Are Illegal Aliens Responsible for Environmental Issues in Arizona?

[SOS2008]

And then you also have to consider that Mexico has about 90 million Catholics. AFAIK, birth control is still a no-no in that religion.

Aside from Bush's constant catering to business interests, here is another reason he wants amnesty--this has created an increased constituency for the Republican religious right-wing agenda.

 

[Pengwuino]

You do realize SOS that people from Mexico are much much more likely to vote for democrats then republicans...

and lol, since he can't go up for re-election... seems unlikely that he's looking at them for re-election.

 

[SOS2008]

You do realize SOS that people from Mexico are much much more likely to vote for democrats then republicans...

and lol, since he can't go up for re-election... seems unlikely that he's looking at them for re-election.

I'm referring not only to the 2004 election, but the goals of the Republican party in general. Regular churchgoers disproportionately voted for the president 60 percent, and Bush did make inroads among Latino voters, garnering 42 percent support (7 percent more than four years ago). Don't you think these things make a difference when the election is 51% to 48%? Still, I believe this is mostly economically motivated--not wanting to add to the ills of the economy as well as Bush's pro-business philosophy in general.

 

[hitssquad]

George P. Bush, future president?

You do realize SOS that people from Mexico are much much more likely to vote for democrats then republicans

http://www.isteve.com/2000_Even_Bush_Cannot_Lure_Hispanics.htm

--
In his search for Hispanic votes, the Texas governor spoke Spanish frequently at ethnic rallies. (One unkind British pundit claimed that Bush had more need of a translator when he spoke English.) He won much applause for empathizing with illegal aliens, as exemplified by his often-repeated line, "Family values don't stop at the Rio Grande." He had his handsome half-Mexican nephew George P. Bush campaign extensively for him. Bush's only policy initiative related to immigration was a promise to reform the Immigration & Naturalization Service so that it would provide faster and politer service to immigrants.
--

since he can't go up for re-election... seems unlikely that he's looking at them for re-election.

Party politics and dynasty politics. There are more Bushes to come, including future presidential hopeful George P. Bush, a favorite among latinos.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e2099.htm

--
''He just popped out of nowhere, and now it's like, 'Ooh, la-la!' '' said Angelo Figueroa, managing editor of People en Espanol, the popular magazine's Spanish-language offshoot. ''He's hunky. There's definitely a buzz.''
--

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh pff... damn it. Bush needs to get off his high horse about illegals. I really wonder how much experience he actually has with illegals or maybe this is all RNC controlled like SOS said for future republican candidates. Meh... oh well... guess that's the problem with democracy... everyone has a vote lol.

 

[SOS2008]

Center for Immigration Studies

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/markoped021804.html

There has been much well-deserved criticism of President George W. Bush's proposed amnesty and guestworker plan. But its possible effect on America's sovereignty has seldom been mentioned, even though that may be the most harmful in the long term.

Although the president's proposal is not specific to Mexico, it would benefit that nation the most. Some 5 million of the estimated 8 million illegal aliens here are Mexican, and Mexico would likely be one of the main sources of the new guestworkers and increased permanent immigration also called for in the Bush plan.

This is important because, in the 1990s, Mexico embarked on a campaign of extending its political authority into the United States - not just over Mexican immigrants, but also naturalized and native-born Americans of Mexican ancestry. There are 10 million Mexican-born people in this country (including 5 million illegals) plus more than 10 million additional Americans of Mexican descent.

Now, this is not the fantasy of reconquista - retaking the Southwest, lost in the 1846-'48 Mexican War. Instead, it is an attempt to set up a special status for people of Mexican origin, like the status Europeans enjoyed in China in the 19th century.

There's nothing secret about this effort. President Vicente Fox once referred to himself as president of all 118 million Mexicans - the 100 million in Mexico and the (then-)18 million in the United States, the majority of whom are U.S. citizens. And this is a long-term proposition for them: In June 2001, Juan Hernandez, former head of Fox's cabinet-level office for relations with Mexicans abroad, said on ABC's "Nightline," "I want the third generation, the seventh generation, I want them all to think, 'Mexico first.”

http://www.cis.org/topics/illegalimmigration.html

The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) estimates that in January of 2000 there were 7 million illegal aliens living in the United States, a number that is growing by half a million a year. Thus, the illegal-alien population in 2003 stands at at least 8 million. Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror.

…numerous American businesses are willing to hire cheap, compliant labor from abroad; such businesses are seldom punished because our country lacks a viable system to verify new hires' work eligibility. In addition, communities of recently arrived legal immigrants help create immigration networks used by illegal aliens and serve as incubators for illegal immigration, providing jobs, housing, and entree to America for illegal-alien relatives and fellow countrymen.

The standard response to illegal immigration has been increased border enforcement. And, in fact, such tightening of the border was long overdue. But there has been almost no attention paid to enforcement at worksites within the United States. Nor has there been any recognition that the networks created by high levels of legal immigration contribute to mass illegal immigration.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/release.html

WASHINGTON (July 12, 2001) — The Mexican government has expressed its strong support for an illegal-alien amnesty, and the Bush Administration is expected to propose a new Mexican guestworker program during President Fox’s state visit in September.

Among the report’s findings:

• Large-scale immigration from Mexico is a very recent phenomenon. In 1970, the Mexican immigrant population was less than 800,000, compared to nearly 8 million in 2000.
• Almost two-thirds of adult Mexican immigrants have not completed high school, compared to fewer than one in ten natives. Mexican immigrants now account for 22 percent of all high school dropouts in the labor force.
• Though most natives are more skilled and thus do not face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants, this study (consistent with previous research) indicates that the more than 10 million natives who lack a high school degree do face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.
• By increasing the supply of unskilled labor, Mexican immigration in the 1990s has reduced the wages of workers without a high school education by an estimated 5 percent. The workers affected are already the lowest-paid, comprising a large share of the working poor and those trying to move from welfare to work.
• This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output.

Guestworker programs are unlikely to solve the problems found in the study. By increasing the supply of unskilled labor, a guestworker program would still adversely effect the wages of the lowest-paid American workers. What’s more, unskilled guestworkers would be overwhelmingly poor or near-poor and thus would pay little in taxes and be likely to receive welfare on behalf of their U.S.-born children, just as many illegal immigrants do today. As a result, a guestworker program would almost certainly create significant fiscal costs. Thus, legalizing illegal aliens -- through a guestworker program, an amnesty, or some combination of the two -- would not change the fundamental problems associated with high levels of unskilled immigration.

A friend's son did not pass the new AIM test in high school, so probably won't be able to graduate--I wonder what he thinks he will do for a living.

 

[cronxeh]

wow if today's politics in America are based on looks, I seriously need to look for another planet

 

[Pengwuino]

Wait wait... so this a-hole thinks he's going to be able to order me around because my family is mexican?

 

[Huckleberry]

Of course not. It's just an attempt to bolster support in his own country, and maybe sap the US economy. Here is a profile of Vicente Fox that shows some of his personality traits.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/813206.stm
This is one half of the illegal immigration problem.

 

[moose]

How did I miss this thread...all I can say is that anyone and everyone who doesn't live near the border, has no clue how big the problem is. I wish that more than half my state spoke english :*(

 

[Pengwuino]

Pff, id say he IS the problem.

@cronxeh

See, this si why real problems can never get solved. People like you with no clue about what goes on here think its some sort of race problem. If these people were russians or french or germans coming across illegally, we'd be pissed off too. Half the problem is asians too but they have a much much harder time coming over and its much harder to control them because they come from a multitude of governments.

 

[SOS2008]

Of course not. It's just an attempt to bolster support in his own country, and maybe sap the US economy. Here is a profile of Vicente Fox that shows some of his personality traits.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/813206.stm
This is one half of the illegal immigration problem.

Wow, no wonder why Bush and Fox became such fast friends:

Mr Fox, the son of a wealthy Guanajuato farmer…now promoting himself as a down-to-earth man of the people…is known for his cowboy image and brash style.

…his critics say he is a personality, not a politician. "Fox is 90% image and 10% ideas"...

He can be controversial. During the electoral campaign he called his PRI rival Francisco Labastida a "sissy" and a transvestite, and was accused of flaunting his Catholicism when he used a banner of the Virgin of Guadeloupe, Mexico's most sacred religious symbol, during a political rally. He stopped using the banner.

He has also been criticised for his idea of privatising Petroleos de Mexico (PEMEX), considered by many Mexicans a symbol of their sovereignty.

Self-promotion - Mr Fox, 58 on election day, knows all about brand image - as a Coca Cola boss he ousted Pepsi as Mexico's top-selling soft drink.

Well except here at the end—he was actually a successful businessman so didn’t need Karl Rove to help him with oustings, selling ideas, etc.

 

[Pengwuino]

lol you guys and karl rove...

 

[cronxeh]

Pff, id say he IS the problem.

@cronxeh

See, this si why real problems can never get solved. People like you with no clue about what goes on here think its some sort of race problem. If these people were russians or french or germans coming across illegally, we'd be pissed off too. Half the problem is asians too but they have a much much harder time coming over and its much harder to control them because they come from a multitude of governments.

dont even try to classify me

everything is about race and around race in one way or the other. look at Canada - they only have 32 million people, with a territory that is slightly bigger than the US. Now look at Mexico and India - the population is out of control, partially thanks to global as well as local religion and other primal instincts.

what you think the US owes the Mexican citizens something? How about no. How about they take care of their own government and try to improve their quality of life before trying to flee an otherwise a free country, making the life of local populus along the border miserable

 

[Huckleberry]

what you think the US owes the Mexican citizens something? How about no. How about they take care of their own government and try to improve their quality of life before trying to flee an otherwise a free country, making the life of local populus along the border miserable

I agree with the US not owing anything to the Mexican citizens. The point is that they are taking care of their government and trying to improve their life. Their president, Vicente Fox supports the immigration of Mexicans to the US whether it is legal or illegal. Billions of US dollars are sent back into the Mexican economy every year because of Mexican workers in the US.
They improve their lives by finding a job here making minimum wage that pays them several times what they could make in Mexico. These people are risking their lives in some cases to come here and make a better life for their family. Until both nations have a vested interest in stopping immigration then the behavior will continue.

 

[Pengwuino]

@cronxeh

ha, classify you, this outta get good.

Just because you think everythings about race doesn't mean it is fortunately. When did i say the US owes the mexican citizens anything? And yes, exactly, they should improve their lives instead of illegally running across the border, thank you for completely agreeing with me yet acting like an ass about it.

 

[SOS2008]

@cronxeh

ha, classify you, this outta get good.

Just because you think everythings about race doesn't mean it is fortunately. When did i say the US owes the mexican citizens anything? And yes, exactly, they should improve their lives instead of illegally running across the border, thank you for completely agreeing with me yet acting like an ass about it.

Oh m'gosh I think we have a flame! Sounds like agreement then, that people do not have the right to enter another country illegally for any reason.

 

[Pengwuino]

What? what was the flame lol. Man, I am immune to these subtle or small flames

 

[cronxeh]

i was slightly drunk last night.. or was it this morning.. meh

so anyway. Mexicans and Indians have reproduced too much - simple, cold, and engineering-accurate. Control your population and you won't have poverty and despair

 

[SOS2008]

Just imagine what their lives must have been like if they decided that it was better to move to the US and risk everything and be homeless in a foreign country where they probably don't even speak the native language. I wouldn't like the bottles and feces in my backyard, but people have to eat and drink. Can anyone resent them for trying to improve their lives?

First of all, there are many countries with poverty and conditions far worse than in Mexico. Should the U.S. accept all these people because these people are suffering, or in the case of Mexicans, because they want the American Dream? As the standard of living falls due to these immense pressures on our system, I'm sure you won't mind all of us Americans coming across the northern border into Canada, right? Countries are supposed to be sovereign, meaning they have the right to control their borders and to choose who they will allow to enter. There is no excuse for the violation of this right of any country, even a wealthy country like the U.S., by any group of people just because they want a better life. I don't accept any such arguments for any reason.

 

[Kerrie]

First of all, there are many countries with poverty and conditions far worse than in Mexico. Should the U.S. accept all these people because these people are suffering, or in the case of Mexicans, because they want the American Dream? As the standard of living falls due to these immense pressures on our system, I'm sure you won't mind all of us Americans coming across the northern border into Canada, right? Countries are supposed to be sovereign, meaning they have the right to control their borders and to choose who they will allow to enter. There is no excuse for the violation of this right of any country, even a wealthy country like the U.S., by any group of people just because they want a better life. I don't accept any such arguments for any reason.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Further to add, american-born citizens should then be more grateful to live in such a wealthy nation. It's easier to complain about the politics but never give praise to what a great place it is to live. My relatives immigrated here in the early part of the century and during WWII. They worked for their citizenship too, not just took advantage of what America has to offer.

Are these illegal aliens coming here to America mostly just to work for higher wages and send the money back to their homeland, or do they want to establish some sort of citizenship eventually? I am all for the establishment of a new home in our country, but illegals immigrating just to send money out of our country seems harmful. Maybe I am wrong..

 

[SOS2008]

Oh pff... damn it. Bush needs to get off his high horse about illegals. I really wonder how much experience he actually has with illegals or maybe this is all RNC controlled like SOS said for future republican candidates. Meh... oh well... guess that's the problem with democracy... everyone has a vote lol.

There has been debate whether illegal immigrants should be allowed to vote. As hard as it is to imagine, it just shows the misguided thinking that exists in this country.

 

[Pengwuino]

They have been trying to get the California voters to approve a measure to give licenses to illegal aliens. The referendum failed and theri attempts to sneak the measures in through riders and such have also failed. I mean its so hard for me to comprehend the actual legal justification for this if there is any at all. They go "oh well, if they get licenses, that means they'll also pay insurance which means if you get into an accident, they will pay for the damage". Oh and magical bees will come out and fix your car right on the road gee golly gosh! I mean come on, there's a lot of US citizens who don't even bother getting licenses let alone getting insurance!

I mean pff, might as well try to convince me that we should hand out business licenses to drug dealers because "then they'll do it legally and pay taxes"

 

[SOS2008]

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Further to add, american-born citizens should then be more grateful to live in such a wealthy nation. It's easier to complain about the politics but never give praise to what a great place it is to live. My relatives immigrated here in the early part of the century and during WWII. They worked for their citizenship too, not just took advantage of what America has to offer.

Are these illegal aliens coming here to America mostly just to work for higher wages and send the money back to their homeland, or do they want to establish some sort of citizenship eventually? I am all for the establishment of a new home in our country, but illegals immigrating just to send money out of our country seems harmful. Maybe I am wrong..

I believe most would like permanent citizenship, but in the meantime they have loved ones at home that they send money to until they too can cross the border. Often the money earned was paid cash under the table--nothing withheld in taxes for services our country offers. Still it is the sovereign right of the U.S. to choose who can enter, meaning checking for criminal records, disease, income, education, etc. Per earlier posts, you will see that most of these aliens would not qualify via legal processing.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think getting permanent citizenship would easily be taken by them if they got the opportunity. It still allows them to go see ther family and they are legally allowed back intot he country. A lot of the money is sent back to their families but hey, their money, they worked for it, what can you do hehe. And SOS, they check your income and education level for citizenship approval?

 

[SOS2008]

I think getting permanent citizenship would easily be taken by them if they got the opportunity. It still allows them to go see ther family and they are legally allowed back intot he country. A lot of the money is sent back to their families but hey, their money, they worked for it, what can you do hehe. And SOS, they check your income and education level for citizenship approval?

Try getting into any country--like Canada. When they had a large number of immigrants coming from Hong Kong, these people had to show lots of assets. Some countries are much more strict than the U.S. -- The U.S. allows large numbers of people to immigrate legally each year. Yes, countries want immigrants that will contribute as citizens, not just go on welfare as these folks from Mexico per the quotes provided above. I personally believe this to be prudent and justified.

 

[Huckleberry]

First of all, there are many countries with poverty and conditions far worse than in Mexico. Should the U.S. accept all these people because these people are suffering, or in the case of Mexicans, because they want the American Dream? As the standard of living falls due to these immense pressures on our system, I'm sure you won't mind all of us Americans coming across the northern border into Canada, right? Countries are supposed to be sovereign, meaning they have the right to control their borders and to choose who they will allow to enter. There is no excuse for the violation of this right of any country, even a wealthy country like the U.S., by any group of people just because they want a better life. I don't accept any such arguments for any reason.

I feel that you are misunderstanding me. I do not condone illegal immigration of any sort. I think that this countries legal immigration laws are overly lax. That is my point of view and the point of view of a majority of US citizens.
There is always more than one point of view to consider. Consider for a moment how you would feel if you were a Mexican living in poverty in Mexico. They also have a sense of nationalism and their government supports immigration to the US by any means. Why would they choose to honor the laws of the US over their own nation?
I believe it is important not to cast blame on the Mexican people who are just doing what anyone would do in their shoes. The problem is a lack of cooperation between governments to create and enforce laws that are actually effective in controlling illegal immigration.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't think anyone blames the Meixcan people. I for one blame their government. You can't blame people for their backwards corrupt government... but then again too bad they don't 'rise up' and kick their government up the butt. Unfortunately a lot of Mexicans benefit off of the Mexican governments policies of telling people to go to the US and take money so i don't see them doing that anytime soon. Really sucks when a government can be so screwed up yet convince hteir population that its nto ther fault and they can help their cause by going and ruining another country.

 

[SOS2008]

I feel that you are misunderstanding me. I do not condone illegal immigration of any sort. I think that this countries legal immigration laws are overly lax. That is my point of view and the point of view of a majority of US citizens.
There is always more than one point of view to consider. Consider for a moment how you would feel if you were a Mexican living in poverty in Mexico. They also have a sense of nationalism and their government supports immigration to the US by any means. Why would they choose to honor the laws of the US over their own nation?
I believe it is important not to cast blame on the Mexican people who are just doing what anyone would do in their shoes. The problem is a lack of cooperation between governments to create and enforce laws that are actually effective in controlling illegal immigration.

I do not blame those people for wanting a better life. I do blame them for breaking laws, and not respecting our sovereignty. Is this the kind of person you want as your new neighbor? What other laws are okay to break in pursuit of a better life? If you go to Mexico and break their laws, I hear it's a really pleasant experience. As a country, we must have some kind of cap on the number of people who enter, and we must have some kind of qualifications for the people who enter.

Most of all I blame Bush. His proposal to to ignore caps or qualifications and just extend blanket amnesty caused the number of illegals to sky-rocket even further. This is so irresponsible, I have no words for it.

 

[Pengwuino]

Feel like joining those minutemen dudes :D

 

[Huckleberry]

I do not blame those people for wanting a better life. I do blame them for breaking laws, and not respecting our sovereignty.

I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.

The issue is very complicated. It's not economical to imprison them. It's not ethical to shoot them. They have no money so they cannot be fined. All we can do is send them back to Mexico where they will most likely try to cross the border again. Border Patrol cannot cover all the territory along the border. (although I'm not certain how hard they are trying because I've seen immigrants walking along the roads several times).

We could actually try enforcing the laws we already have and not allow businesses to hire illegal immigrants. This also would have huge consequences. The reports I've read said there are 8 million illegal immigrants in this country (not all of them from Mexico). If the US enforced this policy then huge numbers of people would be out of work. All these people are not going to just walk back home. Crime will rise significantly.

No matter how you look at it, there will be problems. Its a grey issue and needs a gradual solution. I would be honored to have a legal Mexican immigrant as my neighbor. Having spent 3 months living in Mexico, never before have I seen a kinder, more accepting culture. I would respect an illegal immigrant acting on their human right to better their lives. I would not help them (besides water and food if they asked), but I also would not hinder them. I would ask the government to create an effective solution.

 

[Kerrie]

I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.

The issue is very complicated. It's not economical to imprison them. It's not ethical to shoot them. They have no money so they cannot be fined. All we can do is send them back to Mexico where they will most likely try to cross the border again. Border Patrol cannot cover all the territory along the border. (although I'm not certain how hard they are trying because I've seen immigrants walking along the roads several times).

We could actually try enforcing the laws we already have and not allow businesses to hire illegal immigrants. This also would have huge consequences. The reports I've read said there are 8 million illegal immigrants in this country (not all of them from Mexico). If the US enforced this policy then huge numbers of people would be out of work. All these people are not going to just walk back home. Crime will rise significantly.

No matter how you look at it, there will be problems. Its a grey issue and needs a gradual solution. I would be honored to have a legal Mexican immigrant as my neighbor. Having spent 3 months living in Mexico, never before have I seen a kinder, more accepting culture. I would respect an illegal immigrant acting on their human right to better their lives. I would not help them (besides water and food if they asked), but I also would not hinder them. I would ask the government to create an effective solution.

i would think if i enter into another country, if i break their laws, i will go to prison/jail/pay fines, etc...if they are "sneaking" into our country, it's obvious they know it's illegal. and isn't it already illegal for businesses to illegal immigrants? whenever i have gotten a new job, the application asks if i am legally able to work in the united states, and then am required to provide a copy of my social security card.

i hear australia is super tough to immigrate too, i looked at the immigration process for Canada as well, tough also. can't blame them for looking for a better life, but you should have to earn the legal status, not just take it.

 

[Huckleberry]

As a US citizen it is in my best interests to agree with you. But what is to be done with the 8 million illegal immigrants already in this country? No solution is going to be easy. I also believe that a human beings right to improve their lives superceeds the laws of a nation.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

This document declares that it is a human right to seek Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Human rights belong to people of all nations. This document also states that when these things are threatened it is the right of the governed to reorganize their government to best suit their needs. It is our responsibility to come up with a solution and not to cast blame on peoples of other nations for following in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. This document is part of the foundation of this nation.

 

[SOS2008]

Even with the new Patriot Act illegals can buy property in the U.S., because like the I-9 requirements, they only need to present documents, but the documents are not checked in any way with regard to fraud (and for that matter, voter registration too). This is where it would be so easy to start solving a lot of the problem. But Americans need to be educated on these matters and then demand these things from their representatives.

As for the over-all cost illegals are causing to the legal citizenry, we could have easily built a Great Wall of China, and should have done so a long time ago. What gets me is how Bush is the great warrior of terrorism. How can this be the case when he refuses to secure the most obvious thing--our borders?

 

[cronxeh]

one logical conclusion is that its not about terrorists. if it was, there would be a new geography and geology of tora bora