As the standard of living falls due to these immense pressures on our system, I'm sure you won't mind all of us Americans coming across the northern border into Canada, right? Countries are supposed to be sovereign, meaning they have the right to control their borders and to choose who they will allow to enter. There is no excuse for the violation of this right of any country, even a wealthy country like the U.S., by any group of people just because they want a better life. I don't accept any such arguments for any reason.

I feel that you are misunderstanding me. I do not condone illegal immigration of any sort. I think that this countries legal immigration laws are overly lax. That is my point of view and the point of view of a majority of US citizens.
There is always more than one point of view to consider. Consider for a moment how you would feel if you were a Mexican living in poverty in Mexico. They also have a sense of nationalism and their government supports immigration to the US by any means. Why would they choose to honor the laws of the US over their own nation?
I believe it is important not to cast blame on the Mexican people who are just doing what anyone would do in their shoes. The problem is a lack of cooperation between governments to create and enforce laws that are actually effective in controlling illegal immigration.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't think anyone blames the Meixcan people. I for one blame their government. You can't blame people for their backwards corrupt government... but then again too bad they don't 'rise up' and kick their government up the butt. Unfortunately a lot of Mexicans benefit off of the Mexican governments policies of telling people to go to the US and take money so i don't see them doing that anytime soon. Really sucks when a government can be so screwed up yet convince hteir population that its nto ther fault and they can help their cause by going and ruining another country.

 

[SOS2008]

I feel that you are misunderstanding me. I do not condone illegal immigration of any sort. I think that this countries legal immigration laws are overly lax. That is my point of view and the point of view of a majority of US citizens.
There is always more than one point of view to consider. Consider for a moment how you would feel if you were a Mexican living in poverty in Mexico. They also have a sense of nationalism and their government supports immigration to the US by any means. Why would they choose to honor the laws of the US over their own nation?
I believe it is important not to cast blame on the Mexican people who are just doing what anyone would do in their shoes. The problem is a lack of cooperation between governments to create and enforce laws that are actually effective in controlling illegal immigration.

I do not blame those people for wanting a better life. I do blame them for breaking laws, and not respecting our sovereignty. Is this the kind of person you want as your new neighbor? What other laws are okay to break in pursuit of a better life? If you go to Mexico and break their laws, I hear it's a really pleasant experience. As a country, we must have some kind of cap on the number of people who enter, and we must have some kind of qualifications for the people who enter.

Most of all I blame Bush. His proposal to to ignore caps or qualifications and just extend blanket amnesty caused the number of illegals to sky-rocket even further. This is so irresponsible, I have no words for it.

 

[Pengwuino]

Feel like joining those minutemen dudes :D

 

[Huckleberry]

I do not blame those people for wanting a better life. I do blame them for breaking laws, and not respecting our sovereignty.

I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.

The issue is very complicated. It's not economical to imprison them. It's not ethical to shoot them. They have no money so they cannot be fined. All we can do is send them back to Mexico where they will most likely try to cross the border again. Border Patrol cannot cover all the territory along the border. (although I'm not certain how hard they are trying because I've seen immigrants walking along the roads several times).

We could actually try enforcing the laws we already have and not allow businesses to hire illegal immigrants. This also would have huge consequences. The reports I've read said there are 8 million illegal immigrants in this country (not all of them from Mexico). If the US enforced this policy then huge numbers of people would be out of work. All these people are not going to just walk back home. Crime will rise significantly.

No matter how you look at it, there will be problems. Its a grey issue and needs a gradual solution. I would be honored to have a legal Mexican immigrant as my neighbor. Having spent 3 months living in Mexico, never before have I seen a kinder, more accepting culture. I would respect an illegal immigrant acting on their human right to better their lives. I would not help them (besides water and food if they asked), but I also would not hinder them. I would ask the government to create an effective solution.

 

[Kerrie]

I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.

The issue is very complicated. It's not economical to imprison them. It's not ethical to shoot them. They have no money so they cannot be fined. All we can do is send them back to Mexico where they will most likely try to cross the border again. Border Patrol cannot cover all the territory along the border. (although I'm not certain how hard they are trying because I've seen immigrants walking along the roads several times).

We could actually try enforcing the laws we already have and not allow businesses to hire illegal immigrants. This also would have huge consequences. The reports I've read said there are 8 million illegal immigrants in this country (not all of them from Mexico). If the US enforced this policy then huge numbers of people would be out of work. All these people are not going to just walk back home. Crime will rise significantly.

No matter how you look at it, there will be problems. Its a grey issue and needs a gradual solution. I would be honored to have a legal Mexican immigrant as my neighbor. Having spent 3 months living in Mexico, never before have I seen a kinder, more accepting culture. I would respect an illegal immigrant acting on their human right to better their lives. I would not help them (besides water and food if they asked), but I also would not hinder them. I would ask the government to create an effective solution.

i would think if i enter into another country, if i break their laws, i will go to prison/jail/pay fines, etc...if they are "sneaking" into our country, it's obvious they know it's illegal. and isn't it already illegal for businesses to illegal immigrants? whenever i have gotten a new job, the application asks if i am legally able to work in the united states, and then am required to provide a copy of my social security card.

i hear australia is super tough to immigrate too, i looked at the immigration process for Canada as well, tough also. can't blame them for looking for a better life, but you should have to earn the legal status, not just take it.

 

[Huckleberry]

As a US citizen it is in my best interests to agree with you. But what is to be done with the 8 million illegal immigrants already in this country? No solution is going to be easy. I also believe that a human beings right to improve their lives superceeds the laws of a nation.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

This document declares that it is a human right to seek Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Human rights belong to people of all nations. This document also states that when these things are threatened it is the right of the governed to reorganize their government to best suit their needs. It is our responsibility to come up with a solution and not to cast blame on peoples of other nations for following in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. This document is part of the foundation of this nation.

 

[SOS2008]

Even with the new Patriot Act illegals can buy property in the U.S., because like the I-9 requirements, they only need to present documents, but the documents are not checked in any way with regard to fraud (and for that matter, voter registration too). This is where it would be so easy to start solving a lot of the problem. But Americans need to be educated on these matters and then demand these things from their representatives.

As for the over-all cost illegals are causing to the legal citizenry, we could have easily built a Great Wall of China, and should have done so a long time ago. What gets me is how Bush is the great warrior of terrorism. How can this be the case when he refuses to secure the most obvious thing--our borders?

 

[cronxeh]

one logical conclusion is that its not about terrorists. if it was, there would be a new geography and geology of tora bora

 

[SOS2008]

I also believe that a human beings right to improve their lives superceeds the laws of a nation.

This makes me want to immigrate elsewhere.

This document declares that it is a human right to seek Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Human rights belong to people of all nations. This document also states that when these things are threatened it is the right of the governed to reorganize their government to best suit their needs. It is our responsibility to come up with a solution and not to cast blame on peoples of other nations for following in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. This document is part of the foundation of this nation.

This document applies to citizens, and moreover to citizens who abide by the law--did you know prisoners lose some of these rights because they break the law? Why should a foreigner be granted any privileges or exemption?

 

[Huckleberry]

Even with the new Patriot Act illegals can buy property in the U.S., because like the I-9 requirements, they only need to present documents, but the documents are not checked in any way with regard to fraud (and for that matter, voter registration too). This is where it would be so easy to start solving a lot of the problem. But Americans need to be educated on these matters and then demand these things from their representatives.

As for the over-all cost illegals are causing to the legal citizenry, we could have easily built a Great Wall of China, and should have done so a long time ago. What gets me is how Bush is the great warrior of terrorism. How can this be the case when he refuses to secure the most obvious thing--our borders?

It amazes me that we have laws against illegal immigration and yet the practices of our own government seems to condone it if not encourage it. With one hand where we can see it they say 'stop' and with another one behind their back they say 'come on over'. All this talk about illegal immigrants having the right to vote and get drivers liscences and buying property and getting jobs kind of frustrates me. What is the government's motive for this? What do they expect to gain? It seems obviously intentional to me.

Note the first line, (second paragraph) of the Declaration of Independence states that it is a human right to seek life,liberty and happiness. It does not say a citizens right.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.

Well unfortunately, that's really too bad. You might as well legalize theft if you think that way. I am sorry but if they want to survive, survive in their own country, tell theri government to help them, break their own countries laws to survive, not ours. If they feel the laws shouldn't apply to them because they need to survive, they should storm into government offices and take stuff, not come to the US nad live off our welfare system.

And stopping illegal aliens from being hired is an immensly hard idea. No one really knows if you hire illegal aliens because its all under the table and no one admits htey do it. Its like selling drugs. Theres no government regulation with drugs so its hard to catch people doing the illegal act of selling them.

And you seem to forget huckleberry, the declaration of indepedance was not a world wide declaration of independance nor was it an actual legal piece of text. Its equivalent of me writing down on a napkin that its the human right of all girls to be allowed to walk in the street naked. Just because i right it doesn't mean it should immediately apply to every human being on earth.

When you live in a society, you agree to their rules. You agree to respect and obey their laws in return for the societies services. If you think your above the laws of the land for absolutely any reason, you officially do not belong in that society and should nto expect help from that society or any society for that matter. If these people want a better life, don't look towards the hill and over the mountain, look in your own back yard. You have a very good economy but the government and rich are corrupt as hell. You have all the good life style you need... you just need to fight for it like so many other nations have had to fight for it.

 

[Pengwuino]

It amazes me that we have laws against illegal immigration and yet the practices of our own government seems to condone it if not encourage it. With one hand where we can see it they say 'stop' and with another one behind their back they say 'come on over'. All this talk about illegal immigrants having the right to vote and get drivers liscences and buying property and getting jobs kind of frustrates me. What is the government's motive for this? What do they expect to gain? It seems obviously intentional to me.

Its because many of our politicians do not respect the very laws they are told to enforce and the very Constitution they swore to defend and uphold. One group of people said ok here's hte laws, no illegal immigrants. Another group though decides they are above the law and above what hte people want and try to pass laws in complete opposition to this ideal. JUDGES are suppose to stop this kind of crap but they don't and hell, they practically encourage it. When are federal and supreme court judges going to stop ruling on whether its illegal or not to park your car more then 12" off the curb with a hubcap larger thne 15" when they should be telling lawmakers "Hey, don't you dare try to compromise the written laws of the United States government with this illegal alien loving bs"

 

[Huckleberry]

I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were starving? How quickly would you decide that stealing is justified?

 

[SOS2008]

We currently face record deficits, in large part do to the war in Iraq and tax cuts that Bush wants to make permanent, add to that the high cost for energy, etc. However, according to the study quoted above, the impact of eliminating illegal alien labor would not be as detrimental to the economy that many fear:

This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output.

Though with regard to some industries like agriculture where migrant workers have been employed for generations, I'm not so sure.

I believe we pay more in hidden ways than it would cost to actually process these people. For those that are already here illegally, but meet other qualifications, let them choose to go home or at least pay back taxes, maybe a fine, in order to stay. But the borders need to be made secure immediately, and verification of documents by companies required too.

I feel Bush takes the stance he has because he owes people and because he will do what ever it takes to have continued power to that end.

 

[Huckleberry]

The people who are hurt most by illegal aliens are the poor citizens of the US who are in competition for the same unskilled labor jobs. US citizens with a professional skill suffer more in the taxes that they pay, but they also benefit slightly from the lower price of goods and services. Unskilled citizens suffer a loss of income to compete for these jobs AND pay taxes to deal with illegal immigrant issues.



From the Center of Immigration Studies

Costs

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

Hmm, this is interesting. This report says that Bush wants to make all 8 million illegal immigrants legal citizens.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/
Why does this all sound bogus to me? What is he doing?!

 

[SOS2008]

Huck, you just reminded me of another thought I meant to mention before. Right after prop 200 was passed in Arizona, of course it was immediately disputed as being unconstitutional, but it has been upheld. The new disputes between state and federal on this topic, as well as environmental regulations (California), etc. are something to take note of. Bush, et al, are in favor of more federal power, and in that same vein bigger government, which is contrary to the traditional Republican platform. And IMO the state and federal disputes just represent another fight over preservation of checks and balances in our democracy.

 

[Huckleberry]

Huck, you just reminded me of another thought I meant to mention before. Right after prop 200 was passed in Arizona, of course it was immediately disputed as being unconstitutional, but it has been upheld. The new disputes between state and federal on this topic, as well as environmental regulations (California), etc. are something to take note of. Bush, et al, are in favor of more federal power, and in that same vein bigger government, which is contrary to the traditional Republican platform. And IMO the state and federal disputes just represent another fight over preservation of checks and balances in our democracy.

Hmm, seems prop 200 is a good thing for Arizona residents. It requires proof of residency for many services and the right to vote. It also sets punishments for those who violate the law. Unless I'm missing something the only downfall for the citizen is a more rigid, monitored state. Illegal immigrants wouldn't like it.

It doesn't surprise me that this passed in Arizona. It has always been a conservative state. Looking at the number of illegal immigrants that enter this country, by far most of them come in through California and Texas. I wonder how a similar bill would go over in those states, especially since more illegal aliens would be voting against it?

 

[SOS2008]

Hmm, seems prop 200 is a good thing for Arizona residents. It requires proof of residency for many services and the right to vote. It also sets punishments for those who violate the law. Unless I'm missing something the only downfall for the citizen is a more rigid, monitored state. Illegal immigrants wouldn't like it.

It doesn't surprise me that this passed in Arizona. It has always been a conservative state. Looking at the number of illegal immigrants that enter this country, by far most of them come in through California and Texas. I wonder how a similar bill would go over in those states, especially since more illegal aliens would be voting against it?

Many states made inquiries of how they could put similar props on their ballots in the future, so I think you will see more of this--states taking the matter into their own hands because the federal government is failing to address these issues.

 

[cronxeh]

thats the way it really should be done - i don't see how there could be a universal law that would apply to each state about these things. but then again, state-wide laws are a pain for interstate travelers to cope with

 

[SOS2008]

...Now look at Mexico and India - the population is out of control, partially thanks to global as well as local religion and other primal instincts.

So guess what the debate was on CNN last night? They had members from the Sierra Club on the program, because now there is debate within this group about over-population and whether illegal immigration is contributing to environmental problems. So to this thread I add:

http://www.pbs.org/journeytoplanetearth/stateoftheplanet/index_population.html

Too often those of us living with the luxuries of the West assume that the battle to save the environment will be fought amid the turmoil of the developing world. But there's another, more familiar battleground – it's located in our planet's richest country, the United States.

As a result of immigration and low infant mortality, over the next fifty years the United State's population is expected to reach 420 million. The implications are enormous.

Americans live in a hi-tech world of automobiles and factories requiring huge amounts of energy. Our life styles impose more than a hundred times the stress on the planet than many of those in the developing world. This raises one of the most fundamental questions of our time: can our planet provide future generations with even the basic necessities of life?

Feel like joining those minutemen dudes :D

CNN provided an update on this last night too. Apparently the Minutemen organization has had success and is expanding in size and agenda. Now they also plan to go after businesses that hire illegals. Bush refers to this group as vigilantes, but maybe he should consider the alternative--people marching on the White House?

...thats the way it really should be done - i don't see how there could be a universal law that would apply to each state about these things. but then again, state-wide laws are a pain for interstate travelers to cope with

There still is the matter of the cost that illegal immigration has caused to the states. So states continue to place pressure on the federal government for financial assistance in the matter, and I think the states should, because it's the lax federal policies that are to blame for the problem.

 

[Huckleberry]

That is all very interesting, but I'm not sure that those environmental problems can be blamed on illegal immigration. I saw a video today on almost the same subject as your post. It stated that the US makes about 5% of the world population, yet we use about 1/4 of the energy resources of the planet. The ratio of cars in this nation is increasing 3/1 to the population. If all the people on Earth lived as the average citizen of the US then we would need 2 other planets the same size as Earth to support them all.

Illegal immigration would certainly play a part in this, but not a large enough one to blame for our own (what's the word I'm looking for?) over-consumption. These immigrants are almost always poor. They do not have a television in every room and a car for every person. These options are available to them, but they must be thrifty with their money. That is something they are used to doing. If they are illegal they are restricted as to what jobs they can get.

Looking again at those pictures that started this thread I do not believe that is near anyone's residential property. That looks like a stopping point for a group, or several groups, of illegal immigrants that has crossed the border. Those gallon jugs were probably brought there by someone in a truck in the US and left for a guide to bring the group of illegal immigrants to. It doesn't make it any less environmentally tolerable, but that area is probably miles from any kind of civilization.

What kind of environmental damage in particular were you referring to?

 

[SOS2008]

What kind of environmental damage in particular were you referring to?

What the PBS program said is that the U.S. produces the highest emission of greenhouse gases per capita because we are such a high-tech country. For example, almost everyone drives a car. When you suddenly add illegal immigrants to this population in such large numbers, it creates an environmental problem no one anticipated. Of course, the problem is that the U.S. has this lifestyle in the first place--the population explosion by illegals only exasperates what everyone here should be trying to reduce.

 

[Huckleberry]

Yes, this seams to be another example of finger pointing. A lack of interest in taking responsibility. They have a point that illegal immigrants will add significantly to pollution because there are so many of them in this country. 8 million or thereabouts. 8 million illegal aliens compared to the 300 million citizens who are producing more greenhouse gases on average anyway. This will become more of an issue as time goes on and people will start looking more seriously at it as a reason to end illegal immigration.

Was it Ben Franklin who said "Fish and visitors stink after three days."?

 

[Math Is Hard]

I am required by law to submit my vehicle for smog check every three years in order for it to be registered. I doubt that illegal aliens would pay heed to these restrictions, since they're not really worried about registration or insurance.
This reminds me of something...
I once had a car that couldn't pass smog check. I took it for a trade-in at a dealership and the car dealer found a buyer right away in Mexico. They don't have the same regulations down there. He said most likely it would be rigged up in some way to allow it to temporarily pass smog check and it would be back on our side of the border within 30 days.

 

[Informal Logic]

I am required by law to submit my vehicle for smog check every three years in order for it to be registered. I doubt that illegal aliens would pay heed to these restrictions, since they're not really worried about registration or insurance.
This reminds me of something...
I once had a car that couldn't pass smog check. I took it for a trade-in at a dealership and the car dealer found a buyer right away in Mexico. They don't have the same regulations down there. He said most likely it would be rigged up in some way to allow it to temporarily pass smog check and it would be back on our side of the border within 30 days.

Along this line is that many poor people (no just illegals, though many illegals would be included in this category) drive old vehicles that are not required to pass emissions in some states. I also know someone who has made fake insurance documents. Once again, the police have looked at the document but never verify authenticity.

 

[Huckleberry]

I don't doubt that illegal immigrants add to the environmental problem of the US, but they are not the cause of it. They will be the first ones to take the blame because they do not belong here.

Some counties along the Arizona border do not require any emissions tests at all. For example while I was living in Pima county I did not need to have my car tested, yet cars registered in other parts of the county, such as Tucson, did need testing. The same is probably true for many of the less populated counties along the US Mexico border.